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Interview journalist; “Het Binnenhof” Newspaper, Overvoorde, The Hague, Holland, 4th July 1985
Shri Mataji: The man who was here. He has been to all these fake gurus. He has seen all that nonsense. He has seen everything. It is very easy for him to see me now, because you see if you have not been to all these then you start… you cannot understand it so well. So that’s a very big point about it.
G: He said there is a book called Spiritual Superman.
Shri Mataji: (Laughing.) Yes, he himself told me.
G: We have to find out.
(Short discussion about a book)
Shri Mataji: So.
Journalist: So well I may resemble a little bit to this colleague journalist of mine in this sense that I have also been searching and I have had a little bit of practice with transcendental meditation and I went to “Baghwan” in the United States and read the books of Krishnamurti and so on.
Sri Mataji: So you are also alright! (Laughing) Ah, I saw it. That’s better. Then you can see the contrast. The reality is very different.
Journalist: But I, up till now, I find some beauty in all of these movements.
Shri Mataji: It’s a camouflage. Of course they have to beautify otherwise they can’t attract; very clever, very professional. Like in India, they wanted to smuggle whisky and they used Gita books. (Editor: The Bhagavad Gita – an Indian holy book.) They made Gita books, you see, beautiful Gita books and inside the Gita books it was all hollow. So they put the whisky bottles inside, you see, and naturally no customs is going to open the Gita book to see what is inside. So they have to have a very good cover to hide something like that.
Journalist: But you don’t see any value in any of these movements?
Shri Mataji: It’s minus, it has a minus value.
Journalist: It has a minus value? Can you explain this?
Shri Mataji: Yes, but you need not write the names, all right, because I don’t want to be in trouble with these horrible people. You see now, anything that you do… whatever I have seen of the disciples who come from there. You must see; the proof of the pudding is in the eating of it, isn’t it. Now if something, a cake, looks very nice and then a person eats that and he dies, then there is poison in it, logically. What happens, those people who have been to these gurus, it is very difficult to raise their Kundalini. They catch on the voids… (Silent)
Journalist: So in your experience it is more difficult to raise the Kundalini with people who have been to…
Shri Mataji: …to these kinds of gurus. I mean to a real guru is different. But to these money-making gurus, you see, we can call them money-making gurus. Very difficult!
Journalist: But how can you see the difference between a fake guru and a real guru?
Shri Mataji: First criteria you cannot pay for it. Ninety nine percent will drop out. (Silent)… Secondly, the life style of the person. He is a guru, you see, (looking in a book), life style; if they are hankering after Rolls Royces and things… I mean they call themselves ‘sadus’ and ‘sanyasis’ (Editor: Holy people who are detached from material things) and they take from you all your diamonds, all, everything that you have, all your property. Their interest is only how to grab your money. They have no household of their own, so called. On the contrary, the saint himself spends money, normally. A real saint will spend his own money.
Journalist: As you do for example?
Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon?
Journalist: As you do for example?
Shri Mataji: Of course I do. I do it. I used to do much more, now not so much. But I used to do much more before. And also that such a person works on… Now, for example, this boy got hurt so I treated him. Supposing your Kundalini doesn’t come up, I‘ll have to work on you. The guru works and not the disciple. They make the disciples do everything like; you say this mantra for so many years, do this thing and do that. All the effort is made by the disciple and not by the guru. It is on the contrary.
Journalist: So you do the work?
Shri Mataji: I do the work and they do the enjoyment! (Laughing)
Journalist: And yesterday we didn’t, we didn’t work also?
Shri Mataji: No, not. No, no. I just, you see… Because if I say I am doing it, they will not like it. So I said; you are doing it, you see. Otherwise they feel hurt. In the beginning you shouldn’t say that I am doing it for you. Who are you to do? They are all children after all. By putting these hands, can you raise the Kundalini? You cannot. You know that. I was raising it, but they were putting and helping me. That’s all.
Journalist: Yes, so it is just your presence that works.
Shri Mataji: No, I have to work hard. I was burning my fingers. I was raising my Kundalini. I was trying to break it through, but which you could not see. Also some who had their eyes open could have seen.
Journalist: Well, I didn’t open my eyes.
Sri Mataji: Ah yes, that’s why. But I was putting water in my hand, pulling it down, my feet were heated up. You see, I was absorbing all the heat. I was doing everything…. myself. I have to work. Not only that, but now supposing the Kundalini is not stationed, is not established then I have to work. I work for hours, day in and day out. Sometimes I have only two hours sleep.
Journalist: Only two hours sleep?
Sri Mataji: Sometimes
Journalist: And you work hours and hours to raise the Kundalini in yourself?
Shri Mataji: Yes, I mean somebody… You see now, somebody is suffering, there is a problem, somebody has this, that, they come to me; I work on them, individually as well as en masse; and I travel; and I am a 63 year old woman.
Journalist: And you do it out of love?
Sri Mataji: Of course. Love is so binding. So compelling…. That’s my job.
Journalist:h Yes. And you started not so long ago.
Shri Mataji: No, not much. I had to do one thing, was to break the seventh chakra. That was important because that seventh chakra was not broken.
Journalist: Was not broken with you?
G: On the cosmic level.
Sri Mataji: Cosmically, cosmically.
Shri Mataji: Because the sixth chakra was established by Christ, it was all right; but the seventh was to be established; and when I did that, on 5th May in 1970, then I started. Because…
Journalist: The 5th May 1970.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Because, you see, ‘en masse’ realisation could not be done without that. That’s why.
Journalist: I repeat in order not to make mistakes. The sixth chakra was broken by Christ. You said…
Shri Mataji: …was established…
Journalist: …was established by Christ. And you yourself established the seventh chakra?
Shri Mataji: If you put in that it may hurt their ego, so don’t put it that way. You can say in the third person that the seventh chakra was to be established.
Journalist: Yes. And this happened in 1970.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Journalist: And since then….?
Shri Mataji: Since then I started my work in the public.
Journalist: There is this term enlightenment. Do you use this term also?
Shri Mataji: Yes, enlightenment is the same.
Shri Mataji: You see this term is ancient. It comes from tradition. And this is used by everyone. Isn’t it?
Journalist: So I can describe you as an enlightened person?
Shri Mataji: Of course, minimum… I have to be that. But enlightenment is also, can be just a myth. From where do you know if a person is enlightened or not, is the point?
Journalist: I don’t know.
Shri Mataji: From the people who have got it, because you may not understand me, but you can understand them. They are like you. They are seekers and they have got it now. They have got the knowledge. They know what it is. They can raise the Kundalini. That’s the point.
And in modern times there are many signs by which you can make it out. For example, there are some photographs. (To someone else) Bring the book, I think… There are many photographs of mine which the camera has taken, not me, the camera has taken, where there are lights on top of my head, shafts of light; shafts of light completely covering my body. There is light, a complete sun in my hand, a complete sun in my hand; the light is going round me.
Also our astrology, in Indian astrology, the… what do you call… the system I told you yesterday; it’s called as “Krishnamurti Pandati”. It is a style of one Krishnamurti, a great astrologer, who found out this method. They have found out what I am. So there are many ways, but the fake gurus have changed all their birth dates, because most of them are anti-Christ.
Journalist: Are anti-Christ?
Shri Mataji: They are mostly anti-Christ
Journalist: They are the Anti-Christ?
Shri Mataji: They are the Anti-Christ.
Journalist: Are the Anti-Christ
Shri Mataji: The Anti-Christ
Journalist: Yes. So the examples of gurus I have visited, I gave, you think they are the Anti-Christ?
Shri Mataji: They are the Anti-Christ
Journalist: Well, that is frightening, isn’t it?
Shri Mataji: It is. I don’t want to say – that’s why. That’s why I said “mostly”, you see, I use softer words, but it is frightening. So far, from Rajneesh, we have not been able to save many people, and he has an effect on the brain. Mahesh Yogi makes people epileptic.
Journalist: Mahesh Yogi makes people ….?
Shri Mataji: …epileptic, epilepsy. You need not say Mahesh Yogi, but I have known people who have epilepsy; many people who have epilepsy. The man who was running this organisation in Runnock in Scotland, ‘flying Scot business’, he himself was epileptic; Peter Pearce. His wife was the grand-daughter of a duke, epileptic; her daughter, epileptic. They became paupers. They came to me. I have cured them of course, but because the husband became insolvent he was sent away to South Africa. He was no more… but the wife is there, now she is in India. And she published papers that this fellow raped her when she was in. But nobody listens to it, nothing. They are so mesmerized. And they frighten… actually such people become frightened, very frightened people. They mesmerise them. We call it in our country; this ‘knowledge of the dead’, we can say, the ‘science of the dead’, science of the dead; “Prita Vidya”, “Spashana Vidya”, “Bhuta Vidya” we call it – by which they put something in you or in the disciple or in anyone, they can do it, and possess you.
Journalist: And you call this the ‘science of the dead’, the fake gurus…
Shri Mataji: The ‘science of the dead’, I mean, I am just translating it, but it is called Preta Vidya, Spashana Vidya. Spashana means… what do you say to ‘Spashana’ in English? It’s where you burn the bodies of the dead, Spashana.
Shri Mataji: Cremation, cremation, that’s it.
Journalist: May I ask, since you started to work in 1970, have you succeeded in giving enlightenment to other persons?
Shri Mataji: Of course! Thousands!
Journalist: Thousands. I remember you said yesterday there was a farmer in India.
Shri Mataji: Yes. He has done it to ten thousand very good people, but recently I received a message that it’s all together forty-thousand people.
Journalist: And this farmer, he got his enlightenment from you?
Shri Mataji: From me.
Journalist: So you must have given enlightenment to ten-thousand people, may be a hundred thousand.
Shri Mataji: Yes, I have. Yes, yes. But now out of this forty-thousand, only ten thousand have established.
Journalist: This I don’t understand.
Shri Mataji: You see, awakening I have given; awakening is possible. To establish it, to master it, you have to spend some time. So some people quickly take to it, some people linger on. So it takes time. So the other people, who have not yet realised to that extent, will have to come back. And they’ll come back again. So like yesterday now for example, say, we got about two hundred people realised, they felt it, but the Kundalini will go back and attend to all other problems, everything. Now such a person if he doesn’t come to us, and try to understand himself fully, and to master the whole thing; what we call the deftness of it; then he will go down again. Not to the same state but quite low. He has to come back and do it and establish it.
Journalist: Yes, yes.
Shri Mataji: It is like that. So yoga means union with the divine; one. But also has another meaning, “yukti”, meaning the trick, or you can say the deftness, to know how to handle this power. That’s very important, so that you are established fully. In the first state, like yesterday, they all became a state we call as Nirvichar Samadhi, meaning thoughtless awareness, aware but thoughtless. That‘s the first stage when you cross this. When you cross this and establish there fully, then we call it Nirvikalpa Samadhi. That is the state where you become doubtlessly aware. Then you can give realisation to people, you can cure people, you become just a master.
Journalist: But the state we arrived in yesterday, how do you call that?
Shri Mataji: What, what’s that? Nirvichara. It is called thoughtless awareness. What Zen wanted to do; Zen tried to do that.
Journalist: But it seems so unbelievable that it’s as simple as that?
Shri Mataji: Yes it is!
Shri Mataji: Because it is so vital.
Shri Mataji: It is so vital. Vital. What do you say in your language for vital? It is so important. Vital means that which is important for life. Vital. Vital. It is so vital, and anything that is vital has to be simple. For example our breathing is so simple.
Shri Mataji: If you had to go to a guru, pay money for our breathing, how many would exist?
Shri Mataji: How many would exist, if we had to pay for our breathing.
Journalist: How many?
R: Exist on the earth. If you had to pay for your breathing, for your heartbeat not many people would be able to live.
Shri Mataji: Whatever is vital; whatever is important for life has to be easy.
Journalist: Yes Yes. Sure.
Shri Mataji: And this is so important, it has to be easy.
Journalist: So what happened yesterday was a state of thoughtless awareness.
Shri Mataji: And now it will be doubtless awareness.
Journalist: This will be the next.
Shri Mataji: You can achieve it in a month’s time.
Journalist: But don’t we need your presence then for this.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, nothing.
Journalist: Only for the first.
Shri Mataji: Even for the first you don’t need. Even my photograph can do the job. My photograph has also got vibrations. They all use my photograph. You can do it yourself.
Journalist: And then after this stage of doubtless awareness there is another stage?
Shri Mataji: Then you go to doubtless awareness. Then you become the light yourself.
Journalist: After that, another state, another stage?
Shri Mataji: No. After that you become the light, you start giving it to others.
Journalist: That means that you arrive in the same state as you are in?
Shri Mataji: That I can’t say (Laughing) I won’t say that. All right keep it that way. (Laughing) It is not the same though, but you rise very high.
Journalist: And there is some technique, I understood, that your disciples… we may call them your disciples?
Shri Mataji: Yes, children, my children.
Journalist: Your children.
Shri Mataji: All right.
Journalist: And they call you Mother.
Shri Mataji: They call me Mother. That is much easier.
Shri Mataji: That’s what I am. I am not a guru.
G: All the journalists in Italy recognise Shri Mataji as the Great Mother, the Grande Madre.
Shri Mataji: And all the television. Yes in Italy they did. In Italy they did.
R: He has got a copy of the Corriere della Sera (Editor: name of Italian newspaper).
Journalist: And I read in these articles also that you cure people of physical illnesses and mental illnesses.
Shri Mataji: Of course, that’s the minimum. You yourself can cure yourself. Your Kundalini does that and you can cure others once you are a master of that.
Journalist: But I suppose you cannot cure anybody.
Shri Mataji: Yes you can. Why not? (Laughing)
Shri Mataji: You should see me curing! Yes, you can. Cancer, all these things are curable. After all what are these centres? They are the subtle centres, looking after all other gross centres in the body. And once you awaken those centres, it works out. It is very simple. It is like, say, a tree is now sick, or a leaf is sick, what do you do? Pour something on the roots. This is the knowledge of the roots. And once the roots are nourished, the tree becomes all right. Isn’t it simple?
Journalist: Yes. But, so for example a person has cancer and you cure him or her by raising the Kundalini in this person.
Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s all. That’s all. Even my photograph may be able to cure. You must know the technique, how to manoeuvre this power, that’s all. Then you can do it even if I am not there, doesn’t matter, you can use my photograph. And nowadays I am not curing, all these people are curing. I am not curing people; just they are using my photograph.
Journalist: Yes. And this technique has always existed, for ten thousand years, you said yesterday.
Shri Mataji: Much more but for very few people because the seventh chackra was not broken. This was the big problem. There was no en masse realisation, one or two persons; and it was secretive.
R: Strasbourg was a good example of you not giving the realisation to people. In Strasbourg, was an example…Shri Mataji was supposed to be there but she couldn’t. She had to go to America, and some other yogis, Sahaja Yogis, they did the program and ten people stuck to Sahaja Yoga.
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, yes. Two hundred people in Strasbourg. Yes it is true. I mean everywhere.
R: Ten new people came out of it
Sri Mataji: They have come now. Yes. Good. And they‘ll come up very well, I am sure. And once ten are established then you can establish many more.
Journalist: This means that you are a great person like Christ.
Sri Mataji: Must be something. Christ has promised he will send somebody. Didn’t he?
Shri Mataji: We don’t look for that. It’s like that; has to be. He has to keep his promise.
Journalist: But up till now you are not recognised by many people yet!
Shri Mataji: Because I didn’t say that. I don’t want to say it. Its better you find it out. Because it’s no use saying; Christ said only,” I am the light, I am the path”, which he is. That he’s the Son of God, which he is. They crucified Him! I don’t want to get crucified. I have to get the work done. What does it matter whatever I am? It makes no difference to me. Whatever I am, I am. And on the contrary by telling that, what I am, if it is going to harm your ascent, its better not to tell, you see, keep it a secret. Let them find out.
Journalist: But surely this movement around you is going to grow and grow in the coming years.
Shri Mataji: Of course, it is growing very fast. It is growing, of course. But reality takes time you see. To produce plastic flowers is very easy, but to produce a real flower is difficult. So it takes time, and should take time, to mature. I have all the patience. It’s not cheap popularity. It’s not cheap popularity. It‘s not that you want to make some money out of many disciples. We want real flowers. And that will take time no doubt.
Journalist: And your family, your husband, and your children and grand-children, who know you for a very long time already – how do they react?
Shri Mataji: They are very good. My husband came this time to Paris. My husband said that transformation is the only way. And he said people must be transformed. That’s what he said, openly.
Journalist: He said it to… When?
Shri Mataji: This time he came to Paris and he addressed some Sahaja Yogis because there was a book that was inaugurated there.
Journalist: And your children and grandchildren.
Shri Mataji: My grandchildren are great. They know all about it already. They are very great souls.
Journalist: How old are your grandchildren?
Shri Mataji: The eldest grandchild is about fourteen years. Fourteen then thirteen, I think then ten and eight. They are all great people, already.
So many children are there. Like a little boy, yesterday, Michael, was there when I came from the train and when I got down, he said “Mother, why don’t you kill all the demons?” He was at the programme, he didn’t come inside. So I said “Why didn’t you come in?” He said “I was looking after the demons. I was trying to keep them out.” They don’t think about themselves, they think about the world all the time.
Journalist: At the moment in the world there is a great fear of destruction and world wars and disasters…
Shri Mataji: This is our mental projection. Through our mental projection… it’s a linear movement, you see, and it recoils. In a way it’s good because people will look into themselves; why? That’s how the seeking has started also in a big way. And the time has come also. But the destruction will be from within. I don’t think from without, from within. As in America it has started, people are getting diseases, this, that, people are getting mad, because in freedom we have become abandoned people, absolutely abandoned.
Journalist: But don’t you think that your presence in the world is too late, I mean that you won’t be able to stop the…
Shri Mataji: That I will, I think I may be able to stop it. You have to make it mature. You see people have to go to the brink because a human being is not an easy thing, you see, to control. They have made a mess of all the prophets, all the incarnations; already made a mess. So we have to make them mature, you see. Supposing I tell you; “Don’t go to this guru” you won’t listen. So it is better, all right you go there, get hit, come back and then get it. You see, because a human being is not easy. They have to mature themselves. The first thing I did was to go to America in 1973. They wouldn’t accept it. They said, “No you must take some money, otherwise nobody is going to accept it.”
Journalist: You were not accepted by the immigration?
Shri Mataji: In the beginning, they did not. Now, of course, because now they are hit by all the gurus, they have been lynched completely, they have no money left with them, they are in a big mess, they are all sick. Now it’s all right.
Journalist: And you have a lot of popularity there also.
Shri Mataji: That’s quite a lot, but I would say not so much, because they are still very immature, I think. But in Italy I am very good. India of course is the maximum, and England. In Brussels we had so many people, I was surprised. Australia. Australians are…
Journalist: Are you able to see in the future also, to predict?
Shri Mataji: You see, about human beings, how can you predict?
Journalist: You cannot.
Shri Mataji: They have freedom. If they want to destroy themselves you can’t stop them, they have got the freedom. But I can see now that it is now working out. Now people are coming to their senses. I can see that, it’s much better. The situation is much better. India is very easy because they know all about it. It’s very easy to deal with Indians. But in the West people have to still learn through mistakes, otherwise they do not learn.
Journalist: How many children do you think you have in the world at the moment?
Shri Mataji: I can’t say.
Shri Mataji: In thousands, I can’t say.
G: Thousands and thousands.
Shri Mataji: Thousands. I can’t say.
Journalist: But not millions yet.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no. Not in millions. A million would be a hundred thousand?
All: One thousand, thousand.
Shri Mataji: No, no. According to John already the number is over, according to John in the Bible. (Laughing) He has made a very small number (Laughing). But I don’t think so. There are many more who should get it. But I don’t think everybody will, I don’t think so.
Journalist: Could you tell me something about myself?
Sri Mataji: About you? Alright. You take off your shoes. It would be better if you sit there facing me. Now, put your hands towards me. G., you go at the back and see. Alright; both the feet on the ground.
(Feeling his vibrations) Left; put his right to the left. Now, because you went to all these gurus, you see, the left side is weak. It’s gone. Yes, please. (Rubbing her hands) Yes.
(Short conversation with a yogini about a miracle photograph)
Shri Mataji: (To yogi working on journalist) Ah. Better?
G: It is cooler but still. Left heart is the worst.
Shri Mataji: See on his head. No thought, gone beyond thoughts. No thought. Tie him up. Just tie him up….
Left Agnya. Give him a bandhan. Right Agnya; left Agnya. You have to forgive; you have to forgive every one. Forgive all… Put your left hand like this. Left like that, let’s see.
Better. Feeling the cool breeze?
Shri Mataji: The left hand?
Journalist: I think so.
Shri Mataji: And the right hand?
Journalist: No, it’s rather warm.
Shri Mataji: Not so much. All right, so you put your right hand like this and say; right hand towards me, right hand; in the way you were putting, and left hand like this. Like this, a little higher. Ask him to raise the hand, right hand. And left hand like this. Now, now you have to say “Mother I forgive every one.” Just say.
Journalist: I forgive every one.
Shri Mataji: Again. Mother I forgive every one, three times.
Journalist: Mother, I forgive every one.
Shri Mataji: Again
Journalist: Mother, I forgive every one.
Shri Mataji: From your heart you have to say, all right, again, say it.
Journalist: Mother, I forgive every one.
Shri Mataji: All right? It just works. Ah! And you’ll feel the joy also. (Laughing) It is so simple. But in this world people don’t even recognize the category of seeker. They don’t recognize even that part, you see. This is the problem. Ah! Now! All these cults, all these sects, all these gurus, all these, they have really harmed every one. All the seekers they have attacked, that’s the main point. Ah! Now! Got it! Well. Good? May God bless you. You’ve got it. May God bless you. You’ve got it now.
Journalist: Yes, well I may not be able to recognize it myself? But…
Shri Mataji: Yes that’s it! You have to recognize yourself, to feel it yourself. It’s the all-pervading power. Now only you have to master it, that’s all. Now just…(Pointing to local yogi) he is here. He’ll help you. They are so many. Now we are sending some people, Dr W, Dr B, they’ll be coming next Saturday, Sunday. (To local yogi) So you can all make them masters, you see. Get the other fellow also, he is very good. Both of them are seekers. They are seekers, out and out, I tell you, out and out seekers. Nothing! It’s a category, it’s a special category. They are called as the “men of God” by Blake. Blake said, “Men of God will become prophets and they will have powers to make others prophets.
Sri Mataji: He was very precise, in everything. Even he has described my house. He has described the ashrams. So many things he has described, you can’t imagine. He was here, like Markandeya. Talking about him, see the vibrations! Talking about him, just see the vibrations.
G: You can feel it.
Shri Mataji: You can see it! Talking about William Blake, you see. Just see what a great… He was Markandeya! Great! Ha! Saint Michael.
Journalist: William Blake was a poet, I think?
Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon?
Journalist: Wasn’t he a poet, William Blake?
Shri Mataji: What did he say?
All: A poet.
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. He was Saint Michael who took birth as William Blake.
Journalist: He was Saint Michael?
G: An incarnation of…
Shri Mataji: Saint Michael, Bairava.
Journalist: Of Saint Michael? And Saint Michael?
Shri Mataji: Re-reincarnated.
Journalist: Who lived?
Shri Mataji: Who lives in the heavens, we can say.
Journalist: Yes, but who lived on earth in which period? Saint Michael.
G: One hundred years ago. William Blake.
Journalist: Yes but. When he lived on earth as Saint Michael it was…?
Shri Mataji: He is a ‘chiranjiva’, he never dies, an eternal being.
Guido: He was William Blake.
Journalist: Yes but before, the first time he was on earth…?
R: Markandeya was also…
Shri Mataji: Markandeya
Guido: Fourteen thousand years back.
Shri Mataji: Markandeya.
Journalist: Can you say it in Dutch?
R: Saint Michael is an eternal being who incarnates sometimes in a form, a human form, like Markandeya, William Blake. But it is an eternal figure.
Shri Mataji: He is the saint of England. (Laughing) Imagine. Saint Michael is the Saint of England.
R: Left side.
Shri Mataji: See? And he really lashed them one by one. They said he is crazy, I mean, Saint Michael talked in his own language, naturally. It is difficult to talk in the human language, isn’t it? I have learned it.
Ah! Very good! Such silence!
Shri Mataji: Silence inside.
Journalist: In me also?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course, there is silence. There is no thought. Watch me without thinking…. No thought….Good…
I must congratulate you for getting such good journalists, I tell you. (Laughing) Normally journalists are headaches, I tell you. No seekers come to me. You see, journalists if they are seekers you can talk to them, otherwise what do you talk to these materialistic people?
Done! It is very good. May God bless you.
So I’ll give you this photograph. One of them is like this, but there is one with a whole column like that, you see.
Journalist: Yes, yes.
Shri Mataji: The whole column.
Journalist: And in this photograph you can see light coming out from you?
Shri Mataji: Yes
Journalist: Must I describe it like that?
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. Now let me see. Here it is.
R: They have investigated the films and you can see that nothing has been done to the films. These things have appeared
Shri Mataji: This is light coming from the top. There are seven photographs like that. All right I’ll give you. What’s his name? What’s the name?
Shri Mataji: William. William Blake! (Laughing) Ah! Good.
G: Do you write in a newspaper or magazine?
Journalist: In a daily newspaper.
G: A daily newspaper, in the Hague?
Shri Mataji: You must really point it out to them about these anti-Christs, you see, and paying them money. You must warn them, on your own. Because you see, they won’t like it from me. But if you say they will. It’s a fact. You see these people are lynching, and torturing, one by one. There’s one fellow, Ramdas; now yesterday somebody talked about Ramdas, you see, what a funny mantra he has given him. And his Kundalini could not come out.
Journalist: But to try to get it clear for me. Kundalini is a, you may say, a life power?
Shri Mataji: It is the power of desire, pure desire; the power of pure desire.
Journalist: Power of pure desire to the divine?
Shri Mataji: To the divine. Power of pure desire; and the desire, the pure desire is to be one with the divine.
Shri Mataji: That’s the seekers desire.
Journalist: Yes. And what you do is awaken…
Shri Mataji: …that Kundalini.
Journalist: That desire
Shri Mataji: That is desire, to manifest itself.
Journalist: Yes. And you did it last night?
Shri Mataji: Last night.
Journalist: And you did it with me again?
Shri Mataji: Again. And today I’ll do again and establish it.
Journalist: Yes. Now I must be completely honest of course.
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course.
Journalist: Of course. Now, when I am with you and I talk with you I feel you are a very nice and sweet person but when I was in this chair and you did these things with me, I did not recognise the silence or the joy or the bliss you were talking about. What… How does that happen?
Shri Mataji: See it always happens with the western people mostly, because first they get it in the brain. First you understand through your brains, because your brains are over developed. While in India they understand through the heart. See now you are understanding through your brain and it will also be expressed in your heart. The heart has to be opened up a little bit. It will open out.
Journalist: And it will open out when I continue to…
Shri Mataji: Yes, you should understand how to open the heart. You have to say, “I am the Spirit”. I am the Spirit. I am the Spirit.
Journalist: May I write a little bit?
(Tape switched off for a while)
Shri Mataji: Put your hand towards the photograph, you will be all right. The photograph also has vibrations. I am the Spirit. Mother, I am the Spirit. Assure yourself.
Journalist: Yes. Mother I am the Spirit.
Shri Mataji: Mother, I am the Spirit. I am the joy.
Journalist: I am the joy.
Shri Mataji: I am the Spirit.
Journalist: I am the Spirit. You feel something now?
Shri Mataji: (Laughing.) You see, it is… I am doing it but whatever is in you is also working it, isn’t it? I can’t do this to this sofa, can I? (Laughing) I cannot do it to another person; I can only do it to a seeker. So you have done something to yourself also.
G: Shri Mataji can see your Kundalini.
Shri Mataji: That’s how.
Journalist: Is that true?
Shri Mataji: Yes. I can, but you need not see it, you should become, is the point. Seeing is not the point. Don’t see. You should become. When you become you have the powers, you don’t have to see. Just work it out.
Journalist: Yes. So but I have to do this technique that you did yesterday?
Shri Mataji: No they will tell you. You come and ask him, because now that’s over
Journalist: No but just shortly to point it out to my readers.
Shri Mataji: They can take it from my photograph. Very simple is… the photograph has got vibrations. Alright? So you have to put … depending on what sort of a personality you are. You have to come and ask them of course, that is very important. It is a collective happening. It’s not a single person working at home. It’s not. But on the photograph, if you come, and ask him, he’ll tell you if you are a left-sided or a right-sided person. What sort of a balance you have to take. It takes hardly any time, you see. And then they’ll explain. Then you become an expert. Then you can tell also. Once you become an expert, we call you a Sahaja Yogi. Then you can tell others.
Journalist: But to state it shortly, it is a technique…
Shri Mataji: You see, first of all it’s spontaneous.
Journalist: …which works by your grace.
Srhi Mataji: Yes. Supposing you take my photograph and publish it, you ask them to put their hands towards my photograph…
Journalist: In the newspaper.
Shri Mataji: Any news, even in the newspaper. And see if they get the cool breeze. They might.
Journalist: They might get the cool breeze?
Shri Mataji: If they don’t get it, they should put the left hand towards it, and right hand on the Mother earth.
Journalist: If they don’t get cool breeze, well, suppose we put this photograph in the newspaper, how do..?
Shri Mataji: You have to put your hands towards the photograph.
Journalist: So you put it like this?
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, this way, towards.
Journalist: And both of them?
Shri Mataji: One. I mean, you should put both first of all. If you get the cool breeze, then it’s all right. Then you have to come and ask him, what is to be done further.
Journalist: So I might advise my readers to…
Shri Mataji: …put their hands…
Journalist: …to open their hands? And put it towards your photograph, and see if they get a cool breeze.
Shri Mataji: All right. And if they don’t get it, then what they have to do is to put a light before it.
Journalist: A candle or…?
Shri Mataji: A candle.
Journalist: Before your photograph?
Shri Mataji: The photograph, yes, shining.
G: Can you publish the address of the centre as well?
Journalist: Yes, sure.
G: It would be the best thing, if they can come to the centre.
Shri Mataji: Yes, the address of the centre is the best. And see if they get the cool breeze. Alright? If they get it or they don’t get it, they should come to the centre. So they will give in any case realisation. That’s all. They have to come to the centre, they can get realisation. But they should not be satisfied with the cool breeze; they must know what it is. That’s very important.
Journalist: This is the very first sign of…
Shri Mataji: …first sign…
Journalist: …first sign of Kundalini
Shri Mataji: ….sign that you have felt the cool breeze. It is the sign. It is the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost. It’s described in the Bible.
Journalist: This is the first sign of the Kundalini working?
Shri Mataji: Awakening, piercing. You can also feel it on top of your head.
E: D. P. just phoned and he wants to make an appointment with the Minister of Health of England.
Shri Mataji: Is he there?
E: No, he’ll phone back at twelve o’clock..
Shri Mataji: You see, I can meet him on Monday. Monday, I’ll be in London in my house, Brompton Square.
E: Okay. I’ll tell him.
Shri Mataji: All right? Thank you. Any time, morning or evening, whatever suits the Minister. All right? Please. Thank you.
Journalist: Yes well, okay Mother, I think I have some information to make a little article about it.
Shri Mataji: Yes, you should help because there are so many seekers, everywhere – must guide them. It’s God’s job, you see. It’s God’s job. It gives you blessings and blessings and blessings. And then they should come to the centre, that’s very important. Because, you see, my attention is on the centre and through the centre the attention works. So you also should come and master it. You can master it in no time.
Journalist: Well, that would be nice. Thank you very much.
Shri Mataji: May God bless you. May God bless you.
Journalist: Thank you.
Shri Mataji: I think, get some sugar if there is some. I’ll vibrate it for him. He has a little liver problem. You have a little liver problem.
Journalist: A little liver problem?
R: You could use this picture. You have it.
Shri Mataji: Which picture is that? Take the full picture
R: From Australia. He has got it.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no. This is not sufficient.
R: This one?
Shri Mataji: This one. All right, on the walls also there, they can see it on the walls. It’s all spread. But I think my, that another one is the best, like this, is the best. Have you got it?
Yogi: They have the first black and white one, they have…
Shri Mataji: Ah, have you got?
Yogi: You have here, don’t you.
R: We have a whole pile.
Shri Mataji: You have? All right you give it to him, that’s the best. But give it to him soon otherwise he’ll be publishing…
Yogi: You have it here with you?
R: Er, no not here.
Shri Mataji: (To the yogis who have just come in) You all have been sleeping, I think. Aaahh! They all rest a lot, you see! I don’t get any chance to rest! This is the one.
Journalist: I should publish this photograph rather than the other one?
Shri Mataji: Yes, this is better. You keep it, yours. He will give his own. Why, why do you want to …?
Yogi: I am quite attached.
Shri Mataji: Yes, I know, you looked that way.
Yogi: It’s better black and white for the newspaper.
Shri Mataji: (Laughing) How do I know, eh? It’s love. Love tells you.
This is a photograph for you and this is a book for you, in French. Do you read French?
Shri Mataji: Then it’s all right, no problem. Now, I have to have a bath and then….
E: Er, Shri Mataji there’s H. from Austria…
(Tape switched off.)
H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi