1985-1026 Seekers Radio Interview, New York City, USA
Interviewer: Your Holiness, as a young girl, you had a vision of a new Heaven and a new Earth. According to your view with man’s cooperation, can they exist simultaneously?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course, of course. It’s a beautiful question. It’s only they who make the heaven or the hell. So if they decide to have the hell, they’ll have it.
Interviewer: Your Holiness, I understand that your father was a member of the Indian congress and that as a young girl you lived at Mahatma Gandhi’s ashram.
Shri Mataji: Mm, and not only that, but I took a very active part in the struggle of independence and my hero was your president, Abraham Lincoln. I always appreciated the way he fought for the right and I took a very, very special part in my young age when I was about eighteen or nineteen years of age, in 1942, and a [UNCLEAR malicious], they tried to trouble me quite a lot. They put me on the electric shock, they put me on the ice and put me in all kinds of troubles. All right, one has to forgive them.
Interviewer: Did either of these relationships with your father and with Mahatma Gandhi affect the development of your ideas or your world view?
Shri Mataji: No, I was witness to their ways of life. I felt about Mahatma Gandhi that he was the type of man we needed to get out of the slavery of India. That was like a boat which we need sometimes in a serious matter like a flood. But after you have reached the shores you don’t use the same boat. So those who are still carrying on with the same ideas, you have nothing to fight now for our freedom. We have freedom.
Interviewer: Your Holiness, because of the nature of Man’s mind, man has become enmeshed in the technology of glass and steel and the technology of imagery. Man’s early conditioning by parents and school and church and state and the conditioning that he encounters from industry and the media have over-programmed him. As you have said, whether he knows it or not, Man’s true and innermost desire is to become a hollow flute from which the joy of the universe may be found in. But first it’s necessary for him to clear out the debris of materialism and commercialism. How can this be accomplished?
Shri Mataji: No, I do not say that he should do that. In the beginning I don’t say now because it’s rather difficult. If you’re in the mud, it’s difficult to get out of it. But best thing is to get out of it and then clean yourself. That is the better way of doing it. Sahaja Yoga is the other way around, that first you get your realization, see for yourself, stop your car, see how it is by getting out of it. But conditioning, I must say, is not the only problem you have. If you do not have conditionings you have another side which is the ego which is even worse. If you do not have any conditionings then there is ego. The central path is that you must have good conditionings.
Interviewer: Your Holiness, if Man’s first commitment is to Madison Ave or to General Motors or to his profession, will such a commitment form a block to the evolution of a higher conscious2
Shri Mataji: In the subconscious, or we can say in the unconscious, his commitment is only to place a higher evolution. That is the most powerful thing is hidden below. If somebody can manifest that then he becomes employed by God and he forgets all other things. His employment to God becomes the topmost. By that employment, as Krishna has said, “Yogakshemam vahamyaham.” Once you get the yoga you get the wellbeing. You don’t have to worry so much about material things or about your employment and everything. It works out so spontaneously. You become a dynamic personality.
Interviewer: So would you be saying that while rational thought may be a useful and practical tool, that it is not really an effective tool for finding the highest truth?
Shri Mataji: No, first you must come to a logical conclusion. Rationality is rather dangerous, but a logical conclusion you should come to, that what you must be, what should become of you and what is the achievement so far we have had by doing all these things on these [UNCLEAR slips]. Then once you have come to the logical conclusion that this is not the end of everything, there has to be something better and if it has to be, it has to be in your awareness in a living way, we can understand that there has to be something that is available through the spontaneous happening of a living process of your evolution. If so, if you reach that stage of understanding, then Sahaja Yoga is totally [UNCLEAR].
Interviewer: Your Holiness, in Psychology Today, some have emphasized reason, cognition and some have emphasized emotion and imagery. Others say that by balancing the cerebral hemisphere and by using imagery, music, movement, that these means will aid man in discovering himself. But other therapists say a transformation comes through relaxation, through breathing, through meditation. There are so many options. How are we to choose? Where does peace and joy for man really lie?
Shri Mataji: You’ve got all relative terminology that suggests the future because we live in a relative world. We have to jump onto something attributive, absolutely the Spirit. Once you have the Spirit you’ll find all these things are lifeless. There is no heart in the meaning. It is all superficial. But once you have the Spirit awakened, everything will have a meaning, we’ll have a scientific understanding that how to approach a particular thing, what music is good for your Spirit, what kind of movements are good for your Spirit, what kind of relaxation is achieved. All these things fall in place as if you have to put on the light and now you can see the chaos and you can put it right.
Interviewer: Your Holiness, as many wise and holy men have taught and as modern physics maintained, the world we perceive with our senses is an illusion. How do we discriminate between illusion and reality?
Shri Mataji: Again the same thing because unless and until there is light, we live with illusion. So we must have the light. The light is the Spirit and the Spirit comes to you, you first times feel the all-pervading power. Of course it is there because you see a flower becoming a fruit, you see so many living things happening. But I cannot say how/why. Why there is gravity, how there is gravity, how a flower becomes a fruit. You cannot explain. All these things cannot be done by human beings because it is done by some other power and that power is the all-pervading power of God’s Love. But you have not felt it in your central nervous system, in your consciousness. After realization you start feeling it. For the first time you know the reality that works out all the living things. All the living work is the real work. The rest is all dead.
Interviewer: Your Holiness, through the ages it’s been man’s goal to become objective and thereby become detached and peaceful. Can man, as the Buddhist design, become a spontaneous and innocent being, in a sense be reborn and still remain in the world, unless you retire to the seclusion of a monastery to discover his true self?
Shri Mataji: No, not all. It’s not necessary. It’s absolutely wrong to run away. There’s no need to escape. Buddha did it at that time because it was necessary for people to get out of their mundane thing, but today it is not necessary at all. People must know one thing that when you are in the confusion you cannot solve the problem. You have to get out of the confusion to see the problem and the solution. So after realization you become a dynamic person. You have to live here. You don’t have to run away anywhere because you are entitled to a fearless life, to a life of complete understanding and penetration. Why should you run away when you are there and you are very powerful?
Interviewer: Your Holiness, you have given spontaneous self realization to thousands at one time. If it is so difficult for a man to discover his true self by his own effort, how is it possible to receive self realization spontaneously en masse?
Shri Mataji: Once you understand it’s a living process you will know all living processes are very simple. To sprout a seed all you have to do is put the seed in the Mother Earth, that’s all. It’s a simple thing. All these living processes have to be simple. Of course there is a complicated thing behind it, a big organization, but it is all done by God and His powers which are multifold, thousand fold than which human beings have. So for Him it is simple because He is so empowered by all these powers. He can do it. For human beings it is difficult but why should they do it? They cannot do any living work. They should limit it to the hands of God.
Interviewer: [UNCLEAR Allyson Sands by which an individual can recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit when they attain self realization.]
Shri Mataji: The whole of Sahaja Yoga is a thing of the science of verifying laws. You have to verify it. For example we say that your hands start speaking. Now ask ten children who are realized souls to close their eyes and ask them what is a particular seeker’s health? They all will raise the same finger and say he’s catching on this finger. It’s a living subjectivity that they have.
Interviewer: Would you be saying that peace and an awareness without thought or some symbols such as the ancient scriptures indicated as cool breeze or a dilation of the eyes or vibration in the body would be felt by the seeker?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course. Everything you get in one happening, that you feel the cool breeze in the hands, you feel the cool breeze coming out of your fontanelle bone area, that you get your real baptism, you also feel other things that you said, the dilation of the pupils from the Kundalini rising. But it is just for the time being when the Kundalini is rising above the Agnya. But later on you get the sparkle in the eyes. A realized soul has a sparkle in the eyes whether they are young or old. So many things happen: your skin improves, sometimes I’ve seen varicose veins – especially if somebody tries to cheat – suddenly you find the colour of the varicose veins changes. Even the hands, people will say their hands which were rough suddenly become very smooth and the fingertips become shiny and some people who have dark hands, their hands start becoming shiny and their face becomes shiny. You can see it.
Interviewer: So then you’d be saying that self realization or enlightenment as attained through Sahaja Yoga affect a functioning of the body’s physiology in a positive way, that it’s related to the nervous system, to the endocrine system, to the brain, to the respiratory and the digestive systems and there will be general improvement of the metabolism?
Shri Mataji: Yes, it is because you touch your growth roots. All these things are nourished on the roots and when you touch the source of the roots immediately the effect is felt everywhere, no doubt about it. Moreover on the physical level you can see the pulsation of the Kundalini. You can see the pulsating at the sacrum bone in some people where there is an obstruction so clearly, like a heart is pulsating. You can feel the pulsations on the top of your head. All these things you can feel clearly.
Interviewer: Then we could say, Your Holiness, that Sahaja Yoga as a discipline would affect a real change in the life of the individual.
Shri Mataji: Of course, that’s the only way you can become transformed. I cannot think of any other way. Sahaja Yoga means born with you, spontaneous, the power to make one [UNCLEAR]. But today we should call it a Maha Yoga, meaning it is an en masse happening. It used to be Sahaja Yoga from the very beginning when Buddha got realization. It was [UNCLEAR], no doubt. That time it was an individualistic thing, but today it is a blossom time and thousands have to get it so it’s the Maha Yoga.
Interviewer: Your Holiness, I understand you introduced Sahaja Yoga in 1970 in India and England and that there are many centres throughout the world and in the capitals of Europe. Does Sahaja Yoga emphasize the physical body like hatha yoga or does it deal more with the aspects of the subtle body and the Spirit?
Shri Mataji: No. Sahaja Yoga was first established in 1970 of the Spirit which in Sanskrit is called as [UNCLEAR ishwar pranita]. It is one of the UNCLEAR ungars of hatha yoga. At first you must have ishwar pranita, means you must establish your God. Once you have established your God then you have to also look after where are the problems. Supposing you have problems of physical side. Then you can solve those problems. If you have emotional problems you can solve them. If you have ego problems you can solve them. Thus you have all these so-called yogas which can be used. But first is the establishment of your realization and connection of your being [UNCLEAR in that right]. These two things are in the realm of Sahaja Yoga which people start doing in the beginning.
Interviewer: Shri Mataji, will Sahaja Yoga also effect a change in the collectivity, in the social fabric itself?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course because you become one with the collective being. We talk of all races being one, all nations being one, you are brothers and sisters. But still we war against each other, we hate each other and all these problems are there. But we have something within us that’s called as the Spirit which is the collective being which has given us these ideas of collectivity, of having one unity or one government or one organization dealing with all the governments. So it becomes a reality because you become in your awareness [UNCLEAR]. To become is different from just giving you lectures and getting your brain washed that you are brothers and sisters. But actually you become. Nobody is the other. You become the part and parcel of the whole. You become. Sahaja Yoga is the becoming. That’s why it is difficult for some people because they would like to pay for it or sort of become members of it or do some sort of an artificial thing than to become.
Interviewer: Your Holiness, does your name have a meaning? Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi. Could you translate for us?
Shri Mataji: Shri Mataji is the title given to me by many faces. Shri means the Holy Ghost, Mataji means Divine Mother, but Nirmala, the name means immaculate. Nira, the first part of the word, means the one born out of the water. Nila means the one which is born out of the akasha, the sky or the ether. Nima means where everything’s finished. So it has also breaking points. But on the whole it means immaculate or the pure – Nirmala Devi. Also it means nishkalanka, means the one who has no spots on it and this is the name of the last incarnation which is described in Indian scriptures. But apart from that, my surname, that is after my marriage, is Shrivastava. Shri means Holy Ghost and Vastava means in reality. Apart from that, my surname was before marriage, Salve. You know that Salve in Spanish language was once used by [UNCLEAR Gatia] when he saw Mary Immaculata Salve. So that was my name. All these things were there.
Interviewer: Your Holiness, I understand that you teach that future incarnations of a collective nature will be unnecessary and that the time for individual incarnations such as Buddha and Christ is past. That sounds as if man himself is the new God we have been waiting for. Would you comment on this rather sparkling idea?
Shri Mataji: It’s not startling at all because if you become part and parcel of the whole you become the Gods. Definitely you are the awakened people in the body of God so you are part of God so you are God. A drop in the ocean is the ocean. In the same way you, too, become that. It’s nothing startling. This is what it is. But before that happens, perhaps, maybe an incarnation may start sorting out the people who will be part and parcel and who will be just a waste.
Interviewer: Your Holiness, why, right at this vital point in the evolution of consciousness, are we overrun with so many false gurus who take our money? I understand you take no money in your teaching.
Shri Mataji: How can you pay for it? How can you pay? With intelligence you must think, isn’t it? It is God’s Love. You cannot pay for His Love. What did we pay for what He made us human beings. Did we pay anything for that? How can we pay for it? It’s ridiculous. The ego of man thinks he can buy God. Apart from that, the other question you asked about – what was it?
Interviewer: …at this vital point in evolution why are these false gurus appearing on the scene?
Shri Mataji: It is the announcement that many seekers seeking God at this time which they know, they are aware of it. They being the heaven and standing forces, they know that devils will be born. So this will be a good chance for them to come into the market to exploit them, to take their money and ruin them completely so that they do not get their realization. Those people who go to these gurus are very difficult for me because they argue too much and even if they stop asking me arguing me they don’t understand that within them there are such problems that it is difficult to raise the Kundalini and I’ve seen some of them have such Kundalinis, it is absolutely wounded and it’s just talking, the head just helpless to come up and She does not know how to right because She just falls limply back again. So it is a very difficult time to give realization to people who have bowed their foreheads before these horrible, satanic people because they have impressed their ego or maybe their superego, whatever it is.
Interviewer: Many discover that instead of finding peace when they follow the teachings of these gurus that meditation becomes a boiling pot and the cause of illness and disease. What is wrong when this happens? What is wrong with the nervous system?
Shri Mataji: What they do is to play on your sympathetic nervous systems. What they do is tell you to do something about it. Like they may ask you to dance or they may ask you to stand on your head or they may ask you to do heavy breathing, indiscriminate – all kinds of things. They may even work on your mind by possessing you through hypnosis. Some people turn the Agnya Chakra. [UNCLEAR]. They hypnotize people. By that hypnosis some people get even leukaemia with this kind of behaviour, that you can put a spirit into a person, hypnotize them and they can get into terrible problems – they can become even mad people and cancer and all these diseases can come to you if their guru has died of cancer. That much you can be sure. If the guru has died of cancer how can he cure you? How can he help? All this will happen and these people are evil geniuses. They not only do brainwashing but they hypnotize you and hypnosis can make you ride two horses at the same time and when that happens you get exhausted and when you are exhausted then they hit you harder. Also they give you a certain diet which is not good for you, is not healthy and you suddenly become weak and they hit you more because they want to extract all the money from you. They have other weaknesses like lust so they also work on that. The worst is that they teach you something that is against God. That is they teach you sex habits. They teach you to take drugs and things like that which are against your awareness. And thirdly they may teach you a system by which you become an abnormal, monastic fellow by which you give up your normal life, married life and all that. You lead a life of asceticism which is dangerous for human beings. It is only for people who are ascetics, who are realized souls who can get it but not for people who are not realized souls.
Interviewer: Your Holiness, is it possible that the Divine mind is conceived of masse realization as a means of empowering man with a weapon against the collective forces of evil? Will realization strengthen man in his battle against evil?
Shri Mataji: No, it was decided beforehand. It was unknown it was to happen. It’s nothing new I gather that’s coming from Divine. It was all their plan it was to be done. But one mistake was committed in the beginning when Adam and Eve committed the mistake. They were innocent and they were left as they were with their freedom intact. Once they were given freedom they ran amok. So we had to plan out something else. That should be the Divine planned out a system in which they sent incarnations to guard you and to bring you out of the ignorance and all that and to give you a life of balance and then the innocence so that you enter into the kingdom of God. So this was all planned out. But the time is today and the way man has managed the whole thing with the evil forces affecting [him], that human destruction is evident if they do not take to realization. So it goes hand in hand I think.
Interviewer: Your Holiness, you teach that innocence is the basis of wisdom. Can you explain what this means?
Shri Mataji: It means the innocence has the power to be wise. It cannot be explained more. It’s like if you put on the light it gives light. It’s like that. Innocence, it’s built in.
Interviewer: It’s not rational thought.
Shri Mataji: No, not at all because rationality can be anything. Rationality is not wisdom at all. Innocence is, because through innocence you have that penetration and understanding and that expansion by which you see everything. Innocence is the essence of wisdom.
Interviewer: If Sahaja Yoga is in making the mind a mirror to reflect a solution to its own problem, then would it be possible to say that a self realized soul, or as you call them Sahaja Yogis, would be their own guru?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course. That is something we all have got within ourselves, the principle of guru. Once you become awakened you become your own guru. Because you start seeing yourself what’s wrong with you, you start seeing others what’s wrong with them. Actually you become your own guru and also guru of others. But you do not say you are a guru because you do not want to challenge their ego. But in a way you have an effect on others because you are saner people. This understanding comes to you after you have achieved a certain height in Sahaja Yoga also. There is a difference between a realized soul and a Sahaja Yogi. A realized soul is just a realized soul in the sense that he can, at the most, feel the vibrations from my photograph or maybe that he can see things as witness and all that. But he doesn’t know the art of Kundalini, he doesn’t know how to give realization, he doesn’t know the decoding of it. A Sahaja Yogi is a person who is equipped with all this knowledge. Apart from that he is a realized soul.
Interviewer: Then, Your Holiness, after self realization, when the mind is enlightened and attention is sustained, can a power build up within to a point where enlightenment can be passed on to another?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course, as soon as you get your enlightenment, the power, the Divine power starts flowing through your hands and after a little bit understanding of the whole system, that is the human system, you can give realization to others, no doubt about it. That’s the manifestation of the power of your own Spirit because it has come into your awareness, into your being. That means you are the master of it.
Interviewer: Would you say that this means of enlightenment is a path of the Divine plan and that it is urgent, that there is an historical imperative that man cooperate now in order that he may prepare himself for his own will to take part in the next evolutionary leap of consciousness?
Shri Mataji: It is now or never. That’s the point. It is imminent. Apart from that it is started, it is built up to this point now. It’s absolutely historical, followed traditionally one after another, all these things have come, the tradition is built within us as the chakras, and now it’s all ready to happen and these people do not accept it. Now, there is no way out.
Interviewer: One last question, Your Holiness. If this change that is about to occur in man’s consciousness, if of an evolutionary nature and was genetically programmed, is there any way in which man can accelerate it?
Shri Mataji: Yes, it can be accelerated if there are a sufficient number of Sahaja Yogis it would be easier, like having more channels, channelize this power. Of course after reaching a certain point, a progression starts in a geometrical way.
Interviewer: Thank you very much, Your Holiness.
Shri Mataji: May God bless.