ORF Radio Interview

Meli Ashram, Vienna (Austria)


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Interview: Shri Mataji Talks about Her Early Life. Vienna (Austria), 9 July 1986.

Reporter: Can we start with Your childhood?

 

Shri Mataji: Yes.

 

Reporter: Do You, can describe a little bit the circumstances where you were grown up?

 

Shri Mataji: My family?

 

Reporter: Yes.

 

Shri Mataji:  I belong to a family of very enlightened people. My father was a linguist and he was master of fourteen languages. He knew about twenty-six languages and he translated even Koran-e-Sharif into Hindi language. My Mother was in those days, was a Honors in Mathematics. So both were very well educated and enlightened people.

 

At the time of My birth, My mother dreamt something which she could not explain, but after that she had a great desire to go and see a tiger in the open field. My father was a great hunter, because tigers were a menace in the area where we were living. It was a hill station called Chhindwara. So there was a king who was very much interested in My father. Somehow or the other a letter came that there’s a tiger, a very big tiger that has appeared and they are frightened of him that he might be a man-eater. So My father took My Mother and Me to that place. And they were sitting what we call as a machhan, where they built something, for people to sit on top of a tree, from where they can shoot nicely. And then My mother tells Me that a big huge tiger of a very big size, very beautifully appeared on the field. And she felt tremendous love for the tiger. It was a full moon day and she felt extremely compassionate towards the tiger. And when My father raised his gun to shoot, she stopped him and she wouldn’t allow him. And the tiger went away and he never came to that forest again. But that made My father think – because he himself was a realized soul – that must be somebody, what we call a Goddess Durga who is fond of  a tiger must be born to My mother, because the symptoms were rather funny that a lady should like to see a tiger and all. So he told My mother, “Now are you satisfied?” because they were struggling with the gun. He said, “Is there a Durga sitting in your womb that you are trying to protect the tiger?” She said, “Yes, yes, so stop it now. I won’t allow you.”

 

Like that there were many incidents in My life because I am of a Christian family – protestants – and when I was born My mother didn’t feel any labour pains or anything and just I was born; she didn’t know how. And I had no blood on My body, nothing, I was clean washed. That’s why they called My name as Nirmala. But My grandmother said that She should be called as Nishkalanka, that means the one which has no spots on it. But that’s the name of man. So they said, “All right, we’ll call Her Nirmala, meaning the same, Immaculata.” Now all these incidents, and then My Father being a realized soul, he felt tremendous vibrations from Me, and he felt that this life is great and She will do something great in this life. I do not know why, but I don’t know if he dreamt or he understood it, but all the time if I remember when he talked to Me, he used to say that, “You have to find out a way of giving en masse Realization, all the time”.

 

As I told you, he was a great scholar of so many things, and a very widely read man. So he gave Me a good education in religion, in different religions, and also good education about human beings, what are their problems, why they react like this, why don’t they take to God, why are they hypocritical. All kinds of things he talked to Me. He also knew about Kundalini, but not so much. Of course, when I was born I knew about Kundalini myself. I knew all about it from My very childhood. I was a very aware person, extremely aware. But I didn’t know whom to talk to because, see, people didn’t have that awareness. You can’t talk to everyone like that. So I was regarded as a very jolly person, at the same time very serious also, very deep, and then I started my studies as a child. I was not very much interested in the studies but I used to do very well, but I used to read lives of great men and things like that.

At a very young age I read Bernard Shaw. When people were reading just Great Expectations, I was reading Bernard Shaw. But as such I didn’t have interest in particularly reading some text books because I thought they were childish, and there is nothing to be read about it.

 

Then I told My father that “I have to do medicine.” So he said, “Why?” I said, “Because I have to talk to doctors.” He said, “You have to talk to doctors?” “Yes”, I said. But it so happened in My childhood when I was about seven years of age, My father was a congressman, he had joined Congress when I was four years of age. He used to live with a style, very westernized. His clothes were stitched in London, sort of a man. We had governesses and all that. He threw away everything and he became a real Indian and started leading a life of a martyr. Then he made us study our languages, Sanskrit… He made Me study in an Indian school, not in a missionary school, because missionaries were very unkind. They threw us out of the school when My father was in the Congress. They were against us completely.

 

Then at the age of seven years I happened to go with My Father to Mahatma Gandhi. He was about seventy miles, living with us, but the first time he took Me down. And Mahatma Gandhi liked Me very much. He said, “Leave this child with me.” So, I had not even taken clothes or anything. I stayed on; then My Father sent Me everything with him. And he was very fond of Me, but I was a little girl, but he understood that there was something about Me. He consulted Me on very serious problems sometimes, surprisingly. Like one day he wanted to make the Prayer Book all right. So, he asked Me, “How should I put the series?” and all that. So I told him how to put the series and he put the series in that way. I used to go back for My school and again go back to Gandhiji, every year, like that. And he called Me Nepali. He’d given Me a name Nepali. Everybody used to call Me Nepali that time. Then I grew up with him very intimately.

 

He was a very, very kind person for children, otherwise an extremely strict man, with himself and with others, very strict, a big disciplinarian. And he would make everybody get up at four o’clock, have your baths, everything, be ready for your morning prayers at five o’clock, you see, and he used to walk very fast. I also learnt walking fast with him. In his company I had to walk fast. And he was extremely loving and a very nice person, and he would listen to Me because I was a child, you see. Supposing I forced him to eat more or something, then he would, in laugh he would accept. Very kindly person. But with others was very strict, and I used to tell him that, “Why are you strict with everyone?” He said, “But You are a little girl, You get up in the morning time. Why can’t they get up?” I said, “I am little. That’s why I get up. They are big so they can’t get up”; like that, you see, little chats.

 

And then My father went to jail and My mother also went to jail five times. My father went to jail twice, once for about two and a half years, and he was the only supporting member of the family. By the way, we come from a very old royal family, which is called as Shalivahanas. They have a Calendar also in India. And then when we, I mean when they took My father to jail, we had to leave our house and we had to live in huts and in all problems, that was nothing. But also Me they pestered a lot, because I helped many people there and I joined the ’42 movement in a very serious way and I became the leader here for the young people. I thought unless and until I take a very positive stand, it may not work out with them. It’s not gracious to say how they tortured Me, what they did to Me, but they really tortured Me. I was a young girl of nineteen years that time. It is over now. So, it’s finished, and after that we, My father went to jail again and then when he came back he got elected as the member of the Central Assembly later on, as the Constituent Assembly and then at the Parliament.

 

My brother was also a member of the Parliament, later on. Now, recently, he was the Minister in the Cabinet. Another brother is a High Court judge in Bombay. They are all doing well, despite the fact that our parents neglected us in a way because they gave their lives for the country but, you see, that never deterred us from studies and we came up very well. Then I, when I was in the ’42 movement, you see, My college rusticated Me – from the college they threw Me out and I had to go to another college to study far away from My house, in Punjab, where I studied for two years. Science I did, then I did my medical. I didn’t do fully because, just after that the ’47 riots broke out, so our college was closed and I didn’t want to know more because what I wanted to know I came to know about it. So I did not need and I got married.

You must have heard My husband was, is now the Secretary-General of the International Maritime Organization. He held very high positions. He was also Secretary to Lal Bahadur Shastri, who was our Prime Minister, who was a another very great man, but he did not survive long. If he had survived things would have been different, I think, for our country because he was a Gandhian, out and out Gandhian, and he lived like an ideal Gandhian personality.

 

So that’s how the life went on. But inner being was still seeking the ways and methods of giving en masse Realization. My father said, “Before You do not develop this technique of giving en masse Realization, don’t talk of religion. Let nobody know that You know anything about it because they’ll crucify You,” or he was rather worried that people won’t understand or, ‘You may write another Bible or Geeta. No use. First of all you must give them Realization. If they get their Realization then they will realize that there is something about, above this human awareness”. For example, he always used to give an analogy – supposing you are born on the tenth storey and everybody is on the ground, you must at least make them climb two storeys, so they know there is something above it; otherwise no use talking about it. And he said this is the mistake between the saints and the incarnations was that they never realized that these people are still on the ground, they have to still enter into the building. So that is what you have to be very careful that first of all you must give Realization to people. So I was seeking the ways and methods, working it out inside Myself through My own style of meditation in the sense that I would work out all the permutations and combinations.

 

Supposing I met one person, then I would see what problems that person had, how you can overcome it like that. I would try to study that person internally. And I went to many people to find out, but I found they were great hypocrites. I saw so many of these gurus. Most of them I saw them, I was surprised, they were all hypocrites, money-making and this thing. And also I went to Rajneesh also, to see him. Then he said that I should come to his program. I did not know what sort of man because he was talking about Geeta and big, big things. I thought he might be knowing something about it. I went there, but my husband said, “No, I won’t allow You to go to his camp” So he arranged his own bungalow and all that for Me.

 

So I went down there and there I couldn’t see all the things that were going on and that is the day somehow or other I said I must open the last chakra. So the last chakra was opened. And I saw the Kundalini which is the Primordial force within us, which is the Holy Ghost within us, rising like a telescope, opening out, and then I saw the whole thing open and a big torrential rain of breeze started flowing through My head all over, as if, and I felt “I am lost now. I am no more there. It’s only the Grace is there, that is there.” I saw it completely happening to Me. And, but I was amazed that when I went to Rajneesh, you see, because before going I had to say goodbye. He never realized what had happened or anything. So I was surprised. I said, “This man doesn’t know anything about God”, and then I discovered that they were all hypocrites and telling lies.

 

So in 1973 this happened, on 5th of May ’70, 1970, 5-th of May. And just after that we had a very big lecture in Jahangir Hall – there’s a very big hall – and thousands of people had come. I told them very frankly that these are all thugs and these are like this, hypocrites. Some of them are demoniacs. Some are evil people. I took their names, everything. I told them, “Don’t go near them.” There were some foreigners also. And there were so many others whom I told these things very clearly, and they got frightened. They said, “You shouldn’t say like this. They’ll come and murder you. They’ll do…” ”I said, “Let them come and murder Me.” But nobody did anything. Nobody even went to the courts. And that’s how, you see, they tried to bring bad name to Me. They paid money to the newspapers to publish things against Me, because I said, “You cannot pay money.” So they thought that I was just trying to, you see, harm them by saying such a thing that you can’t earn money in the name of God. If it’s a job you can do it, but God’s work is not a job. And the struggle started from the day I started giving Realization, and I started with one lady who got Realization first. Then we got about twelve people who got Realization. In two years I got only about fourteen people Realization. Then gradually when fourteen people got Realization then many others started getting Realization. But I started also curing people because that was helping a lot.

 

Then My husband got elected to this post and we had to come to London. So when I came to London we had one program in Bhartiya Vidya Bhavan. They arranged it. So the Indians abroad are not so much interested in God; they are more interested in money. So none of the Indians stayed there. They all ran away. And only the foreigners who were there, were about seven hippies. So I had to work on them, seven hippies. For four years I was working on them, to give them Realization. Very difficult, you see. Their liver was bad. They had ill health. Their head was off, terrible times. But in between I used to go to India, and in India also the work was done. For three months always I would be in India. So we started working in the villages, specially surprisingly where My forefathers were ruling, in that area, the work started moving in a very big way. And there then we started taking some people from India. Then some people came from Australia to India, like that, and the work started moving in those directions. Then gradually the work improved and people found that this is the way we can transform ourselves.

 

Many people who were taking drugs or alcoholic or mad people, or cancer people , they felt better, then they got cured and it was established that Sahaja Yoga is something very important. Now when I travel all over the world, you see, first My husband used to pay for everything. Wherever I went, he had to pay all. Any expenses he used to do for Me. Gradually, then now, these people pay for My travel, but otherwise they don’t have to pay for anything else That’s how we started our work. There was lot of opposition and the media people would never understand it, because it was no such a sensation as you can say, nothing to people feel excited. But in a way it’s a very great thing, because if this is the solution for the whole world, one should try to do it.

 

Then we had very great people who came to Sahaja Yoga, like, we can say, the Hague High Court judge, who is now the President, who has given Nicaragua, this thing judgment. He and many lawyers and many barristers. We have one barrister here from Algeria, and doctors, and then they took over and they started helping Me out how to propagate Sahaja Yoga. But it was a difficult task in the West. Of course, in India it spread very fast in the villages but city people in India also are westernized and they start analyzing. They don’t know much about our past. They don’t know anything about our heritage, that we have our Kundalini and all that. But some people do know about self-Realization.

 

But these gurus could not stick on in India because nobody would accept them. So they all run away abroad. And that was something a blessing for Me also because I didn’t have to fight them there, and it started working out, and then people found that it helps in every way, and they found so many miracles about it, and that’s how Sahaja Yoga got settled quite a lot. But still I would say that we have not been to certain countries so far, and in the west, I would say that so much work has still to be done. Because as soon as you start any work in any place, first of all they want Me to cure people and to help them with curatives. Now if I pay attention more to that, then the main work is to create doctors out of everyone. That is neglected. Then you become unpopular. They think, “Oh, She is not sympathetic” and this and that. But now as we have, everybody can cure now, everyone. I don’t cure anyone directly. But they don’t like it. They want I should be there and their ego to be pampered and all those things are there. Rather difficult. It’s not, we are not running an election, you see, like we should please others sort of thing, is not there.

 

But whatever is reality, if a person has intelligence – pure intelligence – he can see that this is something very different and for that one has to understand that you cannot, you cannot force on anyone that “You get your Realization”. In the same way you cannot force Me that I give you Realization, because if it does not work, it does not work. It’s such a living force, you see. And that upsets them very soon. I feel that the way this industrial revolution has come in the west, people have lost their moorings, perhaps. They are so confused. With all these gurus coming down here confusing them and all kinds of new things coming, they don’t know where to look. But unless and until you get your evolution completed, unless and until you reach that absolute state of understanding, the chaos will remain. So one has to try to get to that.

 

But one must understand you can’t pay for it. There is no effort. After getting Realization they feel so satisfied, they forget about it. But after that you must know how to give it to others. As Christ has said that the light which is enlightened, you do not put it under the table. That’s how what happens that, it’s a, though we may give Realization at hundred people, only out of that five to six will come forward to help us out. But still I must say lot of work has been done. Especially Austria, I am very proud of Austria. And the way they have never given Me any problem – never – and very good people have come out of Austria. Very balanced, you see, level-headed people, very level-headed. They are not extremists. They do not go to extremes. There is no fanaticism about them. They are sensible people, and something so lucky that Austria was found out because I never expected that in Austria there will be so many people. But somehow like water finds its own level, Sahaja Yoga finds its own level. We just came down to Austria. We haven’t been to Norway, to Sweden, Denmark, Finland. I visited those places because of My husband’s job but I have not been there.

 

Now we have sixteen centers in Australia, and Australia is a very progressive Sahaja Yoga thing. We have got schools now there. They are running schools and the teachers are extremely well-behaved and visionaries, and they look after the children very well. The Government people sent somebody for observation and they have remarked that whatever they proclaim, that’s what they manifest, and they have given good certificates to us. But the greatest achievement on the outward life is this, that Cambridge University has accepted Sahaja Yoga for a research work, with respect, by one Dr. Lee, who is doing the research about Sahaja Yoga in Cambridge University. He is already a Doctor. And there is another great thing has happened in Delhi University, that the Delhi University has accepted that a person can do, only a doctor can do, a PhD, or we can say the Doctorate in Sahaja Yoga, and he gets the highest degree called the Doctor of Medicine, and perhaps maybe after sometime they will allow anyone to do that. This is about the medicine part of it.

 

In agriculture we have done lots of research, Myself. We have somebody here, an expert on agriculture. He has also done lot of research, and we found out, that with vibrations we start after Realization, if you vibrate the water and if you water the plants with that, then sometimes you might get even ten times more breed. That’s what they did in India, in one of the Agricultural University. But here also he’s found out that there’s tremendous difference between the growth of an ordinary thing. Another thing we have found out in agriculture, that if you give vibrations then even an ordinary cow can give lot of milk. But if you have hybrid cows then, you see, it’s not good for the brain, because a person who takes hybrid milk, also gets hybrid. I mean his brain becomes little wobbly. So better to have a pure milk from a cow which is not been put to this kind of a experimentation.

 

Moreover, food also, if it’s hybrid food, it’s not very good for us because that spoils our nerves, I think. But ordinary seeds you cannot use because they have weakened and they cannot reproduce. So when we vibrate them they produce very well just like, better than even sometimes, hybrid thing, and the food, it tastes very well and it doesn’t give those complications. So this can help in agriculture in India, and the government has allotted us lot of land where we are going to now experiment, and we are going to start the experimentation there to show that how we can use this. But many farmers who are Sahaja Yogis have done a lot of job and they have discovered that even animals and this, what you call, farming, everything is helped very much by vibration. So it improves the lives of people.

 

We have on the other side, social side, I can tell you that we have our marriages – international marriages. We arrange international marriages between people. They have to know each other and they are together. And first of all they are together for one or half month with us in the tour. They see each other and their marriages are fixed. And we have seen that such marriages are extremely successful. Ninety-nine percent marriages are successful. Once in a while, maybe a mishap, but mostly there are no divorces that take place. Once in a while if it’s not successful we have no objection to divorce also, but mostly it is successful and they get children who are very intelligent, who are themselves born realized children, mostly. So the problem is much less and the family life improves. The quality of life is thousand times better. People are very joyous, happy, they do not complain, and they enjoy life and they give to others. They share what joy they have. So …

 

Reporter: Can I ask a question? What do you think are the important points in the education of children, what are important to give to the children?

Shri Mataji: You see, first if they get Realization, to get first time to that point of Realization… If they are already born realized no problem, but if they have, they’re given Realization, then, you see, they start seeing from a different level. They become the Spirit. So their self-respect, you see, awaken. Such children behave in a very dignified, elderly manner, you see. They talk in a very elderly manner and this gives solutions of all kinds, you see. And they are tremendous people. But we have to guide them properly by our own behaviour, how we behave. The greatest thing is how we behave. That’s how the children learn. We put the children certain to some tests, how they are. We find out if they have any physical problems, we cure them. If they have mental problem, we cure them. If they have any other problem, social problem or anything, we try to help them out. So that basically if a human being is all right in the childhood, then fundamentals are all right for the child. The foundation is laid down. Then to build a child up into a good quality is not difficult. So now we find great artists are there, there are great musicians and at a very young age they have started playing violin… I mean suddenly they have become dynamic also and very humble. They are very humble and self-respecting and very well-behaved.

 

It’s surprising how the atmosphere is and how it works out. And the other day the lady asked Me about the women and I told her that a woman’s power as a mother is very great. And she felt hurt about it. But I didn’t mean that you should be just a mother. What I am saying, she is a mother, means she is compassionate, she is kind, she is not aggressive like men. That is a very big quality. That is a very big power in a woman. That is what I was suggesting that that is what we have to earn, is not to compete with men. It’s madness to compete with men, and to go about like that, because… You see we have to understand that life has to be enjoyable. Life is to be a blessing, not to be a misery. We create our own miseries by these false ideas, by our own conflictions we have in our mind, mental projections we have in our mind, or our own obstinacy – whatever it is.

 

All these things can be cured if you take to Sahaja Yoga because you become a balanced person, level-headed, wise person. And you become a witness. The whole thing becomes like a show, like a drama. And you become fearless, you start seeing the whole thing like a drama. And this is what a human being has to achieve. We talk of peace. We talk of no war. We talk of many things like this, you see, atomic bomb, this, that… All that is not going to work out. Only what is going to work out is the transformation of human beings. If the human beings are transformed, things will work out absolutely first class. Not only that, but that they will enjoy the bliss of life. We are missing the point altogether! This is a very important thing that human beings must say, one thing: what have we achieved out of all these? Just for a minute to stop and think.

 

Reporter: What would you say is the definition of illness? What’s the causes of illness?

Shri Mataji: It’s the physical, mental, emotional, all illnesses are caused by the imbalances within us, by our extreme behavior. And supposing say now the cancer. We can take the cancer. Cancer is caused by the over-activity of the sympathetic nervous system. Now supposing a person is a very sad person. He cries and weeps and all the time feels guilty and thinks that he is the worst person ever born, he’s committed so many sins and all sorts of nonsense, you see. Then he goes to the left side, according to us and crosses over to the collective subconscious area. And there, according to us, what they call as Protein 58, and Protein 52, doctors call it that way, but we call it as the dead souls; they exist there and they catch hold of you and they trigger the cancer. But supposing by any chance you can bring the attention fully away from that in the center you can get cured. So it is the centers within us which are subtle, which are basically seven centers. There are many others, but basically seven. If you can put them right, you cannot have any sickness or illness, of any kind.

 

Reporter: Let’s go back to your childhood. Can You explain – Your parents supported You very much in Your learning and in Your studies. It’s correct? [unclear]

 

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. Of course. You see in…

 

Reporter: Is this normal that parents support the child like You in Your family?

 

Shri Mataji: In India, all parents support the child. Even if…

 

Reporter: You can learn everything what You want to?

 

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, I mean, that is true. But you see the basic thing is parents are very benevolent to children, very kind to children, and to them, you see, the child’s education, child’s upbringing and child’s life is very important. That’s why we know they are, so we depend on them, they look after us and they are very wise people. They sacrifice everything for us. So, whatever they say we think it’s nice and by doing this we have not lost anything so far. In India if you find Indian children when they come abroad they always talk the least anywhere. They are very obedient children and they behave very well. We don’t have all this problem, teenage problem, homosexual. We don’t know even all this problems are because we are so close with the parents all the time. They all the time watch us. We don’t have drug problem, none of these. Only in the cities, little bit, it happens and it disappears; because parents are all the time with their children. We live together. The whole family lives together. And not only with the parents but all the relations and all the people in the village and the city, everyone knows each other. Such a joint system we have that we do not normally, sort of, go into wrong ways and methods and we do not become obstinate also.

 

Reporter: But, You grew up in a Christian family in India?

Shri Mataji: Yes.

Reporter: It’s not a normal situation, that Indian people are Christian?

Shri Mataji:  Yes, I know. It is, you see, I was born in a Christian family deliberately, because I think, you see, I personally think, that Protestants are the greatest fanatics; because they are very sophisticated, you see, their fanaticism is in their brain. Nobody can make them out of their fanaticism. They are very great fanatics, the greatest of all. But My parents were very enlightened people and they understood Christ very well. Yesterday I told you about Paul, you see, when I was – first time I took the Bible in the hand and I asked My father, “Who is this Paul?”. He said “He is an intruder. Forget him. Don’t read him at all.” So you see they understood all these things very well and because My father was a realized soul, like Khalil Gibran, you see. If you read Khalil Gibran, he says the same thing about Paul, the same thing. So, you see, if you are an enlightened person, you see the essence of everything. Whatever religion you may be born, you don’t ignore any other religion. You try to learn about other religion, and you find the essence is the same in every religion. What is there to fight? And that’s how you belong to no religion, you belong to every religion. That’s what happens. But My parents were very enlightened people, I must say, and I was very lucky to choose them as My parents.

 

Reporter: You have been an enlightened child, is it correct?

 

Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon?

 

Reporter: You had been an enlightened child?

 

Shri Mataji: Yes, I have been born as an enlightened child.

 

Reporter: But You don’t feel sometimes very lonesome, because all the others are different?

 

Shri Mataji: No, no, that is, you see, if you know how to share with others… Actually I was like a Mother to them from My very childhood. When My father, mother went to jail I was, first time, I was about, I think five and a half years of age. So I had all the keys of the house in My little frock thing, and I used to carry all the duties like a grandmother. I never felt lost. I mean, My life is on the whole is very collective, by temperament I am extremely collective. I can live anywhere. I can sleep anywhere. I can live in the jungles. I can… I have no problems of that. I am extremely collective. I am not exclusive by temperament, from very childhood. I was very friendly with all the people in that area where we were living and My mother was known as Nirmala’s mother, father was known as Nirmala’s father. So they said, “We have lost our identity because of Her”. So I was a very friendly person. I never felt lonely, and when I am with Myself I am never lonely at all. I enjoy Myself very much.

 

Reporter: When You had been to the ashram with Gandhi, can You mention one or two impressions You remember about Gandhi?

Shri Mataji: Oh! Gandhiji was a tremendous man. One has to learn a lot from him. He was not at all a hypocrite, that’s one thing. And he was not like modern, we say, politicians, who says something, do something. No, he was very outspoken and always put himself on the testing point. And he used to confess if he made mistakes, immediately. One very great incident I remember, when I was a small child. They were having a meeting together and we girls were there only sitting giving them water and things, to all the people. All the big people were there, like… Jawaharlal Lal Nehru was there and also Maulana Azad, all these people were sitting there. They were discussing something and then suddenly Mahatmaji said that, “Now it’s very late. We’ll have lunch here.” So they said, “Yes, yes, we’ll have lunch here.” They had to go to the guest house which was far away. So Mahatmaji asked for the Baa, is his wife. She had gone out. So he got up. He had a key with him, you see, always of the store room. He opened the store room, and he asked the people who were in charge of cooking to measure everything according to the people there are, properly, everything, you see. And then he, and they measured it out, everything was done then he put the key back, and then he went and sat there nicely. So these people said, “Bapu, we did not know you had to take so much trouble, you see, to go all the way and measure out everything out for us.” It did not take much time, about fifteen minutes, but still. So he said, “What do you think? This is the blood of my country. I cannot allow it to be wasted”. See, that’s the sign of a person who understands the value of public money. That’s just ingrained in him, but those who saw him also felt that, “Look at this man, who is living like an ascetic, absolutely, in the sense that he would not touch the public money”. And that is one of the key, keys for all the leaders. If they are absolutely above the money, then only people will respect; otherwise, there is no way out. But you find these days in every country so much of corruption, hypocrisy, then you are really shocked.

 

Reporter: What do You think is the reason of all these corruption, of the political instability?

 

Shri Mataji: It’s ignorance. It is ignorance. They think by having money or by having big position or by having a big name, they’ll be happy. They will not be happy. Only the ego will be pampered. When it is slightly hurt, the person will be unhappy. So he’ll be going into from happiness to unhappiness. But when he gets the knowledge that it is the Spirit which is the source of joy, then he doesn’t care for money, he doesn’t care for all these things. He is not afraid of anything. He lives like a Lord himself. He is a Lord, he doesn’t want anything. You see, the one who is the Lord doesn’t want anything. For example, now, as you know, I come from a rich family, my husband from a rich family. He’s now well to do. We have very comfortable living, but I can live in a, on a street, I can sleep on a street, because I am like a queen. I don’t need anything. If you need anything then you are a beggar, otherwise you are a king, isn’t it? That’s what I feel. So that is what is the ignorance. Once they know we are just fighting our ignorance they’ll give it up. It’s nonsense. It is nonsense and it’s not at all joy giving. Your virtues are very joy giving. If you know about your chastity, or you know about your honesty, or if you know about your straightforwardness, it’s very joy giving. You feel so confident, so happy and such a person never tries to harm anyone, to be sarcastic with anyone. Such a person is absolutely free, I should say, because he has no bondages of any kind. These are all bondages which bind us and we become jealous and we become greedy, we become lusty. All this is nonsense. It’s to be just seen after getting to your Spirit that the light shows these are all like snakes, you see, crawling up on us and we are holding on to snakes. People when they die, you see – big, big people I have seen – people tell about them. In the history they go down as horrible people. In the history they are described as people who were hypocrites, who were cruel, who were very, I should say, adamant type, and all kinds of things is described. Whatever is genuine remains genuine.

 

Reporter: You never, don’t feel frightened?

Shri Mataji: No, I don’t. I don’t know anything like fear. What’s there to be afraid of? I am never afraid of, because if you believe and you know definitely there is God all over, there is nothing to be afraid of. He looks after you every moment, every minute. Wherever you are, He looks after you. These people have had so many experiences of that. There was one girl who was a Sahaja Yogini and she was driving somewhere in Germany on an Autobahn, and there were so many cars were with her. And suddenly her brake failed and the car started going this way, that way. She didn’t know how to manage it. She said, “Now, what to do?” She just… She had another one also with her. Both of them, they said, “All right, let us close our eyes and think of Mother.” They just started thinking of Me and said, “We’ll not be afraid, just think of Her”. And suddenly they found that their car had come to one side of the road very nicely without any scratch. So, you see, it is just our fear makes us more frantic and stupid. There is nothing to be afraid of. It is to be seen how God helps you. But people don’t want to take His help, you see. Then God says, “All right, go ahead and break your head. What to do?”

 

Reporter: Sometimes other people are helping.

Shri Mataji: Yes, then you should know how to handle them. You see, they, for example, yesterday that fellow came. You see, he just became like a beaten up dog. You saw him coming and saying something to Me, which you never heard. But they belong to a cult, some sort of a cult, you see, and they always oppose us. They have some sort of Christians. And when I was in Geneva, one of the ladies, all, you see, dressed up in a very fashionable way, she came to Me with a Bible in her hand to hit me, you see. And everybody got frightened that now she is going to beat Me. This woman walked with big high heels upon Me and I dont know, they thought she’ll do something to Me. As soon as I saw her with the Bible, you know, I started laughing, absolutely. I couldn’t bear. I thought, “Such a joker she is. She is coming to hit Me with a Bible? How can she do it?” And she got worried about Me that I am laughing so much. It’s all on the tape. And these boys were very much frightened, I’ve seen. I was not at all. I said, “It’s perfectly all right,” and she ran away because she saw Me laughing, you know. I just couldn’t help [unclear] laughing at the joker, the way she came to hit Me with a Bible. Imagine! So this is what it is. If you are afraid then they sit on your heads. But you should not be afraid.

 

There’s a Chinese story that there’s one king who took two, two cocks for fighting to a very realised soul, a guru, and he said, “You make them all right”. So he said “All right”. He trained them for one month, and they went for a fight. So many cocks were brought him to fight these. So these two were standing there, they would no attack anyone, just standing. Everybody was attacking, they were just standing. Everybody got frightened, all the, all the cocks got frightened and ran away. And these two were standing there nicely. You should not attack anyone, nor anybody would attack you. Yes, they are there, but quite alright. But I am not frightened of them. So far nobody has been successful.

 

A person: I request Mataji, if Mataji can explain how to raise the Kundalini, that may help the guests also.

 

Shri Mataji: Explain how to raise the Kundalini.

 

A person: Yes.

 

Shri Mataji: He wants to know how the Kundalini is raised. As they explained the, yesterday in German language, that at the base of our spine, there is a power lying there, which is the reflection of the Holy Ghost within us. And the Spirit lies in the heart which is the reflection of God Almighty. So the power of God is the Holy Ghost, is a female power, because God is a male, then He has a son. There has to be a Mother to the son. They didn’t want to have a woman there, imagine. We cannot have women for… They cannot be ordained. This is too much. It’s not in India like this, you see. You don’t find this kind of a nonsense there but is here that women have accepted, though you are so advanced. There, here it is so stupid that women cannot become priests. Why can’t they if the men can be? So, this, to avoid the women from the whole thing, they called It a Holy Ghost, without telling that it’s a female. And that female power is the Shakti which resides in the triangular bone. Now, what happens, that when a person who is authorised, in a way that a person who is a realised soul, is faced by such a person, then the Kundalini spontaneously rises. Just like in the womb of the Mother Earth if you put any seed, spontaneously it sprouts because it’s a living process. And it passes through the six chakras. The seventh is the last chakra, which is the pelvic, which helps the pelvic plexus. So it doesn’t play any part, means sex does not play any part in this. You become like a child. And the Kundalini passes through six centres ultimately the sixth one is here, which we call as Sahastrara, meaning thousand petaled lotus. But actually it is the limbic area, and at the apex of limbic area here, at the fontanel bone area, It pierces through, and you actually start feeling the cool breeze coming out of your head. Actually start feeling like that. So, it just sprouts by itself, it is a spontaneous happening. Did you understand? You are from the country of Krishna, you should know many things. After coming here, you people have forgotten God. Is it true or not?

 

H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi