Talk to Sahaja Yogis: The need to go deeper

Burwood Ashram, Sydney (Australia)

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Talk to Sahaja Yogis: Questions and Answers, Burwood Ashram, Sydney, Australia, 6 May 1987

I am happy that you all were meditating here, and were trying to develop your depth. You all have depth, a very deep personality within yourself. But we have to touch that, that’s very important, because you see, we sing, have music, that’s a very good thing; we enjoy each other’s company, also is very good and that’s a nice thing. But we have to enjoy our own company also by meditating, going within yourself.

Now, ‘What is the use?’ one may ask. ‘Mother, now we have got realisation, we have a nice life, we are enjoying ourselves, we are doing so well.’ The deeper you go, the deeper you touch the essences of all the things, like all the elements – when you had finished your meditation, you saw how the rain fell down, how the rain came suddenly. So rain has felt your depth, or you have felt the depth of rain. Now you know that if you light one little candle and put your finger towards it with My photograph there, it acts, it reacts and it gives you a flame which burns, sometimes gives you smoke, sometimes it gallops. So you have noticed that there’s a reaction, even in the fire. So all elements have got an effect: if a saint wants to have an effect. But first of all you must reach your own essences. Once you reach your own essences, then you reach the essences of all the elements, and then you can handle all the elements as you like or you can order them as you like. First they will act, expressing that they have been touched − like today, the rain came pouring down. Then later on you can command, and you can ask the rain to come. 

To work out many things of that kind we have to be deep people, we have to go much deeper within ourselves to touch our essences. That is, you know very well that all our chakras are made out of these essences, and when we go deep into ourselves, what we find that we can touch the elements very well. But while doing so, actually we move horizontally. When we start moving horizontally, at the core of it, we find that there are these essences placed, and these essences then start exciting the essences across. Like in the radio you have seen there’s ether. Now when you speak on one side of the radio, it gets completely manifested in the essence of the ether and then everybody can hear it. Now when you people just give a bandhan sometimes, you find that you have communicated with another person. But that’s only the essence of the ether – or we can say, the subtler of the subtlest. People have only gone onto the subtler side, we can say, by science, but you go to the subtlest side, and that subtlest side gives you all these effects.

Now you have seen also that in some of the photographs, suddenly you find light coming out of My head, or there’s somebody shown as with the light, somebody’s with the head the light is coming − you have seen all this. This is done also by the same method, but here the deities, like Vishnumaya works out. She’s very active, She works it out, She does all these things. And you know that also that when they gave Me once a beautiful crown in Switzerland, in the sky they got the photograph of the same. Very beautifully done, the crown was there, Fatima’s crown, My face, My eyes and everything so clearly. All this is done by Vishnumaya. So all the, all the essences are working out for you, as well as all the deities are working out for you. They are very anxious that these things should be done, and you are the channels for them to work it out.

Now for example, as I told you the other day, if you don’t keep yourself all right – a simple thing I have told you, to put in the nose some ghee. It’s a very simple thing but that helps Me a lot, because that helps My Vishuddhi. But if you don’t do it I suck in, in any case, whatever problems you have, I suck in. I suck in the problem of Sahaja Yogis, also the problem of the city where I am, also the problem of the country where I am, maybe of the whole universe. But My horizontal movement is quite large and is very subtle, and I do it quietly.

But you must also understand that you can do a lot by your horizontal movement. By horizontal movement what happens that, you start meditating on a particular subject which is a very bothersome subject, and which is for the destructive of humanity. Anything − you just put your attention to it and meditate. If you are that deep, that means if your calibre has improved to that extent, you will immediately put an effect on that. Immediately you will see there will be a change, there will be something happening in that direction. This is your power which you have to actually develop.

So we have to meditate, and by meditation we develop that strength within us, so automatically we start solving the problem. Like our antennae grow up to that point: the way we are strong inside, they grow outside to help so many things which are to be helped. Now you see that people are realising that the world is in a great mess, and there are lots of problems that have come through materialism, through wrong thinking, through emotional thinking, through stupidity we can say. We have no time for all this. What we have to do is to develop ourselves deeper and deeper and deeper, so that on horizontal plane also we are effective.

Sahaja Yoga first of all is for personal improvement, is for the inner improvement as far as the personal side is concerned − means your intelligence must improve, your temperament must improve, your heart must clear out, your feelings must be all right. Then you should, your health should be all right, then your relationship with others should be all right, your ego should go away, your superego should go away − all these things are there. But this only helps a personality, just a personality that is very limited, that is your Self. But now this personality can become an instrument, if you can develop that depth within yourself. But normally what happens, people are very much still worried about themselves, say about their wives, about their children, about their husbands or their household, or this and that. These are not important things, because we have to be those instruments which are what you call them, like pilotless bombs, we have to develop that depth within us. That depth is possible, and you can really cure many problems of your country if you could just meditate on them.

Now for today, I had actually sucked in most of the problems which I had felt were there in Canberra and later on in that conference, and later on here. All these problems came into My understanding, I would say, and I was trying to work on them. My working style is different because I have very sharp and very effective instruments. But I have to pay attention to it and I a little bit suffer also, doesn’t matter.

Now for you also, it is important that you also develop those deeper feelings within you, deeper sense within you. But mostly people are very superficial type. They just think about their body, their impressions, how they carry themselves. At the most they’ll think: we have to be very legal-minded, or we have to be at the most not drinking, not smoking, and all these things are achieved and we have achieved everything. But I think that is not so.

And second point is that we think that if we love each other, if we love Mother, that is the end of everything. It’s not true also, because you see, your love for Me is there no doubt and it should be intense, it should be deeper; but the deeper you go into that love, then you will be surprised how you receive a special quality of correcting the things that are wrong around you. Gradually that quality improves. For example, a Sahaja Yogi goes to anybody’s house, that house must become auspicious. But such a Sahaja Yogi must have a good heart. If the heart is not good, in the heart there is still anger, passion, lust, greed, then such a heart won’t affect. But a person who has purified himself, if he goes into any family, any household, any society, the whole change will take place. The circumstances will change. Things that do not work out will start working out immediately.

Like they said, ‘Mother, as soon as You sent from this Sunday, everything started working out as far as the television is concerned and radio is concerned.’ I didn’t do anything − in a way. But that should happen with you also. Wherever a saint goes, things are changing. But you have to be a saint, and a saintly person has a very deep understanding of another person, and this is what it is lacking: we don’t have that deep understanding for each other. Then even if you have for some of your own friends, or maybe in the same ashram that you are staying and all that − but it should deepen much more. You should go further and further.

Now even if you think of Me, it works out. It’s the other way round also. But first of all the meditative process should be increased. We all must meditate, that is very important − meditate sincerely. Not just because we have to meditate but because we have to be deep, we have to grow within to express our great powers of divine love; to correct so many things, which you can do very easily − I know you all can do it. There’s no need to have big degrees for that, big education for that, nothing is needed. What is needed is a deep feeling of love for the whole universe, and that changes. The all-destructive forces change their course, and it is then for the constructive forces. But on the whole that works out much faster if you all do that meditation with sincerity, with intensity, with understanding. All right?

May God bless you.

It is much more than our music, much more than My lectures or anything, that we have to do. And now the course has to change. I am sure you people will take to the new course. So may God bless you for that. Have you got any questions?

Yogini: There seems to be some difference of opinion on parts of the body that are represented here, and here, and there. Could You tell us please, Shri Mataji?

I see. These chakras are represented outside also in our body, we can say, that on our feet as you know: you know the Nabhi, Nabhi is the thumb* [Shri Mataji uses ‘thumb’ and ‘finger’ here to denote the toes.] [aside: You be seated and I’ll tell you; you’ll know] − Nabhi is the thumb, and left and right Nabhi. Then second finger from the thumb is the Vishuddhi, the third finger is the Swadishthana, the fourth finger is the Agnya, and the fifth finger is the Heart. Now this is the − our basis.

Then in the hands they change, as you know. In the hands you know very well, I need not tell about the hands. Now in your hand, we can say, this one [left shoulder] here is the Lalita Chakra, also is the part of the Vishuddhi Chakra. It works out the Vishuddhi Chakra, Lalita Chakra. And then this is the Nabhi [elbow] and this is the Vishuddhi [wrist]. Swadishthana is in between, you can say. Now, Heart is here [little finger] so any time you have this finger paining too much, then you must know there’s some trouble with the Heart. But Heart is not in all these things, but sometimes, sometimes it could be felt here. [left upper arm] Heart Chakra can be felt here with a reflection maybe, on this side.

So we can do like this, is to say: Vishuddhi, Heart, then Nabhi, then Swadishthana, and then… sorry! This is the Vishuddhi [shoulder], this is Swadishthana [upper part of upper arm], this is Heart [lower part of upper arm], and this is Nabhi [elbow], and this one is – [laughing] I never use them, so I just don’t know! − Heart [lower arm], and this is Vishuddhi [wrist]. All right?

But you can feel it sometimes even Heart here [upper arm], because if Swadishthana is very active, your Heart goes out, so you can feel it here. It’s a very important thing that we should have that discrimination, because if I tell you something, maybe you are not yet that level of discretion, and you may get confused. So this is the Vishuddhi. [wrist] Now there is pain here: that means there is problem with your Vishuddhi. Now sometimes you have a problem, say, on your Vishuddhi − now you can pull this finger. Just to pull the finger nicely, and you’ll be surprised, the vibrations coming out of left Vishuddhi. Any one, you have any problem, you can pull them. And that is how all the chakras are placed in the body.

In the same way, downward if you move, this is the Nabhi [knee], this is the Swadishthana – both are Swadishthana [hip and upper leg] – and this is the Heart [lower leg], and this is the Vishuddhi at the ankle bone. This is Vishuddhi at the ankle bone. So the main thing to remember are the Vishuddhis, because Vishuddhi, Nabhi and Swadishthan: these three are important, because they go off immediately as soon as − supposing there is a Nabhi patient sitting with you, you’ll immediately have a problem on your Nabhi [knee]. But these [upper and lower leg] sometimes manifest, not all the time, so they can be confusing. But Swadishthana specially. Like, when I got down in Canberra, I just couldn’t walk, both the Swadishthanas went like that, you see. I didn’t know how to move. It was terrible because both the Swadishthanas were caught up − for a while, but they were. So it is indicative of those things.

Yogi: Shri Mataji, could You please tell us more about Hamsa Chakra?

Shri Mataji: Hamsa Chakra? Hamsa Chakra is placed here [at top of nose] where some of the nerves which are coming from Ida and Pingala cross over, and is a part of Vishuddhi Chakra. Plus the connection with Vishuddhi and Agnya, as you must have read in the Devi Mahatmyam that Shri Krishna is the Father of Christ, so the connection between the two is maintained here. And this is very important, Hamsa Chakra is, that if your Hamsa Chakra is not all right, your discretion is very poor.

This chakra will get easily dried out. Like if you eat very dried food, you see. Say, sometimes you also offer Me some dried food, and I have to tell you that not to give too dry food. You must eat it with some sauce or some liquid thing, because if you eat very dry food, also this becomes very dry. And it’s very important because if this portion becomes dry, you can put some oil or ghee into it to make it all right. But from here starts the drying of the peritoneum, is the lining. If the peritoneum gets dried up, the whole body gets dried up. It can be anywhere; in the lung if it is dried up it can cause you lung cancer, as even the peritoneum can be in a cancer state. So one has to be very careful not to take something very dry – all the time dry food and dry things. Moreover, not to put anything to make this a lubricant − some sort of a lubricant should be there so there’s no problem on this chakra. Because first of all it loses your discretion, you don’t understand things, you don’t know what to do. You mean it, you mean good, but you don’t do. When you achieve something, it’s something not so good. The reason is your discretion is poor. For that this must not be made dry.

I have told many a times to put some ghee every day. Get a little bottle of ghee, keep it with you with a little dropper. You can put it in the hot water, you can heat it up every day, and take two drops in the nose in the night and in the morning time. It doesn’t take much, but it should be done. It’s for your good. That’s the only ritual I think we follow, do we − have we any other ritual? We don’t even make a cross! Anything else?

Yogi: Shri Mother, last two years ago when You were here at Burwood, You were saying how we’ve gone beyond nirvichara and we’re into savikalpa, and we’re reaching nirvikalpa. Could You please tell us a little about savikalpa?

Shri Mataji: First stage is nirvikalpa where you become thoughtless in between, then you become, again come to thought, again you become thoughtless. That’s a very good stage where you start, and you start growing up into that. Now savikalp can be before or after this stage, like savikalpa is − ‘vikalpa’ means doubt, and ‘savikalpa’ means with doubt. So you are still growing with the doubts in your mind. There are people who still grow with doubts in their mind.

For example you see, somebody feels hurt in Sahaja Yoga, some way he’s hurt that: ‘I’ve been hurt in Sahaja Yoga’ − something, the subconscious is there. Then he still has that feeling within himself, ‘I’m hurt, but still I must do Sahaja Yoga, it is good.’ Mentally he accepts and goes on with it, so he can get into nirvikalp state with that. Or maybe he gets to nirvikalpa state and then again goes to savikalpa. That’s a flashback. And could be he can say, ‘All right, I’ll reach to nirvichara, but from nirvichara I can go to, you see, my doubts also. After all I have my doubts, what things and this and that is possible.’ And some people have a hidden anger within themselves, or kind of a hidden feelings or hidden things which he’s not very aware of, so he has also got the vikalpas with him.

So with savikalpa samadhi is that, so it can be after or before nirvichara samadhi. So I mean, you go, fall on to it sometime. So we’ll have to go beyond actually savikalpa, because nirvichar samadhi is not sufficient enough. All the vikalpas, all the doubts must go away, then you’ll reach the state of nirvikalpa. Then there’s no doubt, there’s no problem. There are many among you who are like that, who are not yet aware that they are like that. That’s why I’m requesting you to develop this new dimension in your creative work.

Yogi: Shri Mataji, how can we sustain a deep meditation in our day, through our daily activities, our jobs and things like that? When we reach a height in meditation, how can we sustain that during our whole day and not just, say, at the time of meditation?

Shri Mataji: How can we say?

Yogi: How can we sustain that meditation, meditation throughout the day – sustain the meditation that we’ve had in the morning.

Shri Mataji: You see, you are in meditation in a way. You are half in meditation and halfway not. Now if you try to develop a state of witness, then you are in meditation − just a state of witness. Whatever you see, just watch it. Just watching is the best way, and then you’ll be surprised that you will find that you are in another world, and these people are only in another world. You are seeing them from another world. Then you will have compassion for them, you will have pity for them, you may also not like them − it’s all these feelings will come up to you, but you’ll be a person who is separated from them.

Yogi: Sometimes you can feel that you yourself, in your centre you are all right, but you move in circumstances that cause a disharmony in some other part of you.

Shri Mataji: That is the savikalpa state. That is you move, you see, though you are in that state of nirvichara, still you move to savikalpa state where you again get vikalpa. But you are, you are after all a realised soul, you see. So they have made three clear-cut things that, you can have savikalpa samadhi, you can have nirvichara samadhi and you can have pure nirvikalpa samadhi. Now from even that state, you see, you can get to that, and that’s what you have to cut out − is to, when you see such a situation where you get involved, then you say, ‘This is not, this is not,’ and come out of it. It’s a practice, a little practice can tell you. Like driving: by practice you master it in the same way.

When I know something is wrong, I know it is wrong and I know that they are doing wrong, but I just keep quiet and then they know what it was wrong and what was right. It is better to make others learn by mistakes than to tell them. No one likes to be told. Then they learn themselves by mistakes: ‘Yes, I’ve done this mistake, that mistakes. I’ve ruined my life. Now come along.’ But if you tell them, they can be very reluctant or could be vindictive also.

Yogi: Shri Mataji, could You tell us some more about the conscious mind?

Shri Mataji: The conscious mind? What do you want to know about the conscious mind? You see, conscious mind is the mind where you are awake and see things. But there is also unconscious mind behind it; and there’s a subconscious mind, and there’s supra-conscious mind, and beyond the supra-conscious there is also collective supra-conscious, and beyond the subconscious there is collective subconscious.

There’s unconscious mind. The unconscious mind is in a way, we can say is the Kundalini. Now when She enters into your conscious mind, you become enlightened. The conscious mind is the mind that is aware of the surroundings, aware of everyone being there, aware of all the things. But an enlightened conscious mind which is of a high level is much more conscious of things than you are. For example, I am quite conscious of people who are catching on the Heart, and I’m quite conscious of the people who are not yet there; I’m quite conscious of the people who are perfectly there, and I’m quite conscious of the people who are nowhere near. But it’s all right for Me, because I with My conscious mind can raise them up. So it’s a different situation with Me.

But with other people could be that your conscious mind is all the time, depending on your level of advancement, may be worried about small, small things, like: ‘I have to go home now and it’s getting late, and will I get a bus or not?’ Could be like that. Then there could be another conscious mind which is thinking about how far I can meditate, how far I can go with it, all kinds of things. But there could be a conscious mind which is enlightened, if it is enlightened, it’s just getting all the essence of what I am saying, and developing and nourishing itself.

So when you are enlightened, the conscious mind is something like a tree into which the sap is now flowing. It may be that it is just like a leaf or it may be it is like a flower, or maybe it is like a fruit. So it changes its forms once he gets realisation. If a person gets realisation, then the conscious mind goes on getting more and more light. Say for example when the electricity comes, you can see this room, you can see another’s room, you can see another room, you can go round and see and again, again you will see it all the rooms; then you become aware of all the rooms, so you are conscious of all these. But in the beginning you are just conscious of the room where you are standing, isn’t it?

So the conscious mind’s definition cannot be given after realisation. A person like Me, say for example, has a conscious mind that might envelop the whole world. Or a conscious mind of a person who is realised soul who is still not anywhere, just started, then he’s only conscious as to where is right, where is left, where is this. So before the realisation, the conscious mind sees things around you. Out of that also there are categories. Some people see, say, for artists can see something, and a scientist can see something, another poet will see something, so it depends on the conscious mind how it is, has got the trend. But still it won’t see something that is subtle behind it, and that only is possible after you get your realisation. All right?

Yogi: Mother, sometimes ego masquerades as guru. How can we tell when that’s going on in us?

Shri Mataji: You see, when ego comes up − I don’t know much about it, you see, because I haven’t got! We can say when ego comes up, then a person becomes arbitrary. First thing is he becomes arbitrary. He’ll start deciding: ‘I’ll have this, I’ll have that, I like this’ − you see? This is the one thing. Secondly it takes out itself from the collective, becomes very arbitrary, collective removes itself from you. But the Spirit is the other way round. Spirit is, it cares for the collective. It doesn’t become arbitrary at all and it never says: ‘I like, I want.’ Its ‘I’ drops out. You see, you can easily see, very easily with your discrimination that egoistical person is not even liked by the person who has ego. If he sees himself in the mirror he says, ‘Oh God, what’s this wretched nonsense? What a temperament it is!’ It will not like itself.

There was a girl, lady who was a very hot-tempered woman and once she came to My puja, and I said, ‘Now what is this heater you have brought before Me, in India in the hot season?’ − one heater put before you. I said, ‘Oh God, please remove her, she’s like a heater.’ Nobody understood it, you see, but I said, ‘Please remove her.’ So then they asked her to get down: ‘Mother can’t bear you.’ Then she was very angry, and, ‘What is this? What’s wrong with me? What have I done?’ After some time, you see, people said that, ‘We have nothing to do….’ then nobody would talk to her, she was left alone, and then she was also very unhappy about it because she was left alone. She thought, ‘What’s this? This is insulting. Why should they leave me alone?’ Then after some time, she realised that: ‘There must be something wrong with me, I must find out. There’s something nonsensical about it, something filthy on me. I should throw it away.’ Then she started working it out and seeing herself and all that, and she became a very, very sweet person. But she dare not face Me, was quite afraid. So her daughter came to see Me one day. I said, ‘How is your mother?’ She said, ‘Mother, she’s all right.’ ‘You ask her to come and see Me.’ So she said, ‘And I have never felt such joy as I felt that day when You called me.’ I said, ‘I knew you have improved so much.’ She came. I had taken a watch for her. She said, ‘Mother, You have brought a watch for me?’ I said, ‘Yes, I have brought a watch for you.’ She said, ‘Thank God that filth has gone, thank God! Fed up of it!’

That’s how when you develop, then that sweetness, the beauty, everything comes up. But you see the ego is: if you play upon your ego it adheres to you. You get identified with it, and you cannot get rid of it. But I have seen one case which is such a beautiful case is, and I was sitting in My room and I could feel with the child when she came in, and I asked her, ‘Where is your mother?’ She was herself surprised. I mean, she told her mother. She said, ‘I’ve never had such a joy! Such a joy I had that, oh, Mother has recognised me.’ I said, ‘I always recognised you.’ So this is what it is.

Yogini: The Sahasrara is represented by the lotus flower, at the moment, is the lotus flower starting to lose its petals and the fruit develop? [question is then repeated for Shri Mataji by another Yogi]

Shri Mataji: You see, it is represented as lotus because our brain is like a lotus. Actually, if you cut it horizontally, you can see as if you have cut the petals, and if you cut it vertically you can see that, around the limbic area, it is just like petals of lotus. But when you are enlightened what happens, they swell up and they open out, and they all have beautiful colours. They look like tongues of flames, and it’s very beautiful. Now the Sahasrara is open and the lotus is open, and inside you find the fruit already there kept, which is the Agnya Chakra which you see is there. You can see it very clearly. Agnya is yellow, yellow-covered as we say, like a gold cap, is the Agnya there: beautiful Agnya is inside.

Now the fruit of the lotus is later on we see, and I would say that is called as bindu state, where you become a bindu − a dot, it’s a little dot − and that dot has to then grow. So it’s the second stage starts when you become the fruit of the lotus.

Yogi: Shri Mother, could You say something about those higher chakras above the Sahasrara?

Shri Mataji: What chakra?

Yogi: I’ve heard people talk about the Bindu and the Adhu-bindu, and the higher chakras above that…

Shri Mataji: You see, I don’t think you should worry too much about these. There’s three stages higher than Sahasrara. I would suggest just now, let us concentrate on Sahasrara, is a better idea. But Bindu, Ardha-Bindu and Valaya are the three stages in which one has to pass through later on, and you would pass gradually when you develop yourself horizontally. That’s what we have started now, so let us keep to this idea that, we have to develop our self horizontally. We should see how we affect the other person, how we influence the another person.

For example some people, you see, they are very egoistical and all that, they may come in contact with you and say, ‘Oh, very nice person, charming person, this, that.’ But actually that person is just very physically may be attractive, or may be a little brilliant type of a person, but doesn’t have anything much in it. But if that person standing next to you changes the mood and temperament of another person, then you can say that this person has a spiritual personality. So let us see how you affect the nature. Flowers − you saw the miracle of the flowers that I performed for you the other day. In the same way, let us see what is the effect of your character on the trees, on your friends, or in the food that you make − everything changes, it’s very beautiful. So we have to see that, how it works out.

I have known people who have never known what is poetry is, suddenly they become poets. Some who were never musicians started singing so well. Like Christine, you know Christine, she never used to sing; she had a horrible voice. And suddenly she started singing like a cuckoo-bird! So not only you, but on others what effect is had? What others feel about you? You see, how you are kind, good and sweet to others, not superficially, but your behaviour should change another person, transform another person. Your presence should bring auspiciousness.

Yogi: Shri Mataji, whenever we have read the poems of Kabir and the saints, we feel the heart of them in their poetry, and their feelings for God. How can we develop that bliss and love[unclear] [question repeated and paraphrased by another Yogi: How can we develop that same heart that poets like Kabir have for You? How can we develop the same heart that these great poets have?]

Shri Mataji: Same heart as what?

Yogi: Kabir. The poet Kabir.

Shri Mataji: Why not? See the handicap of Kabir. You have no handicaps. Kabir had no Mother to tell him, no Mother to love him, look after him and tell him all these things. He had a guru, and you know Kabir’s life – Kabir wanted to become the disciple of Ramananda Swami, but he was a Muslim or low-caste or whatever it is, so he could not reach Ramanand Swami. The disciples would not allow him to go near Ramanand Swami. So one day Kabira went and slept on the steps of the River Ganges, whole night in the cold waiting for Ramanand Swami to come, because he used to always pass the same way. And his feet fell on Kabira and he said, ‘Oh my child, what are you doing here?’ So Kabira got up and he said, ‘Sir, you have accepted me as your disciple today.’ He said, ‘Yes, I have.’ And then Ramanand Swami took him and he trained him into something great.

You don’t have these handicaps, where Kabira never had anybody to support him or help him around. Actually single-handed he fought the whole world. Horrible people were around him; even today, those who are in his place in Patna or in all places where he lived − I was surprised that he described Kundalini as ‘surathi’ and they described tobacco as ‘surathi.’ Such horrible nonsensical people, making fun of everything. There Kabira lived and developed that heart. You don’t have all these handicaps at all. You all speak the same language, you live with the same ideas, you have your own Mother to tell you everything, so you can develop the same heart as Kabira had.

Yogi: Mother, when I meditate sometimes, I can see beautiful, like a massive flower coming out of the head or a beautiful, sort of a golden like, almost like a vase. And I’ve been asking people, and they don’t know really the answer, and I don’t know it either, but I have not taken…

Shri Mataji: That’s the Kundalini that you see. It is like a telescope, you see, like a goldenish, yellowish sort of a, like a heated…

Yogi: It’s like a furnace.

Shri Mataji: Yes, furnace, it’s like a furnace. That’s the Kundalini you see, and that’s a good thing to see. But when you see you are not there, so it’s better is not to see that. But what you see is that, is the Kundalini. It’s good, I mean seeing is very good, but to go beyond it. Say, ‘No, I don’t want to see it. Now I want to enter into it.’

Yogi: Yes. Last night for instance I was sleeping with my little girl, and in her bed she asked me to come, and we meditated, and it was enormous and I woke up, suddenly woke up.

Shri Mataji: In your dream you saw?

Yogi: I don’t know whether it was a dream or whether I was still meditating, but it was…

Shri Mataji: In dream if you see is very good, but otherwise in meditation you should not see it. In the dream if you see, it’s very good. It’s the Kundalini itself, it’s like a furnace; it looks like a silent burning furnace.

Yogi: Sometimes like fireworks. It’s quite beautiful.

Shri Mataji: Yes. But you shouldn’t see it anymore, all right? Try to avoid.

Yogi: Shri Mataji, could You just say something about pure attention please; how we purify our attention? How we sort of, look beyond the human form and the differences between each other? Could You say a little…

Shri Mataji: Pure attention? You see, your attention gets spoilt that when you put attention − say I put attention onto this glass, then I start thinking about this glass that, ‘Oh, it’s a beautiful glass so now, so it’s a very beautifully done one. Now somehow or other I should manage to steal it!’ [big laughter] Then attention moves further, ‘How can I manage to steal this? And what should I do, what is the best way of stealing it?’ and all those things. So the attention gives, you see, into problems and problems because I have got for this a greed; I develop a greed. How I’ve developed? Because you see, supposing I put My attention to it and then a thought starts from there coming to Me, a reaction as such, this gives you a reaction. Then you start seeing a beautiful Ganesha there, then you say, ‘Oh, I have never seen one like this,’ like that, the thought starts, you see, coming from all this. And that thought comes into My mind and gives Me ideas that I should do something like that, to steal the glass. All right?

Now, the pure attention would be that I just watch this without thinking. Anywhere that your attention goes and you start sort of getting involved into it or getting attached to it, you should try to just watch it without thinking. Go into thoughtless awareness, then you enjoy it the most. Now say for example, these carpets are very nice. One thing would be, if they belonged to Me, I would be worried how to insure them, all these people are sitting, that would be spoilt, this, that − all these thoughts will come into My head. Supposing these belonged to you, then I’ll think how to manage to take them with Me somehow, [laughs] and how to suggest in a very clever way something that I can manage to take them away.

Now that is quite human and one can do that way, but beyond that all cleverness and cunning, best is to appreciate. How? By just looking at it without any thought. Artist has created it, he has put all his joy into it; I’m just enjoying the joy, just looking at it. So when you start enjoying the joy your attention will become pure, very pure. Because the enjoyment of it is, makes you a very sort of a dedicated person about it, because you feel that what is in this world after all? It’s to enjoy. And if I have to enjoy everything, then why should I worry about getting it to Myself or stealing it, or doing all these tricks? Better is to enjoy. So the reward of it is so great that attention starts purifying itself.

Yogi: We tend to sort of react to things before we even know that we’ve reacted. It seems to be such a fast process that we look and we react in seconds. It’s just like that.

Shri Mataji: Yes, in the beginning it is, because you are coming from that, you see, style to the other style. But once you settle in this style, then you’ll just react in this manner that you’ll just watch. But it otherwise also works out. I’ll tell you a story. They had given Me about sixteen beautiful crowns − of course I couldn’t wear them − for this Krishna Puja in Switzerland, and all the English were bringing them, ‘smuggling’ them into England, and all these boxes were kept. So when they reached the custom post, the custom post asked them, ‘What are all these?’ They said, ‘All right, you can have a look.’ So they passed on one to them. So the first fellow looked at it and then he passed to another one, then another one given. Like that four were passed on to them, and they were all looking at it, you see. And then they said, ‘Now what do you say?’ Nothing. They closed it and gave it to them. [laughter] Then they looked back − these boys, what has happened to them where they were – they were just moving like this. And so many cars passed, but these people never looked at any cars, they were just… So they had a bliss casualty − also this can happen, bliss casualty! So better to see things which can cause bliss casualty, and once you get into that habit, then you don’t take to other useless things. Then you like to see only things which can give you bliss. Your attention changes.

Yogi: Mother, please, what is the Omkara? I’ve heard the word.

Shri Mataji: The Omkara? Is the first sound. When the Shakti departed from Sadashiva, from the God Almighty − His Power, His Desire departed − it made the first sound: that’s the first child, we say, of God. That’s Omkara. A-U-M is the thing, and these are the three Powers which are represented as Mahakali, Mahalakshmi, Mahasaraswati. And also all these are combined together to form Shri Ganesh.

Yogi: Mother, what is Your vision for Sahaja Yoga?

Shri Mataji: This is the one, started already. My vision for Sahaja Yoga is that, that all the good people, righteous people, God-loving people will rise above all that is useless, worldly, and reside in the Heavens with all the blessings of God, forever and ever.

All right? So we can have a music, because without that you won’t feel it is complete. Let’s hear the song…

Yogi: Is John Smiley here?

Shri Mataji: I hope somebody is recording the radio program? 

Yogi: Yes, yes. Just finding our music co-ordinator, Shri Mataji.

 Shri Mataji: All right. You have your harmonium there, I saw it. 

Yogi: We might just use the guitar tonight. Harmonium takes up too much space.

Shri Mataji: Is it? Did you hear the tape from Pune children? Wasn’t it fine? Very good, isn’t it? You have to make copies of that and send it over. It’s very good music and very good songs…  [Yogi: ‘O Queen of Sahasrara, O Queen of Sahasrara.’ Shakti of Lord Brahma.] Such small girls they are, you see, all of them. They have made and composed everything done, and sang so clearly. It’s really remarkable. Nobody has taught them anything. 

[after a few bhajans]

Shri Mataji: It all seems to be very new songs to Me. This has recently been published?

Yogi: Here, at the Australasian National Centre, Mother, last year [Shri Mataji: I see.] and we took to India. It was presented to all the nations, Shri Mother, at Ganapatipule [Shri Mataji: I see.] to India, and all the other Sahaja Yogis. 

Shri Mataji: Because mostly you sang the same songs, you see, so I didn’t know that you had made some new songs so beautifully. 

Yogi: These two song, Mother were written in England.

Shri Mataji: Really?

Yogi: I think this one is Bala’s song.

Shri Mataji: Bala. I think this one, ‘Mother, I want to see You,’ is much the song these days, [laughs] because he’s lost there. All the time he’s writing this to Me, every letter.

Yogi: We don’t need to sing that today, Mother.

Shri Mataji: You’re all right. [Yogi announces: ’Kundlalini Mata.’] And who has written that one?

Yogi: From Europe, I think.

Shri Mataji: Grégoire? [‘Namostute’ is also sung]

Shri Mataji: [unclear] Are you going to sing some more? Are you? At this time, I was told that in this tour, there have been problems for people, and they have been quite inconvenient. I’m sorry for that, and this time I assure you, we try to make better arrangements for you. You may not tell Me, but I find out everything. [another bhajan announced, Shri Mataji asks for tabla player] He’s playing all right, he plays well. [Marathi aside] He was doing very well. 

In this song, a little pronunciations you can ask him – any song Marathi is there. [Amhi Bigadalo Tumhi Bighadana and He Adi Ma are sung] 

Shri Mataji: This one, police casualty. Have you heard the story of police casualty? They were talking those crowns –sixteen of them, smuggling into England, you see. They reached the Custom point, and the Custom people said, ‘What are you carrying?’ They said, ‘Have a look,’ so they saw one and passed it on to another, they saw another, passed it on, like four of them, they saw each other, and looked at each other and… He said, ‘What’s wrong? You’d better go.’ So they gave the thing back, and they were all in Police casualty, moving about everywhere. And so many cars passed out everything, [unclear] in Police casualty. [laughter] 

[Amhi Matajinchya Charnashi Alo is sung]

Shri Mataji: It’s a very beautiful song; I hope you understand the meaning of this song. Is it giving the meaning there? [Yogi reads text in English] Let him have this [microphone] so everyone can hear; it’s wonderful.

Yogi One: Excuse me, Shri Mataji, the radio interview tonight – we’ve got that hooked up on the PA system if You wish to listen to it, perhaps later on in the evening.

Shri Mataji: All right, tomorrow?

Yogi One: Yes, we can also do it…

Shri Mataji: So how did it work out?

Yogi One: I think it went well?

Yogi Two: Yes, it did, it went very well.

Yogi One: They asked good questions. 

Shri Mataji: And two wise men answering them. [laughter] It’s true, no doubt. [Aside in Hindi to musicians. Another bhajan is sung]

Shri Mataji [laughing]: Such a praise, you know. It’s too much, it’s unbearable. I used to think how Markandeya could say so many things about Me in such details. Now I find Sahaj Yogis are quite clever too. [speaks aside] One more song is all right, otherwise you get drunk. 

Yogi: You get drunk with joy, Mother.

Shri Mataji: Drunk with joy. [Bhaya Kai Taya is sung] Read the meaning of this; it’s meant for Sahaja Yogis. In the praise of Sahaja Yogis. Is there the meaning, in this one?  

Yogi: We don’t have the translation.

Shri Mataji: Oh, I see. The meaning is that: What is there fear in the person with whom God is residing. And the whole song is like this, that: Why should you worry about death? God is with him. It’s all description of the Sahaja Yogis; why should they have any fears. I will get it translated properly for you. 

Yogi: May we sing Aarti to You, Mother? [Aarti and Three Great Mantras are sung]

Shri Mataji: May God bless you all. May God bless you. May God bless you all. [unclear/It’s difficult for some people, I imagine.] May God bless you. May God bless you all. First class Kundalinis, all of you have got. Something to be seen: beautiful. Beautiful Kundalinis. May God bless you all. So gratifying. 

So tomorrow, I hope you all will be there, [laughter] and bring many more with you. May God bless you.