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Kew Ashram, Melbourne (Australia)

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TRANSCRIPT OF CONVERSATION AT KEW ASHRAM MELBOURNE, 1987-0512

Shri Mataji: Really?

Sahaja Yogi: Can’t… can’t focus Yes.

Shri Mataji: The whole mind is conditioned.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: I mean, absolutely. It is like a record. Like a gramophone record going round.

Shri Mataji: Yes. I have seen this in China when, I went there when Mao was there. See, the girl used to tell us anything as if it was a record – she was just saying it, without even thinking about it. See then I felt that this is some sort of a possession this girl has got.

But now, of course, Chinese have got their freedom and they are much better people, I mean they’re not that kind. But in the beginning, they did that like that in China and this is how they just conditioned them. But all our theological colleges, all these people are the same. They are just trying to find out how to condition people.

I mean, if they give all their business and just take to God, they will be so very much happier. And all this effort will be lost. Very serious things. You see, for Christian community especially I think, it is that because of these barriers, they may never reach God. It’s all right for Christians in the West because they have seen the nonsense of it, most of them.  But in the countries like ours, you see which are developing, for them Christianity being so sophisticated, so good – you see to them, Christians mean something great. My husband was telling Me that his own uncle wanted to become a Christian because he found that Hindu religion was so absurd, and the priests were so absurd. So he was so enamoured by Christians. [Shri Mataji laughs] I tell you.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: I suppose our biggest problem is the Christians. We really don’t have any other barrier here. We have quite a few Muslims. They can be a bit fanatical too.

Shri Mataji: And the conversion, you see. Conversion is another problem. Conversion in India is more in the places where there are jungles and things where the people are absolutely away from society. So for them, money is very important, and the way these people take the missionaries and their [UNCLEAR] food and this and that, so they are converting you. I mean donkeys after donkeys. But they have created problems for us in the way, that these people say who are living in Khasia, Jaintia, all these places you see – a former Nagaland sort of a thing. And this Nagaland business is all a Christian problem.  They have all become Christians you see and don’t understand anything. At the time of Christ, I don’t know if He ever went to this; it’s such primitive people. But Christianity has gone to them. They don’t understand anything – A to Z.

Now they came to Lal Bahadur Shastri, out Prime Minister and they said that, “We must have our sovereignty.” That’s what they said. They had written it down in their language, ‘sovereignty’.

So Shastriji asked, “What is sovereignty?” “That we don’t know. We want our sovereignty.” “Then, what is sovereignty you want?”  Then they said, “This is what we have. We know one thing.”  Then they said, “But what is it? That we don’t know.”  “But why do you want it?”  “That we don’t know.  We want our sovereignty.” To the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister said, “Oh God, these Christians.”  And they were wearing suits and hats, funny hats and suits and all Western dresses, you see. And they are all Christians in Nagaland. And all stupid people. This is what they had got it, you see on a paper. “We want our sovereignty.”  Finished.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: He could have given them anything.

Shri Mataji: I was thinking, he should have given them some sort of an odd paper and said, “This is sovereignty, you take it back.”  They would have taken it.  Such things they have got. And it’s created a problem – this Nagaland is a problem for India now.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: It’s the missionaries who have created.

Shri Mataji (in Marathi): Yes, the missionaries. They wrote it down in their language, “You go and meet Shastriji and when you go there tell him, we want our sovereignty, finished.”  But Shastriji was non-plussed. He said, (in Marathi) “Then what next?”  And in English, you see, (Shri Mataji switching between Marathi and English here) “We want our sovereignty.” “Why do you want it, sir?” 

“That we do not know. We want our sovereignty.”

I tell you. When Shashtriji told us, I didn’t know where to look.

He said, “But this is too much. Just written down that word in English – I mean this sentence – and they were reading it out to me all the time. They would not say what is sovereignty, why sovereignty – nothing.”

Now missionaries then educated them. Now the idea of missionaries – because Church is always confused with…I mean the ruling people, like the kings and queens and also politics – so now they are confused with that. So they want to create a Christian land. As it is, we have one Hindu land, one Muslim land. Then we have one Sikh land. Then we’ll have one Christian land. And there’s one Bangla land.

So I don’t know how many parts of that country there are going to be, of according to the religions. And nobody follows it, that’s the best part of it. And if you see, I saw the other day when our Prime Minister went to Nagaland, they made him wear a hat and he was dancing there. You wear a hat according to [UNCLEAR]Christians. You see, many Christians in India believe that Christ was born in England.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: And that he was himself a Christian.

Shri Mataji: Yes. He Himself was a Christian and was born in England. This they believe, actually they believe in it. See there is a story, an interesting story of a villager who was living… he used to come to Allahabad from his village. And he became a Christian. So he would always go to the river Ganges, have a bath and go back. So the priest told them, “Now you can’t do, you see, your religion has changed, you cannot do that. Now you have become a Christian. You can’t go to the river.”  River Ganges, the Christians don’t go in India, do you know?  They don’t go to the river Ganges. So he said in his own language, “Sir, I have become a ‘sahib’,” means, I have become an Englishman “But I cannot give up my religion.”  He thought he had become a sahib.

And the names are also, they will change it like this. You see, like this gentleman’s name was Blondie. So ‘bhura’ (blond) means ‘bhura’. So he said, “Give me a good name, like Alexander’s name.”  So they called him Alexander Bhura, you see. So his name was Alexander Bhura, so he thought he had become a sahib you see, an Englishman. “And now they are asking me to give up my religion also, is too much. I can’t give up my religion. I will go to Gangaji.”

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: It’s very sad though, what the missionaries did. I know in Hawaii and places like that, they destroyed what – from what I’ve read – appears to have been a very enlightened religion, which would have allowed, for instance, Sahaja Yoga to just…they would have understood it instantly. And the Christians just chopped it off. In one generation. Of course the things that Cortez did in Central America; terrible. Every…

Shri Mataji: Horrible things…

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Every book that had ever been…held any knowledge that the Aztec came was destroyed. 

Shri Mataji: I mean, there is a history behind the whole thing. Thank God Columbus missed his point, went to America. Otherwise, there would have been no Sahaja Yoga here. There would be all Americans roaming about in India, I think. With their AIDS, or with that kind of a trouble that they have, because that would have been the thing.

I think Hanumana must have done that job, to take Columbus away. Because I can’t understand. This fellow, such a clever man, went all the way from England – I mean from… Columbus was from Portuguese, was he? From Portugal, he went to a place – Spanish, he was Spanish, I think: Spanish. He should have gone to India, I don’t know how he reached America, you see. So must be Hanumana’s trick.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: That’s a long way.

Shri Mataji: That’s a (laughs), he was… But they killed all the people.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: He did call that continent India.

Shri Mataji: Yes.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: That’s why we have the Red Indians.

Shri Mataji: Yes. Red Indians. But the poor Red Indians were killed and massacred completely. I mean the white people wherever they went, they massacred  all kinds. You see, the French, the Portuguese…I tell you, the Portuguese now they look so horrid. But when they came to India – near Bombay, you must have seen that Trimurti and all that. Did you go to see that Trimurti? That’s such a rock, black rock. And to hewn into it with this beauty was really… must have been remarkable.

But these people thought this rock cannot be broken with anything, so they took cannons on the ship and blasted it. That is such a strong rock that even now if you have to nail them, you cannot put a drill on that. So, such a strong rock it is. And they made such beautiful designs and things. But they blasted it. They were so much against all these things, these Portuguese. So many temples, beautiful temples they demolished. And the English also – terrible the English were – English killed so many people in Calcutta. In a hole, they put them in a hole, known as ‘Hole of Calcutta’. And so many people were killed.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: Black hole.  Black hole of Calcutta

Shri Mataji: Black hole of Calcutta. And in Dhaka…

Indian Sahaja Yogi: Jallianwala Bagh. 

Shri Mataji: Jallianwala Bagh, another thing. Just killed people just like that.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: In 1942.

Shri Mataji: 1942 yes, I was there.  Yes, yes. They troubled Me and tortured Me. They put Me on ice and all, they gave Me electric shocks –all of them know all about it.

Horrible. They think they have a right, you see to possess somebody. This is plundering, this is plundering. Go to somebody’s country, take away everything, plunder that person and become the king?  Pirates, I tell you.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: [UNCLEAR] It’s been that for a long time.

Shri Mataji: Terrible thing they have done. But this killing people – now, in Dhaka, there were people who used to make beautiful ‘malmal’ (fine muslin), you see. A kind of a very thin cloth.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: Very beautiful.

Shri Mataji: Very beautiful cloth. So thin, they used to develop the nails. And in there was a little hole they used to make. And out of that, they used to take out. It was a wonderful thing that one whole dhoti could be put into a small little shell of a …

Indian Sahaja Yogi: Walnut.

Shri Mataji: Walnut. The whole dhoti could be put inside a walnut. And they killed them. All of them, they cut their thumbs you see, they cut their thumbs. So jealous.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: Because the mills of Manchester sell that cloth there..

Shri Mataji: I mean, you cannot compete with Manchester, because that was…this thing. But just an idea. It’s not that… I mean, all of them the English, the French, wherever they went, horrible. French have ruined so many people. Now, this Sierra Leone where these people went – actually, there are Australians working but there are people who are…there are French, I think. The people who are ruling that place is French. They are so cruel to these people that they have taken to Sahaja Yoga now. They’re extremely cruel.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: It’s there all the way through that part of Africa.

Shri Mataji: Portuguese were such cruel people I tell you. Horrible.  Now they have become very poor. But all this white skin had that idea of aggressing others, of plundering others, and sort of ruling everyone. Spanish. Spaniards are also bad. The whole of America is covered by these Spaniards. I mean, they didn’t kill us so much, the English, I must say – the way they were killed by these Spaniards for no reason at all.

I went to this Rio de Janeiro, and I wanted to see one aboriginal. One person was [living?] there. They said, “We don’t have. You can go in the museum and see.” But not one single person left by these Spaniards group. Now did you see the condition of the Spanish, where are they?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: In Brazil, Mother they still have – it seems almost awful to say it, but they still have hunting parties where you can pay to go on a hunting party to shoot Indians.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: Shoot an Indian?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Yeah. And the reason is money again, because they want to get them out of the forests so that they can go in and take the land. So they have safaris. And you know who, the nation that goes the most?  The Germans. 

Shri Mataji: Oh! Germans are very cunning. Now they are all settled down there. This Argentina – that was the only time I was happy that Argentina was defeated. Because all the Germans are there. They are teaching them all these things. They are the ones who started the war.  When I went to Argentina – gone for a navy parade – and I was surprised they were having those steps, you see, goose steps they call them, like that. I said, I told My husband, “How are they having goose steps, these Argentineans?” He was also surprised you see because these only Germans do. So when we asked them, they were shocked and they said, “We have some German teachers.”

But all Germans who have run away from the wartime are settled in Argentina. And they had big arrangements to destroy the whole world. So this has shattered; that’s the only point where the British have done something very sensible. Maybe I was in England –   very great – that they have finished those Germans. Though it has caused them a lot of problems, no doubt. But that was a sensible thing to do. Because so many Germans have ruined – already building all kinds of things there.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: In Paraguay, just north of there too, there’s a lot of Germans.

Shri Mataji: But then the war between themselves. Look at that. Then the Germans start fighting them. Germans didn’t go out, you see, that is the thing is. Germans did not fight the people outside Europe or outside their territories. What they wanted to fight is the English, the Russians, all those people who are Europeans – there. – Polish. So they started fight among themselves.

You see, violence is such that if you start doing violence to anyone, it comes back to you. And among yourselves, you start fighting. And even now, Germans you cannot say. They are like sleeping tigers. I went to Germany Myself – West Germany is all right, but East Germany I went to – it’s like a… you feel like dead cemeteries are everywhere. But also through them, you feel there’s a big violence building, even now. They’re very hot-tempered, violent people. You feel as if you have come into some hothouse. Only once I went and I told C.P. I am not going to come back again to this country: East Germany. Horrible.

(in Marathi) Even now the people are so hot-tempered.

Today if you… I tell you Russians what they are doing it’s… thank God. If you allow them to come up, they can destroy the whole world.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: They will try again too…

Indian Sahaja Yogi: Hitler could be born only in Germany. No other place.

Shri Mataji: Really?

Indian Sahaja Yogi: And there are many who worship Hitler even now.

Shri Mataji: Many. In East Germany, everyone. They just say it was a political mistake.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: That he attacked Russia.

Shri Mataji: Hmmm 

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Same mistake as Napoleon made.

Shri Mataji: That’s what is the play. Krishna Leela is there. But Germans – I mean they are the cruellest, I think.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: No, the cruellest are the Japanese.

Shri Mataji: You can’t say because what I heard about them in Warsaw, Warsaw. They are so mean and so low-level. They took out the fats of the people and used them for soap making.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: That was in Hitler’s time.

Shri Mataji: Hitler’s time I am saying – Warsaw.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: They made lampshades out of their skin. 

Indian Sahaja Yogi: They used the skin.

Shri Mataji: And Jews are no less now. Jews, they have picked up everything from Germans. And the way they are now torturing Palestinians. Oh God, that’s also terrible.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: They are taking the vengeance. They were tortured at the hands of Hitler. Now they are taking revenge from the Lebanese.

Shri Mataji: I don’t know it’s a revenge or a kind of a thing they saw in the war. They became experts and they thought we must practise now on Palestinians all those wretched things whatever they have gone through.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: There’s a lot of subtle things that came out of Hitler. Even though I know I shouldn’t, every time I see the Swastika, I get…

Shri Mataji: You get a fright. You see, that is the lucky point. What happened in Swastika, Swastika is two ways. One way is for construction, another is for destruction: another side.  What happened – the trick of the trade was like this; they were using stencils to make the Swastika. And then they… one side they used and when they started using the other side, it came out to be the other way round.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: The wrong way.

Shri Mataji: It’s Swastika that defeated them.

(in Marathi): Swastika has two emblems. One is constructive, the other is destructive. If it is like this then it is constructive, the opposite way is destructive. They were using stencils. When it got damaged on one side, they started using the other side. 

When I saw them upside down, I said, “Now finished. Now they are all right.”  Hitler himself started wearing upside-down thing.  

And as he says, Japanese – another. Another of this thing. I was telling him the reason, because in Japan, the mother is not respected. Mother is just a dishwasher. And the other women are geishas or dishwashers, or – what you call them, career girls. And the wives are dishwashers. So the mother is always ill-treated, she is given food outside, she doesn’t eat with the family; she’s treated just like a servant all the time. She has to take out (remove) the shoes of her husband, and she has to – I mean, do everything that a maidservant has to do in the house.

So the children who see their mother being treated like this develop that thing within themselves, that anger. That’s why they are very angry people. And the good-looking women and career women never marry. They never marry. And they never have children.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Because of this treatment?

Shri Mataji: And the…If there is a very rich man, then he has to pay a lot of money to marry a beautiful woman. Then he marries her. But he goes to geisha houses. They will never take you to their houses, their homes. If you see their women, their hands are like, just like washerwomen, you see, very rough and thick. They sleep on the ground separately, treated just like servants.

And they didn’t open their gates for ages to any other country.  They lived with all that nonsense. But Chinese are different. Chinese are like us. Their whole system is like us, their styles are like us, their whole morality sense is like us and also, they are very wise people. Very wise.

See we have had another problem I feel that way, that our Prime Ministers have been all, you see Western-oriented: educated in the Western countries. Except for Shastriji. You see Balsar, this is the difference. They never understood the value of our country. More impressed by Western people. Westernised people. Even this one. He likes people who can speak good English. Even Rajiv Gandhi.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: If they are Italians he likes them more, because his wife is Italian.

Shri Mataji: I don’t know if he cares for that or not, but he has very much inclination to a Westernised life. Not that kind, but still. That is one of the reasons, you see. They are not children of the soil. Except for Lal Bahadur Shastri. If he had lived, we would have been a different country you see. All dishonesty had vanished from India, all corruption had vanished. He was a very honest man. Wonderful things were happening.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: Corruption has come in. Honesty has vanished and corruption has come in. It has been impacted.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: I think honesty is the one that opens the door and lets corruption in though, isn’t it?  

Indian Sahaja Yogi: That’s right.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: You don’t expect people to be other than honest; they open the door and in they come.

Shri Mataji: It is kind of a habit [UNCLEAR perversion?]. You see, get into the habit of getting money this way, that way – then you start doing that all the time. I think that must be the reason. Because I have known people who were very good. Suddenly they become like that and they start grabbing this, grabbing that, grabbing that; there is no limit to things. There should be certain maryadas for everything.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Yes, I find in Western societies, maryadas is a thing that doesn’t exist.

Shri Mataji: Doesn’t exist in anything. In anything.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: It did.

Shri Mataji: It did. It did have. I mean, they were reaching that point. But before they could reach the Absolute, they just got into this problem, of materialism.

How can you, see be a free person if you don’t respect the freedom of another person? Maryada means that. To respect the freedom of another person is maryadas. And those maryadas one must have. Because of that, you do not respect the freedom of another person. You are aggressing each other all the time. Whenever he has the chance, he will aggress you or you will aggress him. So it will go on like that, you see.  But if you respect the freedom of another person – this is freedom, and this is my freedom. Then a maryada is put in there.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Then I suppose maryada means what Christ said, “Do unto others…”

Shri Mataji: As you want to be done to yourself.

Another Sahaja Yogi: Don’t hate.

Shri Mataji: But you see, they say that, “Why? Why should we do that?”  In England or in America or any of these places you go to – you tell them, you should do. “But why?”  But Christ has said it. “Who is Christ?”  In America, they say. England, they may not say so. But America, they say, “Who is Christ?  Why should we listen to?  Who is to tell us?”

Abraham Lincoln is nothing for them. You know there is only little Lincoln Road somewhere far away. They don’t regard him as anything great. So what to do?

Indian Sahaja Yogi: They have a story about that also. An American and a Russian were talking. The American said that, “We have such freedom in America that I can stand before the White House, the President’s house and say that our President is a fool.” The Russian said, “I also can do that.” He said, “Really, is that so?”  He said, “Yes, I can stand before your President’s house and say that he is a fool.” [All laugh]

Shri Mataji: But what I was telling him that, say in Russia, restricted life is given to them. But no maryadas. They don’t have maryadas, it’s only restricted life. Now they are starting some sort of a curtailing on drinking, say. Now that will go on. But there is… it’s just by force, you see. Maryadas are your own, ingrained – it’s the culture. So once they get out of that place then they drink like hell. Not that they’ve accepted from within, those things – that they are accepting these virtues as a part and parcel of their being. It’s just a force on them. So they are doing it.  But that day when they are doing it, then they are Sahaj. Sahaj, in a Sahaj way – maryadas come to you in a Sahaj way.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: It’s like tabla. Tabla.

Shri Mataji: Like tabla – it has to have rhythm. It cannot go on flowing with it. You cannot just start it and go into any rhythm or anything. You have to keep to that maryada. In everything in life, there is maryada. Otherwise, you wouldn’t know where you stand. I mean, the sea also has a maryada. The ocean has such a maryada that supposing you try to press the sea on one side of the harbour, it will come out in some other part. It starts showing in some other part.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: But not beyond that.

Shri Mataji: Not beyond. Supposing you try to raise the (land) – in Bombay they have done it, you see. They have raised Bombay in these areas like say, Marine Drive and all that. It has shown in other places. In Versova, the sea has entered the land. It keeps to its maryadas.

And it is such an uncertain society. If you don’t have maryadas, you don’t know how you stand with another person. You cannot find out your relationships with each other, you see. You cannot understand how far you can go with that person. It’s a very funny stuff, not to have maryada.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: I suppose one of the problems in Western society is that we have been taught to believe that you can’t have maryadas, because if you want to get on in this world in a business sense, you have to find some way of doing something better than someone else, which means that you have to tread on them to get higher up on the ladder.

Shri Mataji: But that can be done with maryadas also. You see, doing better than other means what?  Must have maryadas, isn’t it. Supposing there are two persons who are doing business. One person tries to outwit another person by false means or sort of, all kinds of other things. Luring him into something funny – like taking him to women, then do this and do that – all sorts of wrong things he takes to. How far will he go? But a person who goes in his maryadas can transcend everyone else, because he has kept his personality intact. He has not wasted it, frittered away or made it cheap.

And the idea of doing better is also money-oriented. But doing better in a general way is different. Like, I will tell you. Lal Bahadur Shastri was a man; when there was an accident – a railway accident in the South – he resigned. Means he was the Minister of Railways. He had nothing to do with that railway in particular or anything, but he resigned. Just resigned. “When I am the Railway Minister and if there is an accident, I should not be the minister.” He just resigned.  And everybody remembers it and tells about it, “See now what he has done.”  He had that maryadas. And there are many other railway ministers we have had who made money, did all this and everything. People don’t want to take their names in the morning time. “No God, no, don’t take their names in the morning.”

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: I don’t think we’ve got too many politicians who would do that. They would have fifty-four reasons as to why it was someone else’s fault.

Shri Mataji: Like Shivaji’s case, I will tell you one thing. Shivaji was a man of great maryadas. Shivaji’s people once looted a big treasures of a “subedar” (like a lord) – Kalyan subedar – and his daughter-in-law. She was going and with her, all her treasures were going. Very beautiful woman… and they brought her. And she came with her covering on her face, you see.

Indian Sahaja Yogi: Veil.

Shri Mataji: Ah, veil. And she was presented to Shivaji. So Shivaji asked her that, “You open your veil.”   She opened her veil. So, he said…he saluted her and he said, “See now, if my mother was as beautiful as you are, I would have been even more beautiful than you are.”  What a beautiful thing to say. You see, sisterly relationship. “If my mother was as beautiful as you are, I would have been even more beautiful than you.”  And he shouted at all his subedars and all. “Don’t do all such things. No insults to women.”  And he sent her back with all the things that she was carrying, plus his own…with his own army to leave, to be left up to the place where she was… from where she had come.

Man of such maryadas, you see. He never felt anything attractive or anything about her. He just felt, “A sweet sister of mine, such a beautiful sister. If I was…if my mother was as beautiful as she is, I would have been as beautiful as this.”  Just a sisterly feeling, to come to a man of maryadas. And he was forced to marry four times by his mother because you see, they had to do some sort of a pact with other people.  So he had to marry four times. Imagine. He married four times because mother asked him, but in maryadas. But when he saw such a beautiful woman, he just told her. Always he spent his life in the company of saints. Always. Such maryadas, you see; in a saint also, there are maryadas. Like a saint, like Tukarama. He went and saw him, and he saw the condition he was – Tukarama was very in a very poor condition. So he brought a lot of ornaments and everything and gave it to his wife and lots of food and all that in the house. So Tukarama came back and he told his wife that – and Shivaji was hearing what Tukarama had to say – he said, “See, this is meant for queens and kings, not for us. We are poor farmers, and it doesn’t behove for a farmer to wear all these expensive things. So you better return all this to Shivaji.”  Shivba, they used to call him Shivba. “But you see, whatever is suitable for your status, you wear that. That will look nice on you, this you better give. ” And he was surprised. But Shivaji was there. He came and fell at his feet, so he gave [UNCLEAR]

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Excuse me Shri Mataji, I think Your dinner would be ready soon.

Shri Mataji: What time we have to go?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: It’s about ten minutes drive Mother, just down the street.

Shri Mataji: And what time is the program?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Program is for seven-thirty…

Shri Mataji: Seven-thirty.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: so we will be there from seven o clock, maybe…

Shri Mataji: So if you think proper, I’ll come back and have dinner, because I am really not at all hungry. Alright? I’ll have some tea, that’s all.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: There is a note from… you know a K.C. Meddapa?

Shri Mataji: Who?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: K.C. Medappa? From India. K.C…

Shri Mataji: Madappa.

Australian Sahaja Yogi: Well, his sister is here, Mother. Sister’s name is Daya. She wishes an audience with you. She’s a doctor.  She says that you know this K.C.

Shri Mataji: Of course.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: We didn’t know whether it was someone that was just saying that they knew You when they didn’t. 

Shri Mataji: Madappa. Madappa was secretary of Sanjeeva Reddy. He has seen Me curing Sanjeeva Reddy and also curing so many people. Madappa. A friend of C.P. Oh, I would love to see him.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Actually it’s his sister. 

Shri Mataji: His sister, yes

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Yes, Doctor Ganapati, who is the sister of K.C.

Shri Mataji: Yes. So when would she like to see Me?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Well, we have a telephone number here, we could ring her.

Shri Mataji: And whenever she is free, ask her. Whenever she is free. See, tomorrow is a program, isn’t it?

Australian Sahaja Yogi: Tomorrow night, but tomorrow is free – tomorrow day. (Another yogi reminds about something) It’s eleven o’clock, is it?

Shri Mataji: Eleven o’clock what? 

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: There’s a newspaper man…

Shri Mataji: A person coming, eleven o’clock. Then, before that?  No?

Another Yogi: How about after two?

Shri Mataji: Or we can have it before the program tomorrow. Day after we are going, aren’t we?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: No wait. We are going on Friday, so tomorrow is Wednesday.

Shri Mataji: Then she can see Me on Thursday morning.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Thursday morning.

Shri Mataji: Thursday we will go out for shopping a little bit, I was thinking.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Ah, wonderful.

Shri Mataji: Because I want to show him also some things here. You make one thing, in that you get in Melbourne, the same thing I was telling you about.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Yes, Shri Mataji. 

Shri Mataji: That’s something you make. I have discovered four/five things you make in Melbourne.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: And you wanted to see Kerry too, Mother, sometime. Kerry?

Shri Mataji: I want to see him also, Kerry also. I want to see him, yes. So should we try on him after the program, anytime.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Thank you Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: Day after tomorrow?  After the program. There’s still time. A lot of time.

I don’t know when this started – taking money in the name of God.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: A long time ago I think, Mother.

Shri Mataji: But Martin Luther who was a realised soul, he flouted Mister Pope completely. And he brought him to task. But then again these same people have taken the same sort of a thing.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: I’ve often wondered whether Paul used to take money on the side.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: I’ll bet he did. I am sure he did. [All laugh] Paul, Mother.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: I never cared for Mister Paul.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: And somebody bought a couple of new horses or something.

Shri Mataji: He must be. Must be. He was not connected with God, he must be. You see, he must have changed his role just to make money. Otherwise, why did he become Christian?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: That’s what I thought. There must have been a reason for all this.

Shri Mataji: But he was hanged later on you know. He was hanged ultimately.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: I’m sure he always had the latest horse Mother. Like you have the latest car, he always had the newest horse, I’m sure.

Shri Mataji: Latest car. But I must say one thing – that people are also extremely, extremely stupid. (Yogi comments, ‘They’re gullible’) They get what they deserve. I went to Boston, I think, yes. And they asked Me a question, the TV people, “How many Rolls Royces She has?”  That time Rajneesh was on the top you see. So they said, “She has no Rolls Royces, She takes no money, we’re not interested.”  It’s a business you see.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: But of course, Mother the television industry itself is a business, and if they think there’s  no selling property in whatever it is that they… we offer them, then they don’t want to know, because they are selling advertising space.

Shri Mataji: That’s not their responsibility. Because television and all these things came on this earth – you can see from the photographs – the whole electrical energy was manifested in the brains of human beings for Sahaja Yoga.

Even if they accept or not, they must know that it is for Sahaja Yoga. For spreading Sahaja Yoga. Because Christ came, that time there were very few people, they could not spread Christianity, so they made all this mess out of it. But now there is television.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: They have been ringing all day today Mother, saying, “We saw that lady on the television last week. When is She speaking in Melbourne?”  Hundreds of them.

Shri Mataji: Really?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: There’s one little television program  it just keeps going. And it will be the same in Adelaide. Because they saw it there too.

Shri Mataji: Same?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Yes, they saw that program all around Australia – every capital city and a lot of smaller cities. There were telephone calls from Townsville, right up in the north of Australia. From Perth, from Adelaide, from Canberra. All these places saw You. And have you not had time to tell Mother the incredible story of the school….

Australian Sahaja Yogi 3: Mother, I have something. I go to a teacher’s college…

Shri Mataji: Yes?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 3: …to learn how to be a teacher. And one of the subjects we were doing yesterday was Psychology in Education. So, one man, who is a psychologist for twenty-five years – he is teaching us how to understand our students. And his remedy for relaxing is to take one bottle of alcohol at a time and drink. That’s what he is teaching us at school. (Yogi comments, “25 years of…)

Anyway, yesterday I had some of your posters to do at the school, to put up at the school. And I was sitting there for two hours. We were talking about what is intellect, how good the ego is, and how to enhance the ego. The ego must take you on.  So I was sort of going [Yogi gestures something] sleeping like this and there was one other girl in the class. A very simple girl from up the country and she said, “Excuse me, Mr Sullivan, is what you’re  talking about ego – is this sort of left side female past and right side male future action? And sort of Ego and, well Ego and Superego or somewhere up there?”  And I listened and it was Sahaj she was speaking, I thought, “Wow” And the psychologist said, “No, no, no that’s all wrong. That’s all wrong. Erm, from the left side, we learn how to write and from the right side, we learn how to read. That’s what you’re talking about.”  Finished.

So I went to her after and I said, “Do you want to know about the left side and the desire, the pure desire of God, and the pure action of God and how we can do this, and the balance and the centre channel?” She said, “Yes. Do you know about that?” I said, “Yes, I do. I have it here.”  And I showed her one of Your pictures. And she said, “That’s Her. That’s the Lady there. That’s the Lady.” And I said, “Where did you see Her?”  And she said, “On television.” [Another Yogi comments, “Remarkable!”] And she’s coming tonight. And tomorrow night.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: That must be… well we know there are millions of people watched that program.

Shri Mataji: Yes.  Charles told Me now, “So many have seen You Mother.  That’s the biggest thing – they have seen You, that’s the biggest thing. I was so happy with this idea, that they have seen You.” 

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: What a wonderful thing television will be, as you say, for Sahaja Yoga. When we can get time, we don’t have to fight our way in, because it’s so much easier. It spreads straight out.

Shri Mataji: Even loudspeaker you will be surprised is of such a help. You see, what had happened, I used to speak and Raolbai told Me that she sees vibrations, “going from this, Mother.” I said, “Really?”  She said, “Yes, they go into this.” “So then let’s try one thing.”  Then I started blowing into it. That works.

That means whenever I speak also it opens out. This television man got it afterwards but I don’t know if he is going to announce that or say that.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: He wants to see me when I go back to Sydney. He asked me out to lunch but I couldn’t go because I had to come here. But I know he wants to talk about it.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Maybe we could get him for Ayers Rock – for Uluru, for Ganesha Puja in ‘88. Line it up for then. It would be wonderful.

Shri Mataji: That is good. Already your group will be very big I think so.

But this I said on the television, this left and right? I must have said it.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 3: Yes, she said she heard it from You.

Shri Mataji: In that short time.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: So at least the audience watching at home was much better than the [UNCLEAR/interviewers].

Shri Mataji: They’re all loosely dressing up, all the time looking after the dress and grinning at the thing. You see, I was watching; they were very self-conscious.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 3: Oh yes

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: They knew the camera was on them.

Shri Mataji: Ah, that’s it. So, they were not for this program at all. None of them were seekers.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: It’s quite funny Mother, with… Even with a microphone, if you have somebody who talks a lot, they go, “la, la, la…” the whole time, and you put the microphone in front of them and they go, “Uhh…” and they can’t say a word.  Because suddenly…

Shri Mataji (to a Sahaja Yogi in Marathi): You should go out and walk around.

(To another Sahaja Yogi) You can take him around a little. Let him have a look. 

Indian Sahaja Yogi (in Marathi): After, I will rest for a while.

Shri Mataji (in Marathi): All right. Take a rest.

So?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: It is amazing how self-conscious they get the moment you put a microphone in front of somebody or put a camera there in front of them and bang! They can think of nothing else except, “Everybody’s looking at me!”

Shri Mataji: Really?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Yes, everything goes …

Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s something. Self-consciousness.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: We have a saying which is, you don’t need to worry about what other people are thinking about you. Because they are not thinking about you, they’re worrying about what other people are thinking about them. It’s the truth.

Shri Mataji: Ah, it is very true.

Rustom and these two have gone somewhere?

Sahaja Yogini (in Hindi): They are sleeping.

Shri Mataji: They are sleeping? Both of them? They never had their lunch or what?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: We had biscuits and cheese and tea and talk and… Then Rustom went for a walk and Rajesh Shah is asleep. The food was already… it was dished up and we had to take it back.

Shri Mataji: They are tired, I think. Yeah.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 3: And everybody else now is outside at the railway station giving out the handbills.

Shri Mataji: Handbills and all that, yes.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: It’s been very successful, the handbills, Mother.

Shri Mataji: Handbills and also posters are very successful.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Very good, the handbills

 Shri Mataji: But television is just for Me, nothing else. I mean, I can give realisation on television to people, if they give Me at chance and time. But the way they, you see, just put you on the seat and then you are out – jack in the box, they’ll just throw you out and then another person comes and sits. It’s just impossible.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Still it’s bringing a lot of people to Your programs. 

Shri Mataji: Also Sahaja Yoga is a very sensible thing itself. It works out. Like, as many as people you have, you see, it will get the people that you can balance also. It goes on balancing. And it doesn’t give you too much of a load also. If you have too much of a load, how will you manage them?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: That’s right. This is one of the things that I’ve always looked at with wonder – how, over the years here in Australia as we have grown, so we have got a few more. But we never had too many.

Shri Mataji: Too many, yes. You came to Melbourne only first time, did you?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Oh no, I was here before, the last time.

Shri Mataji: No, no, no but when you got your realisation, where did you get it?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Sydney.

Shri Mataji: You got it in Sydney. But in Melbourne, lots of people came here in ’82, I think.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: I think yes, they came down from… the original lot came from Sydney.

Shri Mataji: Oh, I see.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: And then they transferred.

Shri Mataji: Spread out, yes.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: That’s when I first met You, Shri MatajiMother.

Shri Mataji: You met Me here?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Yes. You came…that was my house that you came and stopped in, in Essendon – the very first visit. The very first visit, there’s a small wooden house there.

Shri Mataji: Of course, I remember him very well. Because he came to receive us and he took us down to his house, which was a small little house, I remember. We stayed there. Everything I remember very clearly, that part. But that time he was not listening about Sahaja Yoga so much. [All laugh]

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: I was pretty stupid then, Mataji.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: We tell some funny stories about that.

Shri Mataji: But I got round him. I could see that he’s a seeker but he’s lost his way. So I took a lot of interest in him. No, those who came first, always go wrong. Something goes wrong with them, you see. Horrible they are. One better than the other. I mean I don’t know how to address that.

Everywhere it has happened. Even a person like Gregoire has lost his head. See, I’m surprised how it happens. He was quite shocked but then he realised, he confessed it to Me, “Mother, it happens.”

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Brent and I were driving somewhere up North about three weeks ago, and we were adding up the number of original…

Shri Mataji: Sahaja Yogis.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: There weren’t many. We began to get worried.

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, it happens.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Makes us cautious Mother. It makes us very cautious: be careful.

Shri Mataji: The…In London also, I gave realisation to some few before – I mean, the first batches that were. Gradually, surprisingly they became quite funny, and they started an organisation called “The old Sahaja Yogis.”  I didn’t know that. Suddenly I found the behaviour rather funny. I said, “What is this going on?” They said, “We are old Sahaja Yogis.”  “Alright, better be seated now for your old age.” Because you see, all these are ideas. Some person who comes today might rise very fast. Somebody who might have come from long – you have seen it, what happened.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Some people stay still, a lot. 

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Quite a few, don’t they? You talk about them and they – you think, well, I’ve been here five years, six years whatever it is, and that person’s exactly the same as when I first met them– they haven’t changed one little bit.

Shri Mataji: That’s it. So what do you say to that? And even if you pass ten years you will be the same.

So what is most important is how far you grow, is the point. That growth is very important. And this leadership or anything, whatever it is, is not so important.  How far you grow. As soon as you grow, your light will grow.

And some people I have seen, have come to Sahaja Yoga very, very late. They have shot up like anything. And some people who have been there – I mean, there are two brothers and sisters, like Nirmala’s brother and herself. There is a contrast I should say. Contrast. If you see the brother you will be amazed.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: I know  Prabakh and he is very good, Mother.

Shri Mataji: He is tremendous. He is very deep.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: I think I detect another thing with looking back, I see, as the collective has got bigger, people develop quicker.

Shri Mataji: That’s very important – collective is very important. Collective is the nourishing garden.  (Yogi 2 comments: In the early days, people would come…) Helps a lot.

Now supposing you try this experiment. If there is a tree that is dying, you see. Now, you bring other trees next to it, it will grow. With a pot you see, little pot you can have where the flowers are dying. Bring it near the other pots which are healthy, it will grow.

Normally it happens like this – that if you have one bad apple, all the good apples will be spoilt. All their goodness cannot put that right, you see. That’s it. But with the growth, it happens.

If something is living and growing. If somebody is dead, then, of course, the decaying is much faster. But if somebody is living and growing, with the more healthier people it grows faster.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: And isn’t it interesting Mother, how when somebody in the collective gets sick, the first thing they want to do is to move out.

Shri Mataji: It is true?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: It is true, yes absolutely. 

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: It is almost as though they want to commit suicide and just about want to destroy themselves.

Shri Mataji: Who?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Almost as if they want to destroy themselves.

Shri Mataji: Yes.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: By moving out. Moving away. 

Shri Mataji: That’s a typical example.

So many experiments you will be doing, more and more and more, and you will be amazed at the results. Very much. Sahaja Yoga is such an enterprise I should say. Every day you discover something new, every day you find out something new, that you can manage. Like the flowers. The miracle of the flowers.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Michael’s breadboard, Mother.

Shri Mataji: Huh?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: That piece of wood that you pushed the flowers down was his breadboard, Mother that he cuts the bread on.

Shri Mataji: Oh, I see!

Australian Sahaja Yogi: He’s never going to use it again.

Australian Sahaja Yogi (Michael): I have put it away in my bedroom, Mother.

Shri Mataji: We couldn’t find anything to do that. You see, I said they must be little bit dipped in the water. Because I had vibrated the water. This was very cold water so I said, “Alright, let’s make it little warm or hot.” They said, “The flowers will die.” I said, “No, My hand is there. That will cool it down.” And all the flowers survived, all of them. And they came up so well and they grew in size.

Australian Sahaja Yogi (Michael): Yes, they did. And Mother, was it the heat from the body that killed the flowers or…?

Shri Mataji: Heat from the body.

Australian Sahaja Yogi (Michael): Why did the flowers start to die?

Shri Mataji: Because of the heat from your bodies. You see, there was too much heat you were passing in the body. While I put them in the water and I vibrated the water, you see with My hand. So you see, I may be perspiring Myself but I emit cool breeze. Ask him, he saw that.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Oh yes, We went shopping, and Mother was perspiring because it was very hot in the shop and I was helping Mother down the stairs. And all of a sudden, this “whoosh” came over. I said “Mother, it can’t be!”

Shri Mataji: And his wife too. “See, Mother such cool breeze you are giving us.”

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: It just swept over us while we were visiting the shop.  Amazing.

Shri Mataji: So I was cooling all of you and taking the heat within Myself. It is like an air conditioner you see.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Yes.

Shri Mataji: That gets heated up and makes everything cool.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Just like the back of fridge is very hot.

Shri Mataji: Fridge is very hot. If you see the back of it, yes that’s hot, that’s what it is. Even sometimes My tongue emits so much of heat I feel, outside – the heat is going out in the night time. But if you put your finger around My nose in the night, it is a very cool breeze coming.

I wish Christ had told more about Holy Ghost – He had time to talk about it.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Do you think, Mother that we have been told all that Christ talked about or that it’s been a little bit lost?

Shri Mataji: Lot of it must have been lost because I am sure He must have told about Kundalini and all that. But you see the disciples were not realised until He lived, as you know that. And they were a very uncertain quantity. They were very frightened because He was crucified, and they couldn’t say that a man who was God has been crucified by human beings, you see. How to prove that He was God is that.

Matthew was very much frightened of saying something about Immaculate Conception. There was a big fight between him and Paul because he outlasted Christ. And he wouldn’t say that – Paul would not say. In his books, he has not mentioned a word about all this.

But Matthews was forced by other disciples that we must write whatever we have seen. So the whole thing became here like a, little …we should say, a loose organisation between them, and they wrote whatever they felt like in the Bible, but not what – John was enthusiastic and young fellow. So he wrote lots of things in that – as a dream or anything, or whatever it is – but he wrote many things, which is quite good. But still, a lot of it’s missing because Christ could not have missed those points; I am sure of it.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: Most of them just couldn’t write, could they? Only Luke and Matthew would have been probably the only two who could write; I don’t know whether John could write.

Shri Mataji: John could write also.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: True.

Shri Mataji: But Matthew used to write really well. They were all fishermen. Ordinary people of ordinary intelligence. How far can you talk to them about Kundalini also? But I am sure Christ must have told them that there’s  a force within you. That he must have told them [UNCLEAR in this period]. And that is why when the cool breeze came to them, you see, they felt that it is the Holy Ghost. Otherwise, they could not have related it to that. They must have known. Very haphazard, the whole thing was.

Also, like Christ made the wine. Now wine was in those days not taken like the way we take it; it was called as ‘strong drinks’ and its [UNCLEAR] was prohibited: actually prohibited. If you read Moses, He has prohibited strong drinks clearly. But that was not Christ’s realm to talk about. But still, He never made, you see wine – which we call as wine nowadays – alcoholic, because alcohol cannot be made in one minute, you see. That’s the point one should see. (Yogi comments: That’s true, eh?)

You see, it was…He made wine means He made the juice. Tastes like wine.  The other day this Romano fellow – I asked him, “You first take something,” because they all drink. So, he is the fan of the Italian people, you know, the one who did Me. So he said, “You first give me realisation.”  So I put My hand in the thing and I said, “Now you drink this water.”  He said, “This is water?” He asked the girl. “Yeah.” “You brought water?” “Yes, I brought water.” He said, “No, this tastes like wine.” I said, “Go ahead, drink.” Then he drank.

And then also many things happened with him because he arranged a program, a big program in Italy in a place where they have a very expensive holiday camping place. They call it the Santa Pietra. Pietra is the stone, you see where there is a saint that is a stone; means must be some sort of a swayambhu there. So we went there, to that – Marina Santa Pietra is the place. And there he had a big program in a big palace which had a very big open-air theatre and all that. There he had the program. But he told Me, “I’m sorry but everybody has told me you can’t have the program, it’s going to rain cats and dogs. It’s going to have a very bad… also maybe snowfall or maybe something like that.” I told him, “No, not possible. There will be no rain at all, believe Me.”

So we had Alganesh and Alganesh said, “If Mother says so, we believe it.”  He said, “My faith is not that strong as yours.”  I said, “Alright, but just try it once.”  So Gregoire and all these people had come from outside that area. They said, “Till we came inside the city, it was raining, there was hailstorm, all things happening, we thought we won’t be able to reach. That is now clear cut.”  Then they came, and we had in the evening the program. It was absolutely clear sky: absolutely clear sky. And about six miles away from there, it was raining, there was hailstorm all around. And the program went off very well. So, in the beginning, only he said that, “The first miracle is this; that She had told me there will not be any  rain, and everybody I telephoned they said, “There’s going to be rain – take a bet on that.”  A very nice man and it was very interesting in the way the whole program came up, so everybody got realisation.

In Italy now it is quite established. Especially in Milano areas, it is very much established. Italians are not so fond of Pope; they have had enough of him. He has got six thousand schools all over Italy. And very highly paid schools. Very highly paid. And nobody gets admissions there easily. It is a very big money racket. All those things they know. And they were saying that every day there are six to seven thousand visitors, and every visitor has to pay so much money when he goes around – just for visiting the Vatican. All that he is earning every day. Such are his earnings – everything – and I have seen he has really, tremendous amount of treasury: tremendous amount. Even more than Tsars, and he doesn’t want to sell it.

And while Italians were saying, “We are so poor,” that time. And also you see, all the Catholics are very poor. Now, Italian things have improved. They asked Me for one thing – this mafia is to be completely finished. That thing has happened now in Italy. Also that their poverty should go. Now they have become very rich people.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: I had an aunt, Mother who lived just north of Milan – in Como, on the lake.

Shri Mataji: Really? We had a program there, in Como. (Yogi 1 comments: It’s a beautiful place) And such a big, huge hall – bigger than yours, all filled with people. And one priest came and he started saying, “Thank Mother for She has given us our light, She has given us our Self-realisation.” I was amazed. (Yogi asks: A priest?)  Priest.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: That is extraordinary.

Shri Mataji: Because he is a priest, Sahaja Yogis don’t allow him to come. They said, “You better change your dress, otherwise, we won’t allow you to come.” I did not say anything about it. There you can do it because Sahaja Yoga is very much established.

So who is this psychologist who was teaching there? What sort of a school?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 3: It’s the teachers college Mother, for technical teachers. So I teach cooking, you know for the trade – for the technical trade – and we have plumbers, hairdressers, pastry makers, cooks, electricians, and all we who teach have to then go to school two days a week to learn how to teach further. So these are very big teachers that teach the teachers.

Shri Mataji: But how… he is teaching psychology to you people also?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 3: Yes he is, yes. Psychology in education. It is supposed to let me know what happens inside the students’ heads. 

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: He shouldn’t be doing the teaching.

Shri Mataji: But I mean, you are feeding the stomach and the tongue – it never goes to the head, does it? I think any cooking done with love turns out to be good food.  Yeah.  And every country has its own style because it suits them that way, you see. Whatever suits that country, they have to take it. So now it’s done? Alright?

May God Bless You.

There is something I wanted to tell you both. It is a little personal. You see, our great Mr David has married an Australian girl, and like all other Englishmen, he doesn’t talk. So she says he doesn’t communicate. So I told that, “Englishmen don’t talk much, you see. They allow others to talk. They listen more than talk themselves. So you don’t get upset – you go on talking to him, he will listen to you, and he’ll say few words to you in any case.” 

So I am just to going to warn you people, you are marrying outside. Especially in America, they talk a lot, you see. So just don’t keep quiet. You have to talk. If they say something you better talk. And you have to start talking sometimes also. Because David really shocked Me. He said, “Really? I communicate all right, Mother.”  He was quite surprised. I said, “He is a quiet fellow. That’s all, he’s a little quiet.” That’s the way they are; the English don’t talk much.

English Sahaja Yogi: I think it’s more that if you think the things… you think you’ve said them without actually saying, without actually communicating. But mentally, you feel you’re communicating, because  I used to find that with people thought that… I used to think that was quite… that I spoke a lot, but actually it was just going on in my own head and it wasn’t actually, wasn’t actually really communication, it was just in my own mind.

Shri Mataji: Ah. In your own head, you were talking. Must be.  You better tell David. You know, because poor David, he didn’t know what was wrong with him. He’s a quiet fellow. He lived in My house for a year or so. Quiet. You see, tell him something, he’ll do that.

[Break in recording. Resumes when Shri Mataji is speaking on another subject].

Shri Mataji: … with Gorbachev and your America. I mean she is a small country, now come down to your level and don’t tell people that, “We are British, British, British.” And all the money is drained off, you see. It’s so much trouble to these people, you know. Young people are really become poor there. No jobs, nothing. All the money is going to missiles. What are you going to do with these few missiles?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: Hopefully nothing

Shri Mataji: It’s terrible, terrible the way things are happening there. You see, I feel sometimes that this lady has no heart. [Shri Mataji is speaking about Margaret Thatcher, the British Prime Minister at that time] Like a mother to think about her children. So many young people are unemployed. She is not bothered about unemployment. How these things come in? Because of unemployment: drugs or anything. They have nothing to do poor things, what can they do? What is their future? She is not bothered.

And now what she’s done? What she has done, you see, is open the market. This whole thing is open now. Anybody can go and this bull and this stuff has started there. Is all open; anybody can do what they like. So the pound has gone up. Anybody can go and join the stock exchange. So, yesterday the thing has gone up. The pound is up, alright.  But what’s the use?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: The pound has gone up but it’s no good to you if you haven’t got any.

Shri Mataji: It is artificially. It is not really. Because she has allowed people to take out loans, as much as they want. Then another thing she has done – a very dangerous thing – that whatever is the income out of the factories, she wants to distribute them as bonuses to all the shareholders. So the factories will become tomorrow very weak also. All money, all earnings are going to the people. Just to have cheap popularity.

Once all the money is wasted and frittered away like this, what will happen? Even if they have more money, what will they do? They will just drink. People are just buying things because they are getting loans and loans. Everybody is getting a loan there. They are very anxious to give loans. And because of that, the pound has gone up.

It is a very artificial way. The same thing was done with Reagan. Also, I must say that, in their country they gave a lot of loans to other countries and that’s how they kept up themselves. But now where are they? They cannot raise their dollar whatever they may try. I mean, that’s not… that’s a capitalist country now, as far as that thing is concerned. They are capitalists who are ruling.

 And this is not capitalism. This is not conservatism. They are not conserving at all.

And this country is another mess I see. The labour laws are so high up. I remember a long time back, my husband used to say that, “The worst is the labour of Australia.” I said, “Why?” “You see, now they are asking wages for bending. So now the wages in the whole of our shipping will go up and we will have problems,” and this and that. So now they raised the wages of the labour. Alright. So now what’s happening? Because the labour is so expensive, you cannot produce anything. Because you cannot produce anything so you get everything from abroad.

People are just having here doles: no wages, nothing, not working and spending more for the things they are getting from abroad. Everything is imported in this country. Everything. I was shocked. Everything is imported in this country. It’s going to be like Canada which is depending on America.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: The same thing is even happening in the television industry, Mother. One of our problems here in Melbourne, trying to put television on – particularly television to take much interest in Your visit – is they say, “Oh well, all our programs come from Sydney”. So everything’s being imported…

Shri Mataji: They are what?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: They all come from Sydney. All the programs are in Sydney and they send them down the line to Melbourne. It’s the same sort of thing is happening within Australia. Everything is getting smaller and smaller.

Shri Mataji: Not localised.

Australian Sahaja Yogi 1: No.

Shri Mataji: But one thing is there. You may not have localised, ah, this thing. But supposing tomorrow you start getting everything from England, then what will happen? Everybody will have doles sitting at home seeing the English programs. And then it might only be from India you might be getting. After sometime and importing even that.

[Sahaja Yogini, giving tea to Shri Mataji: No sugar?]

Shri Mataji: See, we must not keep our children without any work. That’s a very dangerous thing. That’s a very dangerous thing to do. Oh, I have to take that, I am sorry.

(In Hindi to someone): Please get that to eat, what was brought here just now. Yes, bran, bran.

I will have to, according  to treatment of Mister…I’ll  just take a second to have this. Let Me have that. This is Mister… yes, I will take that. Yes, what is it?

Australian Sahaja Yogi 2: I wasn’t going to mention it before the program Shri Mataji, but there is some negative ex-Sahaja Yogis in Adelaide…