TRANSCRIPT OF CONVERSATION AT KEW ASHRAM MELBOURNE, 1987-0512
Shri Mataji: Really?
Sahaja Yogi: [UNCLEAR/Yes].
Shri Mataji: The whole mind is conditioned.
Sahaja Yogi: I mean, absolutely. It is like a record. Like a gramophone record going on.
Shri Mataji: Yes. I have seen this in China when Mao was there. See, the girl used to tell us anything like a record. Just she was saying it, without even thinking about it. See then I felt that this is some sort a possession this girl has got.
But now, of course, Chinese have got their freedom. They are much better now. But in the beginning, they did that like that in China. This is how they conditioned them. But all our theological colleges, all these people, they are the same. They are just trying to find out how to condition people.
I mean, if they give up all their business, they take to God, they will be so very much happier. And all this effort will be lost. Very serious thing, I think, for the Christian community especially. It is that because of these barriers, they may never reach God. It is all right for Christians in the West because they have seen the nonsense of it, most of them.
But in countries like ours which are developing. For them Christianity is so sophisticated, so good, you see to them, Christians mean something great. My husband was telling Me, his own uncle wanted to become a Christian because he found that the Hindu religion was so absurd. And the priests were so absurd. So he was so enamoured by Christians. I tell you.
Sahaja Yogi: So our main problem is Christians. We do not have any other barriers here. We have quite a few Muslims. They can be a bit fanatical too.
Shri Mataji: And the conversion you see. Conversion is another problem. Conversion in India is more in the places where there are jungles and things where the people are absolutely away from society. So for them, money is very important.
And then these people, the way they take the missionaries and their [UNCLEAR] food and this and that. So they are converted. Donkeys after donkeys. I mean they have created problems for us in a way. I mean these people who are living in Khasia, Jaintia places you see. A formal Nagaland sort of a thing. And this Nagaland business is all a Christian problem.
They have all become Christians you see. Do not understand anything. At the time of Christ, I do not know if He ever went to this; such primitive people. But Christianity has gone to them. They don’t understand anything – a to z.
Now they came to Lal Bahadur Shastri, out Prime Minister. They said, “We must have our sovereignty”. That is what they said. They had written it down in their language, “sovereignty”.
So Shastriji asked, “What is sovereignty?”.
“That we don’t know. We want our sovereignty”.
“This, what is sovereignty you want?”.
He said, “This is what we have. We know one thing”.
“But what is it?”.
“That we don’t know”.
“But why do you want?”.
“That we don’t know. But we want our sovereignty”.
To the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister said, “Oh God. These Christians”. And they were wearing suits and hats, funny hats and suits and all Western dresses, you see. And they are all Christians in Nagaland. And all stupid. This is what they had got it, on a paper. “We want our sovereignty”. Finished.
Sahaja Yogi: He could have given them anything.
Shri Mataji: I was thinking, he should have given them some sort of odd paper saying “This is sovereignty. Take it back”. They would have taken it.
Such things they have taught. And this Nagaland created a problem. It is a problem for India now.
Sahaja Yogi: The missionaries created?
Shri Mataji (in Marathi): Yes, the missionaries. They wrote it down in their language, “You go and meet Shastriji and when you go there tell him, we want our sovereignty”.
So Shastriji was non-plussed. He said, “Then what next?”. And in English, you see, “We want our sovereignty”.
“Why do you want it, sir?”.
“That we do not know. We want our sovereignty”.
I tell you. When Shashtriji told us, I did not know where to look.
He said, “This is too much. Just written down in English, this sentence, and they were telling me all the time”. Would not say what is sovereignty, why sovereignty nothing.
Now missionaries then educated them. Now the idea of missionaries – because the Church is always confused with the ruling people, like the kings and queens and also politics. So now they are confused with that. So they want to create a Christian land. As it is, we have one Hindu land, one Muslim land. Then we have one Sikh land. Then we will have one Christian land. And we have one Bagla land.
So I don’t know how many parts of that country there are going to be. And nobody follows it. That is the best part of it. And if you see, our Prime Minister went to Nagaland the other day. They made him wear a hat. And he was dancing. You wear a hat like many Christians. You see, many Christians in India believe that Christ was born in England.
Sahaja Yogi: That he was an Englishman?
Shri Mataji: Yes. He Himself was a Christian and was born in England. This they believe, actually they believe in it. See there is a story, an interesting story of a villager who used to come to Allahabad from his village. And he became a Christian. And he would always go the river Ganges, have a bath and go back. So the priest told them, “That you cannot do now. Your religion has changed. Now you have become a Christian. You can’t go to the river”.
River Ganges, the Christians do not go to in India, do you know? They don’t go to the river Ganges. So he said in his own language, “Sir, I have become a ‘sahib’, means I have become an Englishman. But I cannot give up my religion”. He thought he had become a sahib.
And the names are also, they will change it like this. You see, this gentleman’s name was Blondie. So “bhura” (blond) means “bura” (evil). So he said, “Give me a good name, like Alexander’s name”. They called him Alexander Bhura. So he thought he had become a sahib you see. An Englishman. “And now they are asking me to give up my religion, is too much. I can’t give up my religion. I will go to Gangaji”.
Sahaja Yogi: It is very sad what the missionaries do there. I know that in Hawaii and Maori, they destroyed what used to be an enlightened religion. Which would have allowed, for instance, Sahaja Yoga – they would have understood it instantly. And the Christians just chopped it off. In one generation.
The things that Cortez did in Central America; terrible.
Shri Mataji: Horrible.
Sahaja Yogi: Every book that was ever written, every knowledge that the Aztec had was destroyed.
Shri Mataji: I mean, there is a history behind the whole thing. Thank God Columbus missed his point, went to America. Otherwise, there would be no Sahaja Yoga here. There would be Americans roaming about in India, I think. With their AIDS. Or with the kind of trouble that they have. That would have been kind of a thing.
I think Hanumana must have done that job, to take Columbus away. Because I cannot understand. This fellow, such a clever man, went all the way from England – Columbus was from Portugal, was he? From Portugal, he went to a place – Spanish, he was Spanish. He should have gone to India, I don’t know how he went, how he reached America, you see. So must be Hanumana’s trick.
Sahaja Yogi: That’s a long voyage.
Shri Mataji: That’s a (laughs). But they killed all the people.
Sahaja Yogi: He called that continent India.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Sahaja Yogi: That’s why the people were called Red Indians.
Shri Mataji: Yes. Red Indians. But the poor Red Indians were killed and massacred completely. I mean the white people wherever they went, massacred – all kinds. You see, the French.
The Portuguese, now the Portuguese look so horrid. But when they came to India, to Bombay, you must have seen that Trimutri and all that. Did you go to see that Trimurti? That is such a rock, black rock. And to have hewn into it with this beauty must have been really remarkable.
But these people thought this rock cannot be broken with anything. So they took cannons from the ship and blasted it. That is such a strong rock that even now if you have to nail them, you cannot put a drill on that. So, such a strong rock. And they made such beautiful designs on it. And they blasted it. They were so much against all these things. The Portuguese. So many temples, beautiful temples they demolished. And the English also, the terrible English killed so many people in Calcutta. In a hole, they put them in a hole. Known as “Hole of Calcutta”. And so many people were killed.
Sahaja Yogi: Black hole.
Shri Mataji: Black hole of Calcutta. In Dhaka…
Sahaja Yogi: Jalianwala Baug.
Shri Mataji: Jaianwala Baug, another thing. Just killed people just like that.
Sahaja Yogi: In 1942.
Shri Mataji: 1942, I was there. They troubled Me and tortured Me. They put Me on ice, gave Me electric shocks – they know, all of them.
Horrible. They think they have a right to possess somebody. This is plundering. Go to somebody’s country, take away everything, plunder that person and become the king. Pirates, I tell you.
Sahaja Yogi: [UNCLEAR] for a long time.
Shri Mataji: Terrible thing they have done. But killing people – I tell you, in Dhaka, there were people who used to make beautiful “malmal’ (fine muslin). A kind of very thin cloth.
Sahaja Yogi: Very beautiful.
Shri Mataji: Very beautiful. So thin, they used to develop the nails. And there was a little hole they used to make. And out of that, they used to take out. It was a wonderful thing that one dhoti could be put into the small shell of a …
Sahaja Yogi: Walnut.
Shri Mataji: Walnut. The whole dhoti could be put inside a walnut. And they killed them. All of them, they cut their thumbs, they cut their thumbs. So jealous.
Sahaja Yogi: Because the mills of Manchester were not perfect.
Shri Mataji: I mean, you cannot compete with Manchester, but just an idea. It is not that, the English, all of them. The French wherever they went, horrible. French have ruined so many people. Now, this Sierra Leonne where these people went. Actually, there are Australians working but there are people there who are French, I think. The people who are ruling the place. They are so cruel to these people that they have taken to Sahaja Yoga now. They are extremely cruel.
[UNCLEAR/ comment by Sahaja Yogi].
Shri Mataji: Portuguese were such cruel people I tell you. Now they have become very poor. But all this white skin had that idea of aggressing others, plundering others. And sort of ruling others.
Spanish. Spaniards also. The whole of the Americas is covered by the Spaniards. I mean, they did not kill us so much, the English – the way they were killed by these Spaniards for no reason at all.
I went to Rio de Janeiro. And I wanted to see one aboriginal. One person was [UNCLEAR] there. They said, “We don’t have. You can go to the museum and see”. But not one single person left by the Spaniard people. Now did you see the condition of the Spanish, where are they?
Sahaja Yogi: In Brazil, there is still – sounds awful to say, but there are still hunting packages. Where you can pay to go on a hunting package to kill them.
Another Sahaja Yogi: Shoot an Indian?
Sahaja Yogi: And the reason is money again. Because they want to get them out of the forests so that they can go in and take the land. So they have safaris. And you know who, the nation that goes the most? The Germans.
Shri Mataji: Oh! Germans are very cunning. Now they are all settled down there. This, Argentina. That was the only time I was happy that Argentina was defeated. Because all the Germans are there. They are teaching them all these things. They are the ones who started the war.
When I went to Argentina, gone for a navy parade – and I was surprised they were having those steps, the goose steps; they call them that. I said, I told My husband, “How are they having goose steps, these Argentinians?”. He was also surprised you see because these only Germans do. So when we asked them, they were shocked. “We have some German teachers”.
But all those who have run away in the wartime are settled in Argentina now. And they had big arrangements to destroy the whole world. And this is one point where the British have done something very sensible. Maybe I was in England that – great, they have finished those Germans. Though it has caused them a lot of problems, no doubt. But that was a very sensible thing to do. Because so many Germans have ruined – already they are building all kinds of things there.
[UNCLEAR/comment by a Sahaja Yogi].
Shri Mataji: But then the war between themselves. Look at that. Then the Germans start fighting them. Germans did not go out. You see, that is what the thing is. Germans did not fight the people outside Europe or outside their territories. What they wanted to do was to fight with the English, the Russians, all those people who were Europeans – there. The Polish. So they start fighting among themselves.
So you see, violence is such – you start doing violence to anyone, it comes back to you. And amongst yourselves, you start fighting. And even now, Germans you cannot say. They are like sleeping tigers. I went to Germany Myself. West Germany is all right, but East Germany is like a, you feel like there are a dead, cemeteries everywhere. But also through them, you feel there is big violence building up even now. Very hot-tempered, violent people. You feel as if you have come in some hothouse. Only once I went and I told C.P. I am not going to come back again to this country. East Germany. Horrible.
(in Marathi): Even now the people are so hot-tempered.
I tell you Russians what they are doing – thank God. If you allow them to come up, they can destroy the whole world.
Sahaja Yogi: Hitler could be born only in Germany. No other place.
Shri Mataji: Really?
Sahaja Yogi: There are many who worship Hitler even now.
Shri Mataji: Many. In East Germany, everyone. They just say it was a political mistake.
Sahaja Yogi: That he attacked Russia.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Another Sahaja Yogi: [UNCLEAR/Napolean reborn?].
Shri Mataji: That’s what is the play. Krishna Leela is there. But the Germans – they are the cruellest, I think.
Sahaja Yogi: No, the cruellest are the Japanese.
Shri Mataji: You can’t say because what I heard about them in Warsaw. Warsaw. They are so mean and so low-level. They took out the fats of the people and used them for soap making.
Sahaja Yogi: That was during Hitler’s time.
Shri Mataji: Hitler’s time I am saying. Warsaw.
Sahaja Yogi: They made lampshades out of the skin. They used the skin.
Shri Mataji: Jews are no less now. They have picked up everything from the Germans. And the way they are torturing the Palestinians now. Oh God, that is also terrible.
Sahaja Yogi: They are taking the vengeance. They were tortured at the hands of Hitler. Now they are taking revenge from the Lebanese.
Shri Mataji: I don’t know if it is revenge or they picked up all those things from the war. They became experts and now they thought we must practise on the Palestinians all those wretched things. [UNCLEAR/What] they have gone through.
Another Sahaja Yogi: That is a lot of subtle things that have come out. Even though I know I shouldn’t, every time I see the Swastika…
Shri Mataji: You get a fright. You see, that is the lucky point. You see, what happened in Swastika, Swastika is two ways. One way is for construction, another is for destruction. Another science. What happened – the trick of the trade was like this; they were using stencils to make the Swastika. And then one side they used and when they started using the other side, it came out the other way.
Sahaja Yogi: The wrong way.
Shri Mataji: It is Swastika that defeated them.
(in Marathi): Swastika has two emblems. One is constructive, the other is destructive. If it is like this then it is constructive, the opposite way is destructive. They were using stencils. When it got damaged on one side, they started using the other side. When I saw them upside down, I said, “Now finished. Now they are all right”. Hitler himself started wearing upside-down thing.
And as he says, Japanese – another. Another thing. As I was telling him, in Japan, the mother is not respected. The mother is just a dishwasher. And the other women are geishas or dishwashers, er – what you call them, career girls. And the wives are just dishwashers. So the mother is always ill-treated. She is given food outside. She does not eat with the family. Treated just like a servant. She has to remove the shoes of her husband, she has to do everything – I mean, just like a maidservant does in the house.
So the children who see their mother being treated like that develop that thing within themselves, that anger. That is why they are very angry people. And the good-looking women and career women never marry. They never marry. And they never have children.
Sahaja Yogi: Because of this treatment?
Shri Mataji: If there is a very rich man, then he has to pay a lot of money to marry a very beautiful woman. Then he marries her. But he goes to geisha houses. They will never take you to their houses, their homes. If you see their women, their hands like washerwomen, you see, very rough and thick. They sleep on the ground separately, treated just like servants.
And they didn’t open their gates to any other country for ages. They lived with all that nonsense. But the Chinese are different. The Chinese are like us. Their whole system is like us, their style is like us, their whole morality is like us and also, they are very wise people. Very wise.
See we have had another problem that way – see, our Prime Ministers have been all Western-oriented. Educated in Western countries. Except for Shastriji. You see Balsar, this is the difference. They never understood the value of our country. More impressed by Western people. Westernised people. Even this one. He likes people who can speak good English. Even Rajiv Gandhi.
Sahaja Yogi: If they are Italians he likes them more. His wife is Italian.
Shri Mataji: I don’t know if he cares for that or not, but he has very much an inclination towards a Westernised life. Not that kind, but still. That is one of the reasons, you see. They are not children of the soil. Except for Lal Bahadur Shastri. If he had lived, we would have been a different country you see. All dishonesty had vanished from India, all corruption had vanished. He was a very honest man. Wonderful things were happening.
Sahaja Yogi: Corruption has come in. Honesty has vanished and corruption has come in. It has been impacted.
Another Sahaja Yogi: But dishonesty is the one that lets corruption in, isn’t it. I mean you don’t expect people to be other than honest.
Sahaja Yogi: That is right.
Another Sahaja Yogi: You open the door and in they come.
Shri Mataji: It is kind of a habit [UNCLEAR]. Get into the habit of getting money this way, that way – then you start doing it all the time. I think that must be the reason. Because I have known people who were very good. Suddenly they start doing that – grabbing this, grabbing that, grabbing that; there is no limit to things. There should be certain maryadas for everything.
Sahaja Yogi: [UNCLEAR] in Western societies, maryadas is a thing that doesn’t exist.
Shri Mataji: Doesn’t exist in anything. In anything.
Sahaja Yogi: It did.
Shri Mataji: It did. It did have. They were reaching up to a point. But before they could reach the Absolute, they just got into this problem. Of materialism.
How can you be a free person if you don’t respect the freedom of another person? Maryada means that. To respect the freedom of another person is maryadas. And that maryadas one must have. Because of that, you do not respect the freedom of another person. You are aggressing each other all the time. Whenever he has the chance, he will aggress you or you will aggress him, you see. So it will go on like that.
But if you respect the freedom of another person – this is your freedom, this is my freedom. Then a maryada is put in there.
Sahaja Yogi: I suppose maryada means as Christ said, “Do unto others…”
Shri Mataji: As you want to be done unto yourself.
Sahaja Yogi: Don’t hate.
Shri Mataji: But you see, they say why? Why shouldn’t we do that? In England or in America or any of these place you go to – you tell them. “But why?”. Christ has said it. “Who is Christ?”. In America, they say. In England, they may not say so. In America, they say. “Who is Christ? Why should we listen to him? Who is to tell us?”.
Abraham Lincoln is nothing for them. You know there is only little Lincoln Road somewhere far away. They don’t regard him as anything great. So what to do?
Sahaja Yogi: They have a story about that also. An American and a Russian were talking. The American said, “We have such freedom in America, that I can stand before the White House, the President’s house and say that the President is a fool”. The Russian said, “I also can do that”. “Is that so?”. “Yes, I can stand before your President’s house and say that he is a fool”.
Shri Mataji: But what I was telling him – in Russia, restricted life is given to them. But no maryadas. They have no maryadas, only restricted life. Now they are starting some sort of a curtailing on drinking, say. Now that will go on. But it is just by force. Maryadas are your own, ingrained, you see. It is your culture. So once they get out of that place then they drink like hell. Not that they accepted from within, those things. That they are accepting these virtues as part and parcel of their being. It is just a force on them. So they are doing it.
But that day when they are doing it, then they are Sahaja. Sahaja, in a Sahaja way. Maryadas come to you in a Sahaja way.
Sahaja Yogi: Looks like tabla. Tabla.
Shri Mataji: Tabla. It has to have a rhythm. It cannot go on flowing with it. You cannot just start it and then go into any rhythm or anything. You have to keep to that maryada. In everything in life, there has to be a maryada. Otherwise, you would know where you stand. I mean, the sea also has a maryada. The ocean also has such a maryada that suppose you try to press the sea on one side, of the harbour, it will come out in some other part. It starts showing in some other part.
Sahaja Yogi: But not beyond that.
Shri Mataji: Not beyond. Supposing you try to raise the (land) – in Bombay they have done it you see. They have raised Bombay in these areas like Marine Drive and all that. It has shown in other places. In Versova, the sea has entered the land. It keeps to its maryadas.
And it is such an uncertain society if you don’t have maryadas. You don’t know how you stand with another person. You cannot find out your relationships with each other you see. You cannot understand how far you can go with that person. It is very funny stuff. Not to have maryada.
Sahaja Yogi: One of the problems with Western societies is that we have been taught to believe you can’t have maryadas. Because if you want to get on with the world in a business sense, you have to find some way of doing something better than someone else. Which means you trade on them to get higher up on the ladder.
Shri Mataji: But that can be done with maryadas also. You see, doing better than others means what? Must have maryadas. Supposing there are two persons who are doing business. One person tries to outwit another person by false means or sort of, all kinds of other things. Like luring him to something funny – like taking him to women, then do this and do that – all sorts of wrong things he takes to. How far will he go? But a person who goes in his maryadas can transcend everyone else. Because he has kept his personality intact. He has not wasted it or frittered away or made it cheap.
And the idea of doing better is also money-oriented. But doing better in a general way is different. Like I will tell you. Lal Bahadur Shastri was a man; when there was an accident, a railway accident in the South – he resigned. Means he was the Minister of Railways. He had nothing to do with that railway in particular – anything. But he resigned. Just like that. “When I am the Railway Minister and there is an accident, I should not be the minister”. Just resigned.
And everybody remembers it and tells about it, “See now what he has done”. He had maryadas. And there are many other railway ministers who have made money, did all this, everything. People don’t want to take their names in the morning time. “Oh God, no, don’t take their names in the morning”.
Sahaja Yogi: There are not many politicians who would do that. They have fifty-four reasons as to why it is someone else’s fault.
Shri Mataji: Like Shivaji’s case, I will tell you. Shivaji was a man of great maryadas. Shivaji’s people once looted the treasures of a big “subedar” (like a lord) – Kalyan subedar. And his daughter-in-law. She was going and with her, all the treasures were going. Very beautiful woman. They brought her. And she came with a covering on her face you see.
Sahaja Yogi: Veil.
Shri Mataji: Veil. And she was presented to Shivaji. So Shivaji asked her, “You open your veil”. And she opened her veil. So, he saluted her and he said, “See now. If my mother was as beautiful as you are, then I would have been even more beautiful than you”. What a beautiful thing to say. You see, sisterly relationship. “See now. If my mother was as beautiful as you are, then I would have been even more beautiful than you”. And he shouted at all his subedars and all. “Don’t do such things. No insults to women”. And he sent her back with all the things she was carrying. Plus his own army with her, to be left up to her own place from where she had come.
Man of such maryadas you see. He never felt anything attractive or anything about her. He just felt, “A sweet sister of mine, just a beautiful sister. If my mother was as beautiful as she is, I would have been as beautiful as her”. Just a sisterly feeling comes to a man of maryadas. And he was forced to marry four times by his mother because they had to do some sort of a pact with other people.
So he to marry four times. Imagine. He had to marry four times because his mother asked him to, but in maryadas. But when he saw such a beautiful woman, he just told her. Always he spent his life in the company of saints. Always. Such maryadas you see.
In a saint also, there are maryadas. Like a saint, like Tukarama. Like he went and saw him, and he saw his condition. Tukarama was very in a very poor condition. So he brought a lot of ornaments and everything and gave it to his wife and lots of food and all that in the house. So Tukarama came back and he told his wife. And Shivaji was hearing what Tukarama had to say.
He said, “See, this meant for queens and kings and not for us. We are poor farmers. And it does not behove for a farmer to wear all these expensive things. So you better return all these things to Shivaba.” Shivba, they used to called him Shivba.”But whatever is suitable for your status, you wear that. That will look nice on you, this you better give ”. And he was surprised. But Shivaji was there. He came and fell at his feet.
Sahaja Yogi: Please Shri Mataji, I think dinner would be ready.
Shri Mataji: What time do you have to go?
Sahaja Yogi: Its about ten minutes drive Mother, just down the street.
Shri Mataji: And what time is the program?
Sahaja Yogi: Program is at seven-thirty.
Shri Mataji: Seven-thirty.
Sahaja Yogi: And we would be there from seven o clock.
Shri Mataji: So if you think proper, I will come back and have dinner, because I am really not at all hungry. All right? I will have some tea, that is all.
Sahaja Yogi: There is a note from, you know a K.C. Meddapa?
Shri Mataji: Who?
Sahaja Yogi: From India. K.C. Medappa?
Shri Mataji: Madappa.
Sahaja Yogi: His sister is here, Mother. Sister’s name is Daya. She wishes an audience with you. She says that you know this K.C.
Shri Mataji: Of course.
Sahaja Yogi: We didn’t know that it was someone that was saying they knew you. We didn’t know.
Shri Mataji: Madappa. Madappas was secretary of Sanjeeva Reddy. He has seen Me curing Sanjeeva Reddy and curing so many other people. Madappa. A friend of C.P. Oh, I would love to see him.
Sahaja Yogi: Actually it is his sister. Doctor Ganapati, who is a sister of…
Shri Mataji: Yes. So where would she like to see Me?
Sahaja Yogi: So we have a telephone number here. We could ring her.
Shri Mataji: And whenever she is free, ask her. Whenever she is free. See, tomorrow is a program, isn’t it?
Sahaja Yogi: Tomorrow night is a program but tomorrow is free tomorrow day. Is eleven o clock ok?
Shri Mataji: Eleven o clock what? A person coming, at eleven o clock. Before that? No?
Sahaja Yogi: How about after two?
Shri Mataji: Or can we have it before the program tomorrow. Day after tomorrow we are going, aren’t we?
Sahaja Yogi: No wait. We are going on Friday so tomorrow is Wednesday.
Shri Mataji: Then she can see Me on Thursday morning.
Sahaja Yogi: Thursday morning.
Shri Mataji: Thursday we will go out for shopping a little bit.
Sahaja Yogi: Ah, wonderful.
Shri Mataji: Because I want also show him some things here. You make one thing, the same thing you get in Melbourne, that I was telling you about.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: That is something you make. I have discovered four-five things that you make in Melbourne.
Sahaja Yogi: And you wanted to see Kerry too, Mother, sometime. Kerry?
Shri Mataji: I want to see him, Kerry also. I want to see him. So we try on him after the program, anytime.
Sahaja Yogi: Thank you.
Shri Mataji: Day after tomorrow. After the program. There is still time. A lot of time.
I do not know when they started taking money in the name of God.
Sahaja Yogi: A long time ago.
Shri Mataji: But Martin Luther was a realised soul. He flouted Mister Pope completely. And he brought him to task. But then again these same people have taken the same sort of thing.
Sahaja Yogi: I have often wondered whether Paul used to make money on the side.
Another Sahaja Yogi: I will bet he did. I am sure he did.
Sahaja Yogi: Paul, Mother. I never cared for Mister Paul.
Another Sahaja Yogi: [UNCLEAR] with new horses or something.
Shri Mataji: He must be. Must be. He was not connected with God, he must be. You see, he must have changed his role just to make money. Otherwise, why did he become a Christian?
Sahaja Yogi: There must have been a reason.
Shri Mataji: But he was hanged later on you know. He was hanged ultimately.
Sahaja Yogi: I am sure he had the latest horse Mother. Like you have the latest car, he must have had the newest horse.
Shri Mataji: Latest car. But I must also say one thing – that people are extremely, extremely stupid. They get what they deserve. I went to Boston, I think, yes. And they asked Me a question, the TV people – how many Rolls Royces does She have? That time Rajneesh was on the top you see. They said, “She has no Rolls Royces. She has no money”. They said, “We are not interested”. It is a business you see.
Sahaja Yogi: The television and media industry in the States is a business. If they think there is no selling property in whatever we offer them, then they don’t want to know. They are selling [UNCLEAR].
Shri Mataji: That is not their responsibility. Because television came on this earth, you can see from the photographs – the whole electrical energy manifested in the brains of human beings for Sahaja Yoga.
Even if they accept it or not, they must know it is for Sahaja Yoga. For spreading Sahaja Yoga. Because Christ came, that time there were very few people. They could not spread Christianity. They did all this mess out of it. But now there is television.
Sahaja Yogi: They have been ringing today all day asking, “We saw that lady on the television last week. When is She speaking in Melbourne?”.
Another Sahaja Yogi: Hundreds of them.
Shri Mataji: Really?
Sahaja Yogi: Just one little television program. Just keeps going. And it would be the same in Adelaide. Because they saw it there too.
Shri Mataji: Same?
Sahaja Yogi: They saw that program all around Australia. Every capital city and a lot of smaller cities. There were telephone calls from Townsville, right up in the north of Australia. From Perth, from Adelaide, from Canberra. All these places saw you. I have not had time to tell Mother the incredible story of the school.
Another Sahaja Yogi: Mother, I have something. I go to a teacher’s college.
Shri Mataji: Yes?
Sahaja Yogi: And learn how to be a teacher. And one of the subjects we were doing yesterday was Psychology in Education. So, one man, he’s been a psychologist for twenty-five years – he is teaching us how to understand our students. And his remedy for relaxing is to take one bottle of alcohol at a time and drink it. That’s what he is teaching us at school.
Anyway, yesterday I had some of your posters to do at the school, to put up at the school. And I was sitting there for two hours. We were talking about what is intellect, how good the ego is, and how to enhance the ego. The ego must take you on.
And I was going, [UNCLEAR/sleeping] like this and there was one other girl in the class. A very simple girl from up the country and she said, “Excuse me, Mr Sullivan, what you are talking about ego – is this sort of left side female past and right side male future action? And sort of ego and superego are somewhere up there?”. And I listened and I thought, “Ah, that is Sahaja she is speaking of”. And the psychologist said, “No, no, that is all wrong. That is wrong. From the left side, we learn how to write and from the right, we learn how to read. That is what we are talking about”. Finished.
So I went to her after and said, “Do you want to know about the left side and the desire, the pure desire of God? And the pure action of God and how we can do this? The balance and the central channel?”. She said, “Yes. Do you know about that?”. I said, “Yes, I do. I have it here”. And I showed her one of Your pictures. And she said, “That’s Her. That’s the Lady. That’s the Lady”. And I said, “Where did you see Her?”. And she said, “On television”. And she’s coming tonight. And tomorrow night.
What a wonderful thing television would be, as you say, for Sahaja Yoga. If we can get time, don’t have to fight our way in. Because it is so much easier. It spreads straight out.
Shri Mataji: Even loudspeaker you will be surprised is of such help. You see, I used to speak and Raolbai she told me she sees vibrations. “Going from this, Mother”. “Really?”. She said, “Yes, they go into this”. Then I said, “Let’s try one thing”. I started blowing into it. That works.
That means whenever I speak also it opens out. This television man got it afterwards but I don’t know if he is going to announce that or say that.
Sahaja Yogi: He wants to see me when I go back to Sydney. He asked me out to lunch but I couldn’t go because I had company. But I know he wants to talk about it.
Another Sahaja Yogi: Maybe we could get him for Ayers Rock at Uluru, for Ganesha Puja in 88. Mine it up for them. Would be wonderful.
Shri Mataji: That is good. Already your group will be very big I think so.
But this I said on television, left and right? I must have said.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, she said she heard it from you.
Shri Mataji: In such a short time.
Sahaja Yogi: So the audience watching at home was much better than the [UNCLEAR/interviewers].
Shri Mataji: They were all the time dressing up, looking after the dress and grinning at the thing. You see I was watching; they were very self-conscious.
Sahaja Yogi: Oh yes, being on camera.
Shri Mataji: Ah yes. They were not for this program at all. None of them were seekers.
Sahaja Yogi: It is funny sometimes. You have a microphone and you have somebody who talks a lot, “la, la, la…” and you put the microphone in front of them and they go “Uphh…” and they can’t say a word.
Shri Mataji (to a Sahaja Yogi in Marathi): You should go out and walk around.
(To another Sahaja Yogi): You can take him around a little. Let him have a look. He is new.
Sahaja Yogi (in Marathi): I will rest for a while.
Shri Mataji (in Marathi): All right. Take a rest.
Sahaja Yogi: It is amazing how self-conscious they get the moment you put a microphone in front of somebody else. Put a camera in front of them and bang! They think, “Everyone is looking at me”.
Shri Mataji: Really?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, everybody goes …
Shri Mataji: Yes, that is something. Self-consciousness.
Sahaja Yogi: We have a saying, you cannot worry about what other people are thinking about you. Because they are not thinking about you. They are thinking about what other people are saying about them. It’s the truth.
Shri Mataji: Ah, it is very true.
Rustom and this have gone somewhere?
Sahaja Yogini (in Hindi): They are sleeping.
Shri Mataji: They are sleeping? Both of them? They never had their lunch or what?
Sahaja Yogi: We had tea and cheese and biscuits and talk. And Rustom went for a walk and Rajesh Shah is asleep. When the food was brought, it was dished out and we had to take it back.
Shri Mataji: They are tired, I think.
Sahaja Yogi: And everybody else is now outside at the railway station [UNCLEAR].
Shri Mataji: Handbills and all that, yes.
Sahaja Yogi: We have been successful with handbills.
Shri Mataji: Handbills and posters are also very useful. But television is just for Me, nothing else. I mean, I can give realisation to people, if they give Me the chance and the time. But the way they, just put you in the seat and then you are out, like a jack in the box, they will throw you out and then another person comes in and sits. Just impossible.
Sahaja Yogi: Television is bringing a lot of people to Your programs.
Shri Mataji: Also Sahaja Yoga is a very sensible thing itself. It works out. Like, as many people as you can have you see. It will get the people that you can balance also. It goes on balancing. It does not give you too much of a load also. If you have too much of a load, how will you manage then?
Sahaja Yogi: This is always one of the things that I have looked on in wonder. How here, in Australia as we have grown, so we have got a few more. But we never had too many.
Shri Mataji: Too many, yes. You came to Melbourne, first time?
Sahaja Yogi: Oh no, no. I came before the last time.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no but when you got your realisation, you got it where?
Sahaja Yogi: Sydney.
Shri Mataji: You got it in Sydney. But a lot of people came to Melbourne in ’82, I think.
Sahaja Yogi: Ah yes, they came from, the original lot came from Sydney.
Shri Mataji: Ah yes, I see.
Sahaja Yogi: Then they transferred.
Shri Mataji: Spread out, I see.
Another Sahaja Yogi: That’s when I first met You, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: You met Me here?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes. It was my house that you came and stopped in [UNCLEAR]. The very first visit. The very first visit was in a small wooden house.
Shri Mataji: Of course, I remember him very well. Because he came to receive us and he took us down to his house. A small little house, I remember. Stayed there. Everything I remember very clearly. That part. But that time he was not listening about Sahaja Yoga so much.
Sahaja Yogi: I was pretty stupid then, Mataji.
Another Sahaja Yogi: We heard some funny stories about that.
Shri Mataji: But I got around him. I could see that he is a seeker but he’s lost his way. So I took a lot of interest in him. No, those who came first, always go wrong. Something goes wrong with them you see. Horrible they are. One better than the other. I mean I don’t know how to adjust that.
Everywhere it has happened. Even a person like Gregoire lost his head. I was quite surprised. He was quite shocked but then he confessed to Me, “Mother, it happens”.
Sahaja Yogi: [UNCLEAR]. Three weeks ago, we were adding up the number of …
Shri Mataji: Sahaja Yogis.
Sahaja Yogi: There weren’t many. We were getting a bit worried.
Another Sahaja Yogi: Makes you cautious Mother.
Shri Mataji: Yes, it happens.
Sahaja Yogi: It makes us very cautious Mother. Makes us very cautious.
Another Sahaja Yogi: Be careful.
Shri Mataji: In London also, I gave realisation to some few before. I mean, the first batches which had come. Gradually, surprisingly they became quite funny. And they started an organisation called “The old Sahaja Yogis”. I did not know that. Suddenly I found the behaviour rather funny. I said, “What is this going on?”. They said, “We are old Sahaja Yogis”. “All right. Better be seated now for your old age”.
Because you see, all these are ideas. Some person who comes today might rise very fast. Somebody who might have come from long – you have seen it, what happened.
Sahaja Yogi: Some people stay still, a lot.
Another Sahaja Yogi: Quite a few, don’t they? You talk about them and they say, “Well, I have been here five years, six years whatever it is…” and they are exactly the same. That person is exactly the same – from the minute I first met them.
Shri Mataji: That’s it. So what do you say to that? And even if you pass ten years you will be the same.
So what is most important is how far you grow, is the point. That growth is important. And this leadership, whatever it is, is not so important.
How far you grow. As soon as you grow, your light will grow.
And some people I have seen, have come to Sahaja Yoga very, very late. They have shot up like anything. And some people who have been there, I mean – there are two brothers and sisters, like Nirmala’s brother and Herself. There is a contrast I should say. Contrast. If you see the brother you will be amazed.
Sahaja Yogi: I know [UNCLEAR]. He is very good.
Shri Mataji: He is tremendous. He is very deep.
Sahaja Yogi: I think I take another thing. Looking back, I see, as the collective has got bigger, people develop quicker.
Shri Mataji: That is very important. Collective is very important. Collective is the nourishing garden. Helps a lot.
Now supposing you try this experiment. If there is a tree that is dying, you see. Now, you bring other trees next to it. It will grow. With a pot you see, where the flowers are dying. Bring it near the other pots which are healthy, it will grow.
Normally it will happen like this – if you have one bad apple, all the good apples will be spoilt. All their goodness cannot put right you see. That is it. But with the growth, it happens.
Something is living and growing. If somebody is dead, then, of course, the decaying is much faster. But if somebody is living and growing, with the more healthier people it grows faster.
Sahaja Yogi: This made it interesting Mother. When somebody in the collective gets sick, the first thing they want to do is move out.
Shri Mataji: It is true?
Sahaja Yogi: It is true. It is almost as if they want to commit suicide and destroy themselves.
Shri Mataji: Who?
Sahaja Yogi: Almost as if they want to destroy themselves.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Sahaja Yogi: By moving out. Moving away.
Shri Mataji: That is a typical example.
So many experiments we will be doing, more and more and more. And you will be amazed at the results.
Very much. Sahaja Yoga is such an enterprise I should say.
Every day you discover something new, every day you find out something new, that you can manage. Like the flowers. The miracle of the flowers.
Sahaja Yogi: The miracle was the breadboard Mother.
Shri Mataji: Ah?
Sahaja Yogi: The piece of wood that you pushed the flowers down was his breadboard Mother. That he cuts the bread on.
Shri Mataji: Oh.
Sahaja Yogi: He isn’t going to use it again.
Another Sahaja Yogi: I have put it in my bedroom, Mother.
Shri Mataji: We couldn’t find anything to do it with. I said they must be little bit dipped in the water. Because I had vibrated the water. This was very cold water so I said let us make it warm or hot. They said, “The flowers will die”. I said, “No, My hand is there. That will cool it down”. And all the flowers survived, all of them. And they came up so well and they grew in size.
Sahaja Yogi: And Mother, was it the heat from the body that killed the flowers?
Shri Mataji: Heat from the body?
Sahaja Yogi: Why did the flowers start to [UNCLEAR/wilt]?
Shri Mataji: Because of the heat from your body. You see, there was too much heat you were passing from the body. While I put them in the water and I vibrated the water with My hand. So you see, I may be perspiring Myself but I emit cool breeze. Ask him, he saw that.
Sahaja Yogi: We went shopping. And Mother was perspiring because it was very hot in the shop and I was helping Mother down the stairs. All of a sudden, this “whoosh” came in. I saw “Uh”.
Shri Mataji: And his wife too. “ See, Mother such cool breeze you are giving us”.
Sahaja Yogi: Swept us [UNCLEAR].
Shri Mataji: So I was cooling all of you and taking the heat within Myself. It is like an air conditioner you see.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: That gets heated up and makes everything cool.
Sahaja Yogi: Just like the fridge is very hot.
Shri Mataji: Fridge is very hot. If you see the back of it, it is. Even My tongue sometimes emits so much heat I feel, outside. It is going out in the night time. But if you put your finger around My nose in the night, it is a very cool breeze coming.
I wish Christ had told more about the Holy Ghost at that time. Talked about it.
Sahaja Yogi: Do you think Mother that we have been told all that was talked about that time.
Shri Mataji: Lot of it. This must have been lost because I am sure He told about Kundalini and all that. But you see, the disciples were not realised until He lived, as you know that. And they were a very uncertain quantity. They were very frightened because He was crucified. They could not say that a man who was God was crucified by human beings. How to prove He was God is that.
Mathew was very much frightened about saying something about the Immaculate Conception. There was a big fight between him and Paul because he outlasted Christ. And he would not say that. Paul would not say. In his books, he has not mentioned a word about all this.
But Mathews was forced by other disciples that we must write whatever we have seen. So the whole thing became like a, what we should say, like a loose organisation between them. They wrote whatever they felt like in the Bible, but not what – John was a young and enthusiastic fellow. So he wrote lots of things in that. As a dream or anything, but he wrote many things; which is quite good. But still, a lot of it is missing because Christ could not have missed those points; I am sure of it.
Sahaja Yogi: Most of them couldn’t write could they? Only Luke and Mathew were the only two could write; I don’t whether John could write.
Shri Mataji: John could write also.
Sahaja Yogi: True.
Shri Mataji: But Mathew used to write really well. They were all fishermen. Ordinary people of ordinary intelligence. How far could you talk to them about Kundalini also?
But I am sure Christ must have told them that there was a force within you. That he must have told them. [UNCLEAR]. And that is why when the cool breeze came to them, you see, they felt that it is the Holy Ghost. Otherwise, they could not have related it to that. They must have known. Very haphazard, the whole thing was.
Also, when Christ made the wine. Now wine was in those days not taken like that. The way we take; it was called as “strong drinks”. And was prohibited. It was prohibited. If you read Moses, He has prohibited “strong drinks” clearly. But that was not Christ’s realm to talk about. You see, He never made wine – wine which we talk of nowadays – alcoholic. Because alcohol cannot be made in a minute. That was the point one should see.
You see, He made the wine means He made the juice. Tastes like wine.
The other day this Romano fellow. I asked him you first take something because they all drink. So, he is the fan of the Italian people, you know, the one who did [UNCLEAR]. So he said, “You first give me realisation”. So I put My hand in the thing and said, “You first drink this water”. “This is water?”, he asked the girl. “You brought water?”. “Yes”. “This tastes like wine”. I said, “Go ahead, drink. Get it right”.
And then also many things happened with him. He arranged a program, a big program in Italy in a place where they have a very expensive holiday camping place. They call it the Santa Pietra. Pietra is the stone. That there is a saint that is a stone. Must be some sort of a swayambhu. So we went there. Marina Santa Peitra is the place. And there he had a big program in a big palace which had a very big open-air theatre and all that. There he had the program. But he told Me, “Everybody told me that you can’t have the program because it is going to rain cats and dogs. It’s going to be very bad or maybe snowfall or maybe something”. I told him, “No, not possible. There will be no rain at all, believe Me”.
So we had Algenes/L. Ganesh(?) and Alegens/Ganesh said, “If Mother says so, we believe it”. He said, “My faith is so strong as yours”. I said, “All right, but just try it once”. So Gregoire and all these people had come from outside that day. They said, “Till we came inside the city, it was raining, there was hailstorm; we thought we won’t be able to reach. That is now clear cut”. Then they came.
And we had in the evening, the program. An absolutely clear sky. An absolutely clear sky. And about six miles away from there, it was raining, there was hailstorm all around. And the program went off very well. So, in the beginning, only he said, “The first miracle is this. That She had told me there will be no rain, and everybody I telephoned said it is going to rain – take a bet on it”. A very nice man. And it was very interesting the way the whole program came up, everybody got realisation.
In Italy now it is quite established. Especially in Milano areas, it is really established. Italians are not so fond of the Pope, they have had enough of him. He has got six thousand schools all over Italy. And very highly paid schools. Very highly paid. And nobody gets admissions there very easily. It is a very big money racket. All those things they know.
And they were saying that every day there are six to seven thousand visitors. And every visitor has to pay so much money [UNCLEAR]. Just for visiting the Vatican. All that he is earning every day. Such are his earnings and I have seen really, that he has a tremendous amount of treasury. Tremendous amount. Even more than the Czars. He does not want to sell it.
While Italians were saying, “We are so poor”. That time. And all the Catholics you see are very poor. Now, the Italians have improved. They asked Me for one thing that mafia is to be completely finished. That thing has happened now. Also that their poverty should go. Now they have become very rich people.
Sahaja Yogi: [UNCLEAR/Como].
Shri Mataji: Really? We had a program there, in Como. And such a big, huge hall – bigger than yours, all filled with people. And one priest came and started saying, “Thank Mother for She has given us our light, She has given us our Self-realisation”. That was a priest. Priest.
Sahaja Yogi: [UNCLEAR].
Shri Mataji: Because he is a priest, Sahaja Yogis don’t allow him to come. They said, “You better change your dress, otherwise, we won’t allow you to come”. I did not say anything at all. There you can do it because Sahaja Yoga is very much established.
So who is this psychologist who was teaching there? What sort of a school?
Sahaja Yogi: It is a teachers college Mother, for technical teachers. So I teach cooking for the trade, the technical trade. And we have plumbers, hairdressers, pastry makers, cooks and electricians. And all we who teach have to go two days a week to learn how to teach further. So it is a very big “how to teach the teachers”.
Shri Mataji: So he is teaching psychology to you people also?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes. Psychology in education. It is supposed to let me know what happens inside the students’ heads. You should be doing the teaching.
Shri Mataji: What happens? I mean, you are feeling the stomach and the tongue. It never goes to the head does it? I think any cooking done with love turns out to be good.
And every country has its own style because it suits them that way you see. Whatever suits that country, they take it. So now it’s done? All right?
May God Bless You.
There is something I wanted to tell you both. It is a little personal. You see, our great Mr David has married an Australian girl. And like all other Englishmen, he doesn’t talk. So she says he doesn’t communicate. So I said, “Englishmen don’t talk much, you see. They allow others to talk. They listen more than talk. So you don’t get upset. You go on talking. He will listen to you. He will listen to you in any case”.
So I am just to going you people, you are marrying outside. Especially an American, they talk a lot. So just don’t keep quiet. You have to talk. If they say something you better talk. And you have to start talking sometimes also. Because David really shocked Me. He said, “Really, I communicate all right Mother”. He was quite surprised. I said, “He is a quiet fellow. That’s all right. He is a little quiet”. That is the way they are. The English don’t talk much.
Sahaja Yogi: [UNCLEAR], things you think you say without actually communicating. Means you feel immensely you are communicating. I used to find that with people. I used to think that I spoke a lot, but actually it was just going on in my own head. It wasn’t actually, wasn’t actually communication, it was in my own mind.
Shri Mataji: Ah. In your own head, you were talking. You better tell David. No, because poor David, he did not know what was wrong with him. He is a quiet fellow. He lived in My house for a year or so. Quiet. You see, tell him something, he will do that.
[Break in recording. Resumes when Shri Mataji is speaking on another subject].
Shri Mataji: .. with Gorbachev and say your America. I mean she is a small country, now come down to your level and don’t tell people that, “We are British, British, British”. And all the money is drained off, you see. It’s so much trouble for these people. Young people are really become poor there. No jobs, money, nothing. All the money is going to missiles. What are you going to do with these few missiles?
It is terrible, terrible the way things are happening there. Sometimes I feel this lady has no heart. Like a mother to think about her children. So many young people are unemployed. She is not bothered about unemployment. How these things come in? Because of unemployment. Drugs or anything. They have nothing to do poor things, what can they do? What is their future? She is not bothered.
And now what has she done? What she has done, you see, is open the market. This whole thing is open now. Anybody can go and this bull and this stuff have started. Is all open. So anybody can do what they like. So the pound has gone up. Anybody can go and join the stock exchange. So, it the thing has gone up. The pound is up, all right? But what is the use?
Sahaja Yogi: Pound is gone up but its no good if you haven’t got any.
Shri Mataji: It is artificially. It is not really. Because she has allowed people to take loans, as much as they want. Then another thing she has done. Is a very dangerous thing. That whatever is the income out of the factories, she wants to distribute as bonuses to all the shareholders. So the factories will become tomorrow very weak also. All money, all earnings are going to the people. Just to have cheap popularity.
Once all the money is wasted and frittered away like this, what will happen? Even if they have more money what will they do? They will just drink? People are just buying things because they are getting loans and loans. Everybody is getting a loan there. They are very anxious to give loans. Because of that, the pound has gone up.
It is a very artificial way. The same thing was done with Reagan. Also, I must say, in their country they gave a lot of loans to other countries. That is how they kept up themselves. But now where are they? They cannot raise their dollar whatever they may try. I mean, that is now, that is a capitalist country as far as that thing is concerned. They are capitalists who are ruling.
And this is not capitalism. This is not conservatism. They are not conserving at all.
And this country is another mess I see. The labour laws are so high up. I remember a long time back, my husband used to say, “The worst is the labour of Australia”. I said, “Why?”. “You see, now they are asking wages for bending. So now the wages in the whole of our shipping will go up and we will have problems” and this and that. So now they raised the wages of the labour. All right. So now what is happening? Because labour is so expensive, you cannot produce anything. Because you cannot produce anything so you get everything from abroad.
People here are having just doles, no wages, nothing, no work and spending more for the things they are getting from abroad. Everything is imported in this country. Everything. I was shocked. Everything is imported in this country. It is going to be like Canada which is depending on America.
Sahaja Yogi: The same thing is happening even in the television industry, Mother. One of our problems here in Melbourne particularly with television to take much interest in your visit is they say, “All our programs come from Sydney”. So everything…
Shri Mataji: They are what?
Sahaja Yogi: They all come from Sydney. All the programs are from Sydney and they send them down the line to Melbourne. It is the same kind of thing happening within Australia. Everything is getting smaller and smaller.
Shri Mataji: Not localised.
Sahaja Yogi: No.
Shri Mataji: But one thing is there. You may not have localised, ah, this thing. But supposing tomorrow you start getting everything from England, then what will happen? Everybody will have doles sitting at home seeing the English programs. And then it might only be from India you might be getting. After sometime importing even that.
Sahaja Yogini: [UNCLEAR/sugar?].
Shri Mataji: See, we must not keep our children without any work. That is a very dangerous thing. That is a very dangerous thing to do. Oh, I have to take that, I am sorry.
(In Hindi to someone): Please get that to eat, what was brought here just now. Yes, bran, bran.
I will have to attend to the treatment of Mister…I will just take a second. Let Me have that. This is Mister, yes, I will take that. Yes, what is it?
Sahaja Yogi: I wasn’t going to mention it before the program Shri Mataji, but there is some negative ex-Sahaja Yogi…
[End of recording].