1987-05-13 Interview with Newspaper ‘ ‘The Age’ Melbourne NITL HD

Interviewer: Have you had a chance to look around, or everyone looking at you only, all the time?

Shri Mataji: (Laughing)No I have been looking around also and I went round to see places, but I have been to Australia before, four years so I have seen it quite a lot.

Interviewer: What are your impressions?

Shri Mataji: Ah, it’s a.. Australia has great potential I think and as far as the country’s abroad are concerned, I think they can give a very big lead spiritually, to the whole world.

Interviewer: Nice to think (UNCLEAR) other countries, spiritually (UNCLEAR)  spiritual countries, (UNCLEAR) materialistic culture.Why do you say it could give  spiritual lead?

Shri Mataji: You see you may think that way, but basically, we have built up that within yourselves I think.’Spiritual potential’.

Interviewer: I noticed in one of the interviews which was in the media I think it was an American journalist, interviewing YOU and YOU say that Australia is like the lowest chakra in the body. I have forgotten what it was called.

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes.Mooladhara.

Interviewer: Where is this chakra placed?

Shri Mataji: This chakra is placed below the Coccyx and..

Interviewer: Where is that?

Shri Mataji: Coccyx is a triangular bone. That is at the end of the spinal cord.

Interviewer: Right. Could you explain what you mean by Australian could be like..?

Shri Mataji: That is the first centre created.Before the creation started this is the first centre created of innocence and this is the centre of innocence.

Interviewer:So  you see Australia as having a sort of idealistic or innocent role…

Shri Mataji: Basically  they are innocent people.

Interviewer: When did you say this chakra was created first, did you say?

Shri Mataji: Yes before the creation.

Interviewer: Unclear.

Shri Mataji: That is the first chakra that was created. The first thing that was created was innocence on this earth, I mean on this universe you can say.

Interviewer: Are you the first person to say that or is it according to the Hindu..?

Shri Mataji: No, it is a, I should say they talked about Mooladhara alright, but they did not locate it. In the Puranas of course in our olden days, they have described a Saint called Krishambu who was punished for some little thing he did in the heaven and he was sent down to carry a part of the country between India and Africa moving downward and was said that we will be hanging in the air and this ‘Trishanku’ is what we call is the southern cross. What you call the southern cross is the ‘Trishanku’ in our Language.Alright.Now if some punishment is given also a sort of a little reward is given with that and in that you will develop your kingdom and you will have a garden of innocence. He said. But it was not located at that time when this was written when Puranas was written that it was Australia. These are olden books written and called Puranas. It’s old Books.

Interviewer: Yeah.YOU have been very busy since YOU arrived in Australia, YOU have been very busy since YOU arrived in Australia.

ShriMataji:(Laughing.)Yes. Because I am here according to the Australians for a short time, but I have given the maximum time to Australia.

Interviewer: This is YOUR second visit to Australia?

Shri Mataji: No, no.Four times. This is the fifth time I am here. Last year I did not come.

Interviewer: And each time YOU get more people coming to see YOU?

Shri Mataji: Ofcourse. It is increasing steadily, very well. I think because it is a living process you see, so it manages itself like this when we had very few people. We shouldn’t have too many people because you have to look after them. You have to nourish them so as much as we could bear. Every time we get people as much as they can bear.

Interviewer: Right.Right. According to this, YOU were brought up in a Christian family?

Shri Mataji: Yes.

Interviewer: The tradition of which YOUR path would basically belong to Hindu? Would I be right there?

Shri Mataji: Not Hinduism.No.See my father was a very learned man, and he was master of fourteen languages. He was a member of the constituent assembly, Parliament and all that. And my mother was a scholar herself. She was a mathematics honours and they all were not Christians in the sense that they studied everything. My mother and father were scholars of Sanskrit also. So they have a full idea about the relative study of all the religions. But I was born with this knowledge and they supported me throughout. That is what I said about religion was correct. So it is not a Hindu idea we should say. It is nothing like the Hindu religion. It is a way of thinking. We have people who are atheists who don’t believe in God also are Hindus. All kinds of people are Hindus. So because of my parents and because of my  own understanding of religion, I was even supported by my family and my father used to read ‘Geeta’also in the Church. (laughs)

Interviewer: Could we say YOUR philosophy if l could use that term goes beyond one religion. Could I say that …..?

Shri Mataji: Of course. It is about every religion. I mean my father translated Quranic Sharifi into Hindi and what I am saying is also in Quran.Absolutely  written down that you have to be connected with God and without connection with God if you try to talk about God you can do cruel things. You can do horrible things.

Interviewer: Sorry I missed that.

Interviewer: Without your connection with the God, if you try to use God, propagating His name then you can become cruel and you can do horrid things. We studied also I mean Buddhism, Zainism, Lao Tzu. Everyone. Ofcourse, the Bible.

Interviewer: Right. Christianity,  as a normal practice like in Australia, is a very UNCLEAR religion in the sense of terminology and doctrines and you know the same with, where you can (UNCLEAR) by looking at New Testament. What do you think of that style of Christianity?

Shri Mataji: You cannot make it academic you see. Divine Laws can not be academic. They are what they are. You cannot twist around them the way you like you see. You can not organise  with your brains. I once asked my father, ”why is it that he did not tell who was the mother of Christ.”? He said that, at the time of Christ, it was a sensitive point because people would have attacked HER and Christ would  never have tolerated that. And even when Martin Luther came in, or even before that, when Mathews was there, they said that if you talk about HER there will be a problem. And when Martin Luther came in as a Protestant, who was a realised soul. He was a realised soul but he was oppressed by so many people around him and he was a single person. He said that if you talk about women now and give them importance then the Muslims won’t join Christianity. It was more a sort of a what you call it in the Sanskrit language as ‘Samayaschar’, ‘according to the timings.’He had to say like that but Christ’s mother according to us was a special power.

Interviewer: What sort of power?

Shri Mataji: She is a ‘Power’ who gives us ‘Evolution’. Actually the  power that gives us ‘Self Realisation’  which  is the ‘Kundalini’, is a female power. See the absurdity. You can logically see . Even the academician should see this. That you have a Father God. You have a Son God and can a Father get a son without a mother?

(Both laughing)

Just ask a simple question. You can’t imagine and absurd. How can you negate the mother? Logically you reach that point. Don’t you? (Laughing.)

Interviewer: No one put it so simply and so correctly UNCLEAR.

Shri Mataji: Laughing. Because they are academics you see, they have acrobats. In acrobatics you miss the points I think. It is written in our books about Christ very clearly, in Indian books where they have described the Goddess. How Christ was conceived, how HE came on this earth, how HE was born, who is HE, what are HIS powers? It is all described. But you see the organised religions always put blinkers and you can’t read anything else.

Interviewer: You spend most of the time travelling, all Your time travelling almost. Is that right? 

Shri Mataji: Yes. I travel with my husband and I travel also otherwise. Because you know he is the Secretary-General of International Meta organization so I have been to Russia, to all the communist countries.

Interviewer: How did the Communist countries receive you?

Shri Mataji: Very well.

Interviewer: Did You give Self-realization?

Shri Mataji: Yes, in Russia we started doing something and also I was surprised in China. They are all asking for Spiritual life. See once the material wellbeing comes in then you start thinking of spirituality. That is natural. You can’t help it.

Interviewer: Do you think it is an innate need?

Shri Mataji: Of course, of course.Absolute  innate need of a human being.

Interviewer: Would you know about how many people you have given self-realization to? Difficult question. I am sure you have not counted them. One by one.

Shri Mataji: No. There are thousands.

Interviewer: You have been to America? You have been across Europe.

Shri Mataji: Yeah.In India.More in India in the villages you see. See in any village I go all the people gather there, sometimes six thousand sometimes eight thousand. That is the main thing I have to do is to give ‘amass realisation’.Not a single person but ‘amass’ .

Interviewer: It must be very trying to have to go…

Shri Mataji: (Laughing)I just witness the whole drama. It is a drama going on and you have to witness it. Very interesting sometimes, you see.

Interviewer: Do YOU feel you are called ., or by something which goes beyond being one person if I could put it that way. Do you have a duty which…

Shri Mataji: I just feel that this is my job.

Interviewer: Okay.

Shri Mataji: I have so many other jobs also.

Interviewer: What are they may I ask? What are they?

Shri Mataji: I am a housewife. I am a mother. I am a grandmother and I have to give realisation to people. None of these jobs pay for me. That is the best part of it. (Laughs)

Interviewer: What do you mean?

Shri Mataji: Being a mother nobody pays.

Interviewer: Oh, all right. (laughs)

Shri Mataji: To be a mother, nobody pays me. (Laughs) Giving realisation nobody pays me.(laughs)

Interviewer: Do you charge people if they come along?

Shri Mataji: No, no.Not at all.

Interviewer: Then obviously looking at the price tag of Your travels… 

Shri Mataji: Yes, This place now you see, I don’t know, these people have taken on rent on their own. I have nothing to do with it. They arrange. That’s  their headache. I don’t bother because I don’t understand accounts.

Interviewer: (UNCLEAR)  casket of jewels in London. (Laughing)

Shri Mataji: No, no, no. (Laughing)Now secondly as far as my travels, before this, my husband used to pay for it because he thought it was very good work  I was doing. But later on, now these people pay partly. They collect money. They don’t pay me, they pay the travel agents. You also have a trust I must say, but I don’t know about it much. They collect money because we are having different projects now to be established. We want to have Sahaj schools, we want to have development of villages, a….

Interviewer: In India or outside as well?

Shri Mataji: Yes, more in India. But we have most of the schools one was here, one is in I think  in Switzerland, one school is in Rome, and we have one school in very near Himalayas. And one school in Delhi.

Interviewer: Would you know how many followers you have in Australia?

Shri Mataji: Nobody will know. (laughs). Actually  we never keep, counts, we don’t have any records. We don’t have any membership. Nothing of the kind.

Interviewer: Can we talk about a little of ‘Realisation’? Obviously  I have read some material. Why is it that this gift has come to YOU, it’s come to YOU.?Can you explain that?

Shri Mataji: That I can’t say. You see, because tactfully one should not talk about oneself. You see, Christ talked about himself they hanged him. I don’t want to be hanged till my work is done, see.So there must be something special no doubt, but that I would say when people find out themselves, then they can know. But tactfully I don’t want to say anything about myself.

Interviewer: Can you explain ‘Realisation’ to me? I am surprised that something can happen so easily whereas you were always taught that to get any spiritual progress you have to work  at it for years.Laughs.

Shri Mataji: That is a money-making style. (Both laughing). Natural styles are all simple, like you sprout a seed you see. How much money do you pay to the ‘mother earth’? When the time comes it works out. It is a natural living process within us. It is the epitome we can say of the last breakthrough of our evolution. Evolution has been going on isn’t, by itself and now if the last thing has to happen it has to happen in a simple way.

Interviewer: What happens to a person? Sort of, what difference do they  feel?

Shri Mataji: Now as far as the person is concerned inside, inside himself he feels tremendous peace. He becomes aware, very aware, but he can be thoughtless. And his attention becomes active. And you can say the computer within starts working in a  perfect manner. In an absolute way.Like if , someone says, “I am a Saint” , how are you to find out? How will you find if Christ comes? So you must have some way of judging. And this is only possible when you are a realised soul, start feeling the energy around yourself and through your fingertips, flowing, as a cool breeze, and also from your Fontenelle bone area as a cool breeze. So you feel it actually. You have to certify yourself. Now, any questions that you have or any problems you have is very easy to avoid it  because you know beforehand on your fingertips. These are the centres 5,6,7,(Shows fingertips 5,6,7) Left hand is the emotional or the desire. The right side is the action. Wherever you have gone wrong will show you. The physical side also, and if you know how to correct them, that is the only thing you have to know, then you can avert any physical, mental, emotional problems. But the greatest thing that happens to human beings is that his central nervous system acquires a new dimension of awareness, that he becomes ‘collectively conscious’.For example, I can feel myself alright, what is the problem with myself and also I can feel your problems. Now if I know how to correct your problem sitting here, I may be able to cure you.

Interviewer: Just by sitting here?

Shri Mataji: Yes by sitting here, maybe, anywhere I can cure you. I said depending on your receptivity. Yesterday we had two cases. One lady came with Parkinson’s and she came and stood before me. I said you just put your hands towards me. She said, “Mother, my Parkinson is finished.” She was not shaking her hands, nothing. “Am I alright”? I said,  “you are alright”. I have a gentleman who is a friend or brother of some Sahaja yogi. He came. He said,  “Mother, I have a disease which all my nerves are finished  and they are telling me, doctors are saying that your hands and legs and feet are going to die now”. And he was shaking. Only for about two minutes. Then I said, “alright”. I raised his Kundalini in his Spinal cord. That power enlightened his cells and he stood alright. He said, “I am feeling alright, nothing is shaking”. “Sit down, you have got it”. So the spinal cord is the main thing which is enlightened. Inside the spinal cord are all these  centres which are enlightened.

Interviewer: Have there been any attempts by doctors opposition to look into the work you do?

Shri Mataji: Yes, now we have a regular system started in England. We have a doctor and a psychiatrist here. She is also going to work there. But already they have done a lot of work in Delhi, and there is the Dean of faculty of physiology, Dr Rai. He has examined people who have got ‘Realisation’ and he wrote a paper saying that, ‘physically they are much much better than normal people. Much more resistance.Their skin is shining,’ lots of things I mean, whatever he noticed and such a difference. And now he published in a paper also because he was allowed by the government so he was accepted. He did not want you to see, to make it more medical because all kinds of sick people will be there on our heads, you see, and we will be hampered in our ‘Realisation’ job. But if they come for realisation they might get well.l also had a try at ‘Aids centre’ and I cured one fellow absolutely.

Interviewer: Where was that?

Shri Mataji: In Australia.

Interviewer: In Sydney?

Shri Mataji: In Sydney was it?…but he was a TM fellow first of all. He might have got it with the T.M. group. And then again I told him not to meet anyTM fellow, don’t go near them but he didn’t listen to me. First, he was quite alright for two years. He came to London where I cured him. And again he started going to the T M people. He got it back and now he is dead. But his father will tell, he was completely cured and doctors were surprised.

Interviewer: Why would the T.M. interfere?

Shri Mataji: T.M. uses some sort of entities which we call them as ‘bhoots’..in our language you see.

Interviewer: I will not write this…….

Shri Mataji: No, no, You should not. Otherwise, they will be on our  head.

Interviewer: I would not put in the papers.

Shri Mataji: Alright. The T.M. people use a kind of a thing  from our collective subconscious, to entice us,or to mesmerise us because after all the main object is to get money. It is money oriented. So as a result of that, what happens, the entities start attacking us. They can get cancer, they can get anything, they can become recluses. Left side problem. Now with this gentleman also he was a T.M  fellow plus he might be a homosexual. Both things combined  together  he got attacked. So I told him not to go near them because they trigger. These entities from the collective subconscious trigger. Of course, doctors have gone to that extent to call them as protein 52, protein 58. That is what they call them but they are nothing but dead souls which are in our collective subconscious and they attack. Even viruses are something dead within us. They did say also, I am not saying,  doctors have gone quite near it to say that these proteins attack us from the areas built within us since our creation. So they are very near our description in the collective subconscious.

Interviewer: That means all illness is connected with, in your view, like dead souls attacking the body?

Shri Mataji: No, not all.Depends on.These are psychosomatic. Most of the incurable as the doctors call them, you see. But the physical illnesses are different.

Interviewer: How long will YOU keep, doing   what you are doing? Will  YOU give yourself  a  rest or are you going to retire?

Shri Mataji: (Laughing)I am already 65 years now.Running 65 th year.

Interviewer:55th year?

Shri Mataji:65th  year. I have completed 64 and now going to complete my 65 this year.

Interviewer: I must say YOU look very  good, for YOUR age.(Laughing) Despite all the travelling.

Shri Mataji: (Laughing)They say that.I don’t know how long. The sooner the better I rest,  these  boys take over, it will be a good idea.

Interviewer: Is there someone else or is there likely to be someone else,  do you think that will pass on the  Realisation?

Shri Mataji: Of course. They have been giving realisation already.

Interviewer:They can pass it on?

Shri Mataji: Yes, of course, they are doing it themselves.

Interviewer: Are they your disciple? Is that  the right word?

Shri Mataji: I should say they are my children,I call them.

Interviewer: And  do they call you  Madam?

Shri Mataji: They call me Madam.

Interviewer: You were talking about T.M. I don’t want to write an article  taking any group in perticular taking T.M but..

Shri Mataji: Most of them are like that.Most of them. Most of them are in debt. And most of them are using these pills and to entice people. See how madly they are into it. They can not even see for themselves. So clear-cut, so obvious.Stupidity like you see,  they make you jump in the air.There are  seven boys now who are prosecuted for T.M, in America, you might have heard about them, with all their bottoms broken completely. So many have come to me with epilepsy and all kinds of diseases.

Are you talking about T.M or some other kind of..?

Shri Mataji: Most of them.Rajneesh, the same thing he did. He did something else . T.M is doing something else but the same style. And they are all getting exposed, thank God. Falsehood has one good thing. They get exposed.

Interviewer: And some people will put YOU in the same group?

Shri Mataji: They would. They would. But  they should see I don’t take anything and I have done good  to others, you see.

Interviewer: So YOU think it is wrong to make money in the first place?

Shri Mataji: In the first place. That is the first criteria. And all the pope and.. will go away with that. (Laughing)You can’t make money in the name of God. You can’t have your living in the name of God. As simple as that. All these boys have their own  jobs. They work. They have jobs.And  I have my  own job as a housewife.

Interviewer: And you are leaving Australia tomorrow?

Shri Mataji: I will be coming back to Sydney again. I will be in Adelaide tomorrow. They know my program and I don’t know.

Interviewer: They know your schedule.

Shri Mataji: Yeah.

Interviewer: You are based in London?

Shri Mataji: Just now, Yes, yes.My husband.

Interviewer: How many children do you have?

Shri Mataji: I have two daughters and four grandchildren.

Interviewer: There was something else in the American Journal and you told the journalists he thought too much and then you mentioned diabetes and that  sort of thing.

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes.That is absolutely curable in Sahaja Yoga. Diabetes is very simple. Diabetes is not so difficult. You see diabetes comes within  imbalances within  us. Say in India in Indian village, a villager will take sugar so much that the spoon must stand in it the sugar, you see. They don’t get diabetes. Diabetes comes from overthinking. Those who think too much get diabetes. Also, they get diabetes, blood cancer, high blood pressure, kidney troubles, liver troubles and heart attacks. I mean, the futuristic people, who plan out, who think too much.

Interviewer: Do you sort of see certain characters  types who are only with some people, what about the other types be?

Shri Mataji: The other types will be those who are always sad, think of their past and are always nervous.

Interviewer: What sort of illnesses  would they get?

Shri Mataji: They get epilepsy, they can get also irritation of the skin by some eczemas and things. Ah, they get an (in Hindi)what is the new disease where the women don’t eat?

Sahajayogi: Depression.

Shri Mataji: They just don’t eat food at all?

Interviewer: Anaraxia.

Shri Mataji: Anaraxia. You tell them all the psychological things. (Laughing)

Sahaja yogi: You get depressed, you get weak muscles.UNCLEAR.

Shri Mataji: Also Cancer.And also this muscular disabilities.

Sahajayogi: UNCLEAR

Shri Mataji: Yes.And also angina from the heart.Lethargic heart. You see we believe disease comes from lethargic organs or by overactive organs.

Interviewer: So you got to strike a balance?

Shri Mataji: Yes. That’s the main point. So you have to come in  the centre. For coming in  the centre the best thing is to raise the kundalini because she ties them up. The centres. She ties the centres like this. See this is the centre you are going to the left or the right you see, breaking your relationship with the whole also and  constriction is there. When the kundalini comes she just ties them up. She strings them so all three get very integrated. You get a complete integration within yourself.

Interviewer: And are there any other personality traits say is causing changes?

Shri Mataji: There can be combinations, permutations and combinations of these seven centres. There can be A+B, A-B or AB raised to the power 7. (Laughs). All sorts I tell you.

Interviewer: Thank you for giving your time to me today.I really enjoyed  it.

Shri Mataji: Thank you. Very kind of you. I hope you will be able to publish all this because they said that newspapers are not interested in Sahaja yoga? I was surprised that newspapers  are now putting  me in the same line as other people, then what would happen.

Interviewer: I would certainly write it today and I think there is a good chance but it is up to my superior to say. I write and then other people make a decision.

Shri Mataji: I know, I know.Thank you.

Interviewer: I will certainly write it.

Shri Mataji: Thank you. Very kind of you.

Interviewer: Thank you.

Shri Mataji: Have you taken your photographs.If I stand up?

Interviewer: UNCLEAR

Shri Mataji:(In Hindi) Which camera is this?MY son -in- law is also a good photographer.

Interviewer:Yes?

Shri Mataji: He has published a book  which was inaugurated  by  Rajiv Gandhi ‘ Himalaya’. (In Hindi)Have you got it? Have you got my son-in-law’s book? In that, he has mentioned Kundalini.

Interviewer: You knew Mahatma Gandhi?

Shri Mataji: Yes, of course. (UNCLEAR.) 

Shri Mataji: That time I did not get the feedback in our copy. If he had  lived he would have worked for Sahaja yoga I am sure.

(Camera clicking)

(In Hindi) Show the  eight hand photograph also.

(Photos clicking)

I must say there are some miraculous photographs here. I think you must see them because it is something, that you will be amazed  how  these photographs are there, just to suggest something. I think they have some of them here.

Sahaja yogi: Yes.Taking them out.

Shri Mataji: Have you got the full album or (UNCLEAR). 

Showing the photos.

UNCLEAR.

He is the photographer. He went to the Himalayas. He went to  Mansarovar. Trekked  all the way  to that place. He tried to show how in our olden books like ‘Puranas’ whatever they have said is there. He was a scholar. He is the grandson of our President was Rajender Prasad UNCLEAR.

Interviewer: Good.

Shri Mataji: Good? This was published in Switzerland.

Sahaja yogi:(In Hindi). There are no hand photos.

Shri Mataji:(In Hindi). Where has the eight  hands  photo gone? It is not there. Where are the eight hands? UN CLEAR must be having. Where did it go?

Sahajayogi: Bringing it.

Shri Mataji: See this. My daughter is also there, Sadana. She writes, her English is (NOT CLEAR) she did her M.A  with ancient Indian Culture.

Taking photos.

Shri Mataji:(In Hindi). Where did it go?

Sahaja yogi: Not here.In Sydney.

Shri Mataji:(In Hindi.In Sydney? Haven’t brought it here?

Interviewer: (UNCLEAR).

Everybody laughing.

Shri Mataji: They are all outside.Outside.(Laughing). They are my children. I have known them since  long. They both are in US.. And there was one Englishman, a little boy I should say, at that time, and he wanted to discover something and I helped him a little and he got the  discovery, he felt that it is all my doing and he is taking a lot of interest in all this so he created all this. They are all realised souls and I know UNCLEAR. Now he is married to an American girl. 

Interviewer: Thank you very much.

Shri Mataji: Jessie, one of them is here.Not clear. It is taken by Rajesh. Rajesh has gone out? There are so many of them. The light coming on MY head. That might be there and this one recently there was a complete form of light before me. This UNCLEAR they did not understand that  UNCLEAR.

Which one is this?

This is in New Zealand, no not in New Zealand. That was in India. Photographer was coming..Not clear

Shri Mataji: That’s the one.

(UNCLEAR)

Shri Mataji: I was laughing and then at the  seventh one I put it down. I can see but they can’t. The camera can. Cameras are very sensitive. Vibrations also have a little light in the camera.

Shri Mataji This is the form that appeared. I think we should make a proper… every ashram should have it. These are very nice and done by  very young boy.

Interviewer: Thank you.

Shri Mataji: Let them have tea or something?

Interviewer:  (UNCLEAR)

Shri Mataji:(In Hindi). Give them something to eat.I am going to the room.

Interviewers: Thank you very much. Thank you once again.

Shri Mataji: Thank you.

Interviewer: Thank you.