1987-10-27 Media Interview and Talk to Sahaja Yogis, Italy
Interviewer: Welcome, Shri Mataji. Good morning.
Shri Mataji: Good morning.
Interviewer: We have some questions for you. The first is that you have this modern Sahaja Yoga. What is your method and how it’s different from other yoga methods around the world?
Shri Mataji: This method of awakening of the Kundalini existed in the ancient times, thousands of years back, in India. But only very few people got their realization. The reason was there were very few people ready to get their realization. So it’s so happened that there were three types of schools started in India. One was which was trying to understand God through the elements. So they started worshiping the elements and as a result of that the Vedas came into being. This is on the right side movement, we can say. The left hand side movement was the people became devoted to God, a devotion. They started singing praise of God, asking for his help. But when they had gone through these two different seeking then came to the center and where Patanjali Yoga, Patanjali Shastra existed. This what you call these days as “Hatha Yoga” – it’s just a wee bit of it. It’s Ashtanga, there are eight aspects to it. That also started long time back.
And we had a system in India of Chaturvarna, means Chaturashramas – there are four ashrams. The first one was when you are a child up to 18 to 25 years of age; then second one was when you were from 25 to say 50 years – when you are married. The first was Brachmacharya and the second was called as, so after the marriage, whatever was there, so that is Grihasta Ashrama where you became a householder. And then came the one of the Vanaprastha when you become grandparents you went and stayed in your own universities. Universities were called as “gotras”. And in those universities the small children were sent. And nobody was allowed to marry in the same gotra, even till today. If I belong to some gotra I cannot marry in the same gotra. So the purity, the innocence of a university was kept. And the fourth one was where …. Third one was called as Vanaprastha when the grandparents went to the university. And the four one was the Sannyas-ashram where they become detached and took to God.
In these four ways of life they used to pick up few children who were good for the awakening of the Kundalini, very few. So this method was there. No doubt that the awakening of the Kundalini was to be done. But was done in a way that every chakra was cleared slowly, slowly. They used to clear the chakras. Also they believed that if you clear one chakra this life than next life you clear another chakra, like that. It went on and on, and on, very few people got realization. Even the Indra, the one who was the King of the devas, also got his realization. There is placed called “Thidindra” where he got his realization. There is description of very, very few people getting realization. Nachiketa got it at the time of Rama. So all these incarnations didn’t do this job of giving realization at all. Only some saintly persons like the gurus, the Adi Gurus, they used to do it.
Now these incarnations started building up the different centers within us when they came on this Earth, one after another. Ultimately they built up to the Christ position, is the Agnya chakra. Now the last job was to now pass the people through the gate of Christ and break the Sahasrara – it’s the ultimate. The last chakra is the Sahasrara with one thousand petals in the brain.
In the Vedas also they described the seven stages lengthily. The first stage is “bhu“; Bhu means, is the Mother Earth. Mother Earth is represented by the first chakra of Mooladhara. Then “bhuvah“; Bhuvah means Antariksha, means the whole Universe which is created, all this world, this cosmos. Then the third one which you see here is “swaha” is the power to consume things, swaha; it’s the power of the Nabhi chakra, it’s to consume and to assimilate; that was created. Then there was, another higher than that was “mana“; Mana is the Heart chakra which was that you should have an emotional personality which should be like a mother, like the Jagadamba – the Mother of the Universe. Then above that was placed, is here, the Vishuddhi chakra, they called it as “jana“; once you can achieved this stage then you can go to people, means collectivity, then you can go to collectivity, you can meet people, you can talk to them about it. Then the place of Christ was “tapaha“; Tapaha means when you have to go into an ordeal to attain your realization; tapasya means penance – you have to pass through the penance; that was the time of Christ. Now the last stage is the seventh stage and at this stage the job was just to open this end of it to give the ultimate realization.
Now the same thing we can say about Patanjali who talked of all these things and he said that you have to reach a state within yourself, of your mind, where you become thoughtlessly aware, means Nirvichara samadhi; that means you have to cross this Agnya chakra. And then you have to become into Nirvikalpa samadhi where you become into doubtless awareness, where you cross this point absolutely; that you have no doubts anymore. So all of them talked of these things on three different levels. Patanjali also talked about the realization, part of it, how to do it. But the idea was first to cleanse their chakras, to make them healthy and then give them realization.
But modern Sahaja Yoga is different. I thought that first give them realization. First give them the light, a little bit, let them understand that there is light; then it’s one step ahead you have to move. Like my father used to say that if you were born on the tenth story you must make people raise at least one or two stories to know that they are other stories to go. Otherwise they will think this mundane life is their last end. So the modern Sahaja Yoga is that a little light is enlightened in you. Then you start seeing it yourself what is wrong with you; you correct yourself. I don’t have to tell you: you become your guru, you become your guide. Because in these modern times unless and until you mesmerize people you cannot do anything about them. And I don’t want to mesmerize them. I want to make them absolutely free. So one has to put the light in. In that flickering light only many people see what is wrong with them; they start improving themselves and going ahead with it. But especially this is the “blossom time” as I call it.
But it’s called as the time of Qiyama, it meant the Resurrection time, by Mohammed Sahib when he described that your hands will speak. That means your hands will feel your defects and that’s exactly what happens in Sahaja Yoga. Also it’s described as the Last Judgement by Christ. So all these things have relationship to what the prophets and the incarnations have said before. It is like a tree: first the root, then the trunk and then the branches, then the leaves and then the flowers, and then the fruits. So the whole thing is based on this knowledge, one after another. All the religions are absolutely true. But only the people who have said that, “This is my religion.” have plucked these living flowers from the Tree of Life calling “this is mine”, “this is mine” – they are all dead flowers. That’s why it looks violent.
Now this is what modern Sahaja Yoga is: that you first get your realization and then we see about it.
Interviewer: At the program there was a man who instead to put a question he only said, “Thank you, Mother, for a good job in this world.” We can understand why now.
So can we know something else about what else does this Sahaja Yoga?
Shri Mataji: What good it can do? Every good, in every sense of the word because actually it is the ultimate you have to reach.
You become an absolute personality, you know the absolute. You are not living anymore in a relative world where this is good or bad, this should be done or not. There is a discretion just built on your fingertips, on your central nervous system; you can feel it.
Apart from that, you become a very peaceful person, very righteous person and you don’t have to be told that “don’t do this”, “don’t do that”. You go beyond temptations. You become such a strong personality that you give up all your bad habits and you become a free person. You get over all your bias, all your intellectual entanglements; also you get over your conditionings that you have had and you become a free person, seeing everything clearly.
Apart from that you develop a collective consciousness, means you start feeling another person. When you start feeling another person then you develop a love, as if you have developed love for your own hand. And you don’t feel that you are doing any good to him or bad to him. But what you feel – that you are just helping yourself because your start feeling another person in your being and record it; doesn’t hurt you but you record what’s wrong with the other person and you can help another person.
Now this is such a change in life. A person becomes a very different person, he transforms. And this is what is very necessary to happen today to human beings.
Interviewer: And your thought “that all is beautifully made”, I think it was, from a talk in England, public program that I went to, where you said the evolution is not finished. Can you add something about this?
Shri Mataji: I’ve already told you that we have been built on the six chakras. The seventh had to be opened out and that was to be done. So that seventh chakra when opened then you become the Spirit which is your real being, that is the reality; by which you know reality. Not only you know reality but you become; again I say the word “become”. Means on your central nervous system you become collectively conscious and by that all the qualities that I have described of a very benevolent personality just comes into you automatically. If you touch somebody that person gets cured. You go into some house – that becomes auspicious. You try anything – you are successful. You’ve become so dynamic. All your health improves and you try to feel the joy of life.
So that is not relative. Human beings, as I’ve told you, live in a relative world and they have to become absolute and that is only possible by this breakthrough, last; this little journey of three to four feet of your kundalini from the triangular bone to the fontanel bone area: this is hardly three to four feet in human beings.
Interviewer: It’s difficult to put you a lot of questions because it’s better to listen to you. But just to understand better, can you explain in detail what happens in the central nervous system when Kundalini rises?
Shri Mataji: The central nervous system always receives whatever we gain in our ascent. Like, as I told you that if there is a dog and if you want to ask a dog to go through a dirty lane he can easily do it. But a human being cannot do it because he has built up within himself through his ascent as a human being a sense of cleanliness, a sense of filth and dirt and his nose cannot bear the filth. In the same way when you rise above this human state to the highest human state, or into super-human state, you become like a saint. Then you cannot bear sin, you do not do sin, you cannot commit sin; you are not tempted to do wrong things; you never take to bad things; you’ll always try to keep to your own personality and your dignity and you become a personality which is aboveboard I should say, above everything.
And that is what happens because our nervous system has built up in this new awakening. All the centers get awakened and once they get awakened they send messages to all the sides. Like this is the chakra, it’s here, and left and right side is both the sides. Now if it is awakened like that, the energy starts flowing on both the sides and awakens and that’s how what happens is that our central nervous system gets a new awareness which is called as the collective consciousness.
Apart from that, this energy also cures your being of your physical and mental maladies. Not only that but it also gives you that peace of mind, that balance within yourself that you can witness things that are going around. Your nerves are not shaking, they do not get shattered, they are strengthened. You can see things very clearly that there is a witness within you.
Some people say that, “We are the witness of Jehova.” Now they don’t know what they are talking about. Actually Jehova is the name of Virat. Virat is what they call as the Akbar, Allah hu Akbar. You see, Akbar that is Virat; it’s the form of Shri Krishna in the brain. In the brain of God is Virat, it’s the whole. And when the kundalini rises through this center what happens to you, that you become the witness because this is the center of Shri Krishna and you become the witness.
So in the Bible it’s written that you become the witness of Jehova but they don’t understand what it means. It means this kundalini has to rise and awaken Shri Krishna in here. Like Christ has said, “You have to be born again.” They don’t understand what is to be born again. What is to be born again is to have actually, actualization, of the experience of baptism. Then it is what is happening. Now unless and until this happens no use saying that, “I am a Christian.” It has no meaning because you are not yet baptized. It’s an actualization and the becoming of it. And that you can feel it on your central nervous system.
People say there is All-pervading power of God which does everything, which loves and which controls, it’s organizing. But where is it? We never felt it before. After realization your start feeling it – that’s the cool breeze; and that’s the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost. And the Holy Ghost is called as the Primordial Mother, in Sanskrit language as Adi Shakti. She is the one, has her power all over who is organizing everything, who’s doing everything and first time you start feeling on your central nervous system so you know that you have ascended and you have achieved something in your central nervous system in the evolutionary process.
Interviewer: I think that one can really feel it, doesn’t he?
Shri Mataji: Of course, of course. Not only feeling but you can act. It acts, it works. Feel it is not the point. You know how to handle it and you know how to manage it; and you know how to give it to others. You can raise the kundalini with your hand like this of other people once you are realized. All this can happen to you in case you become established in Sahaja Yoga. You become your own master. There are many people saying I cannot go to every part of the country and I cannot live there all my life. So the people once they get realization they start giving realization to others. So it has happened on their central nervous system, the power has come in them through this All-pervading power that they can give realization to others, they can cure others and they become so dynamic and so knowledgeable, everything. Because this nerve which was within has now assumed a new dimension of spiritual awareness which is all-pervading.
Interviewer: You are speaking of the Spirit as something so real because in our tradition, in our culture, in a common sense I mean, Spirit has become something you cannot have experience of. You can only think of it; you can hope that you can know the Spirit but mostly people have only the hope and die with this hoping. Let’s thing that it can be true, that in my life I can at least experience it.
Shri Mataji: Of course, everybody can, no doubt. But the main thing is that all this culture has come from perverted brains; I should say, which have no sense of reality. And it’s nowhere in the Bible, it’s nowhere said that when you die then only you’ll be saved and all that. Everybody dies, even an animal dies so what’s so great.
I mean, if you have to evolve now in the human state you have to know it in your awareness; you have to know it now. It cannot be just unknown. You should know it. Not only know it but you should also know how to use it, how to manoeuvre it, how to work it out. That’s why this instrument was created. In the beginning, supposing I’m making this instrument so I’m putting that part and that part; they don’t know anything, what is to happen till I put the whole thing. Once I’ve put it the whole thing then it has to know and then I put it to the mains. Once I put it to the mains everything starts working. So this kind of an idea that has come into people that we have to die, this will happen – this was of ignorance, they are ignorant, they don’t know about reality.
Interviewer: Which are the difficulties that a person can face in coming to Sahaja Yoga and immediately after realization? What kind of work must he do to establish his energy?
Shri Mataji: It’s like people getting from turmoil, or should say, from the ocean into a boat. Now in the ocean they were frightened of being drowned but now they get into a boat but still they can’t forget their past experience of that horrifying thing when they were in the water. So they still get frightened, “Oh, maybe we are still there.”, the thing remains in them. For example, a man is going through a very bad traffic and then he will just be on top of the hill and from there he is watching the traffic. Now he is not in the traffic but if there’s a break something, he sees a big car going, he’ll just say, “Oh, God.” as if he is in the car, in the beginning. Then he realizes that no, no, he is away from it; he is seeing all these things and he knows what is the mistake; and he knows how to correct it. But till that is established, just after realization the people start doubting, “Oh, what is this?”, “Is it correct or not?” Then some people who do not get realization talk much more than anybody else and they say, “No, no, no, it’s all hallucination” and this and that, all kinds of things start. You see, so one has to be very careful to note down the first experience of realization and that it is just the beginning and now you have to grow into it. That is what they have to realize.
And there where they fail because they are so used to their conditionings and things that they sometimes fall back. But some are very powerful people. When they get realization they just go off. We don’t have to bother about them that they will fall out. Though they might have defects but they understand this is the way and they work it out and it works very well.
Interviewer: Can one do it alone after he receives realization? Can one continue to do Sahaja Yoga by himself without collectivity, without the other people?
Shri Mataji: They can do it but they don’t feel like it. It’s like this. You see there is a tree. Now, for example, it’s a living force which works out Sahaja Yoga. There is a tree and it has many leaves. Now supposing a leaf wants to leave the tree. The tree has no objection, it can leave. It can just create a bark in between, some sort of a cork, and can drop off. But if the leaf has to have nourishment it has to keep together; stick to the source otherwise it will fall out. So it is important that in Sahaja Yoga if we have to grow we have to keep to the source and all the time receive it, all the time in a group, in a collective way.
Interviewer: About trees. Sometimes you say that “blossom time” is coming. What does it mean?
Shri Mataji: It means that, as I’ve told you, now we have all become flowers in this world. There are so many people who are trying to seek something beyond. They cannot accept that this Creator has created this world to be destroyed like this, half-baked. So they are seeking for that truth. And there are so many seekers, which means there are so many flowers which have to become now the fruits, and they do become.
Interviewer: About beauty. We know that you appreciate a lot Michelangelo. Many times you say that you like Michelangelo. Why do you like him?
Shri Mataji: Not only Michelangelo. There were so many great realized souls in the West; so many came like Michelangelo – was one of them. I must say he was a great artist, no doubt. But he was a realized soul. You want to take his name, vibrations starts flowing. He is a great man and he knew the reality about Christ, the way he’s painted him and done it. In the Sistine Chapel I find the vibrations coming out of his painting and that’s how people go there all the time to see it. And there are so many saints like this; great artists here. Barberini was another one – a great artist who was a realized soul, I would say. There were so many people who were a realized soul born in Rome and in Italy on the whole; very great people were there who put up such tremendous work in the name of God and took so much trouble to make such beautiful temples and churches, and things like that. But the people who made them do this didn’t understand God much. They always fought; these artists always fought with them – those who wanted them to build the houses or wanted to build them the churches or wanted to do the paintings. There is always a fight between the two because the artists who were realized souls could not understand these people who were just trying to tell them something which was not real. So you see so many artists like that.
Then you have got so many writers, so many poets. Now in England there is a poet called as [UNCLEAR] who has described everything about Sahaja Yoga; how the procession of Sahaja Yogis would be. There is also William Blake who has very clearly said where Sahaja Yoga will start, where we’ll do the ashram of Sahaja Yoga and how it will happen – so clearly. In India also we have poets like that. Like Rabindranath Tagore has described a place when we all will meet on the seashore completely. There are so many things that have been said about Sahaja Yoga.
So we can say that Mozart was another one who was a great person, who was a realized soul. Strauss was another. So many of these great musicians also were people who were, I would say, realized souls. And they did something of their own; they didn’t bother about what people were saying about their art. And they were mostly poor; they could not afford much; they had to work very hard and they worked it. And they did because they thought this was [what] they were supposed to do for the love of God; and they did it.
So what we understand about these people, artists, that they were poor after all; they didn’t care. They were just bothered about their art because it was dedicated to God. And Michelangelo was one of the greatest, I think, artists; truly, such a lot of work in Rome. And you are blessed. Because of him you are only saved. You see, the vibrations flowing through that. May God bless you.
Interviewer: You said Mozart, for instance. Which is the use of music in spiritual experience? I mean, can you use the music, singing mostly, in a spiritual experience?
Shri Mataji: Of course. You see, if I’m singing and people start singing what I find that the vibrations start flowing on the notes nicely because notes can carry the energy. But the singing music should be directed towards God and towards right things and to be sung by realized souls. In the same way Mozart now; when Mozart music plays it emits vibrations. If somebody is good, if the player is a realized soul then you feel the vibrations very clearly emitted. Also we can say that if you go to Sistine Chapel you can feel the vibrations of the painting there and you just feel that this was a great man who did this job. Because when he painted, through his pains and all that, the vibrations started expressing themselves, manifesting. And you can feel the vibrations there.
Music is very important for Sahaja Yoga but must be proper, sensible, decent and appealing to the gods and the deities on the chakras.
Interviewer: The deities on the charkas, you mean that we have deities inside us?
Shri Mataji: Yes, we have deities. All of them came on this Earth for us to build up this instrument very nicely, slowly through their incarnations they build up these chakras within us and settled down there. But they are to be awakened. And once they are awakened then only they work otherwise they are still sleeping.
Interviewer: What is the relationship between Sahaja Yoga and medicine?
Shri Mataji: Oh, tremendous it is. Medicine is like you treat the symptoms. There is a leaf sick and you try to treat the leaf. But actually if you have to treat the tree you cannot treat through the leaf. What you have to do is go to the roots and Sahaja Yoga is the knowledge of the roots. If you have the knowledge of the roots then someday you can understands what happens outside. If you see from the roots side then it is so much easier to learn medicine, very simple it is; very simple to understand what is medicine.
Interviewer: We live in a Catholic country unfortunately. Can you say something about Jesus Christ. Because It is in our experience but …
Shri Mataji: Of course I would say. Jesus Christ was an incarnation of innocence within us and this incarnation came on this Earth for a special purpose: it to establish the center in the center of your brain where there is the optic chiasm, it’s the cross where both the ego and the superego, your ego – or your karmas, and your conditionings join together. You can see there, on the sixth chakra. And here it is such a knot, it is such a big thickening that it’s difficult to pass through that. And because he was himself the vibrations, he was the Omkara, he was Logos, as you call it, he could walk on the water – it’s a proof of that. So he is the one only, because he was so subtle, he was so sukshma, that he could pass through that and he showed us the way of Resurrection. His crucifixion is not his message; what is his message is the Resurrection. He achieved the Resurrection.
Moreover he has suffered for us; in the sense that because he has suffered for us when he is awaken he sucks in all our sins, all our karmas, all our conditionings. This is what we have to understand when we say that he has died for our sins; means that he has suffered and we don’t have to suffer anymore; we have to just awaken him. If we start suffering ourselves that means we show no respect to his sufferings. As if he has suffered less or something is left for us to suffer. It is only a money making proposition: that you better suffer and give all your money to me, sort of a thing. It has nothing to do with reality. Christ has suffered for us sufficiently. We cannot suffer like him. And he has done everything that is necessary, we don’t have to suffer anything.
So to get awaken Christ and you can get into the upper chakra and you can get realization. There is no need at all to suffer or to go into all these nonsensical things.
Interviewer: Many times you speak about surrender to God.
Shri Mataji: Yes. And Islam means also “surrender”. Now surrender to God doesn’t mean just a lip service, “Surrender do I, surrender to you, God.” and then you go and murder somebody. And then you say, “Oh, God, I surrendered to you, please save me from this murder and you fight for me in the court.” As if the God is in your pocket all the time; you do all wrong things and ask his help. That’s not what it is.
It is that you have to first become a realized soul because you have to be born again. Now, there are people who just certify, “I’m born again.” and go around. No, you have to get your realization, you have to become that. Once you enter into the Kingdom of God then he looks after you. So then you are much surrendered. Even when you have got your realization and when you have understood that he is the All-pervading power and if you don’t surrender, that means you are dishonest. They are not honest persons. Anybody who’s honest should surrender thinking that, “Such a great thing we have ourselves felt it. Why should we not surrender when we have felt it ourselves it is there?” So that’s why he said, “You surrender.”
But also before realization what he was meaning is we should be humble people; we have to be humble. Arrogant people are difficult, they don’t get realization. I’ve seen in Italy people are very humble, they are the humblest among all the Europeans. It’s the easiest thing to give them realization. But the same thing I can’t do in any other country.
Other countries, people are extremely arrogant, thinking no end of themselves. And they are racist, they believe in horrible racialism, as if Christ was born in England or Switzerland they think. Christ was born as a Jew and that too he was a dark man. He was …. If the people who believe in Christ and if they are racist then they are anti-Christ. So that is what it is.
The people of Italy have got that humility, that understanding and that heart. That’s why Sahaja Yoga works out very well here.
Interviewer: About our roots. You know we are a Mediterranean country so what has been the roots of Greeks, Egyptian and Mediterranean also? And just in Italy, Etruscan and Romans?
Shri Mataji: Romans were very right sides people in those days, extremely right sided. They didn’t care for God or anything. And they thought best is to conquer all the world, that is the best way to achieve fame and this and that.
Interviewer: I beg your pardon. Right sided people means that the energy of …?
Shri Mataji: Right sided means those who are very futuristic, dominating type of people, who want to capture the whole world and this and that. And the another were the Greeks, Greeks were the same type. They were also right sided and they wanted to have everything according to their own style. So also they got hold of all the deities, also they made them look like them. Like they would say that he has, the God, this weakness and the another one has that weakness, just like any normal Greek personality. It was only domination on the deities, to put their own ideas onto them.
The Egyptians didn’t believe in conquering other people so much as enslaving them, using them because they were very comfortable and lazy people. They drunk a lot and they were lazy lumps. They wanted others to work for them so they wanted the slaves for themselves. Now what they did was to indulge into the area of death. They went into search for reality in death. They went into the burial places and they made mummies. And they made also for themselves huge big tombs; everything on the left side – who believed in the dead and goes towards death, in the past, that kind of thing.
And that’s how they got destroyed as the Romans got destroyed because they went too much on the right side. And also the Greeks got lost because they went too much on the right side.
And now the situation of the Greeks is that …. I mean, if you are on a ship travelling you can make out a Greek ship because it should be rattling all the while, it’s been in bad gear. I think why the Greek ships are so badly off. Once upon a time they were the leaders. Because they do not observe any laws, regulations, nothing. They want to carry on their ships in that manner. Not only that but they, many …. Now the shipping has gone down so they are trying to make false claims on the insurance; they are burning off their ships also. That’s how they have become. So the righteousness, the virtue and the serenity get lost.
Though I must say, very surprising the Egyptians, because they are traditional, very old people, of antiquity – in the same way are the Greeks and the same are the Romans – the one thing about them is that they understand the value of serenity. All of them understand value of serenity. It’s very surprising in all these three countries I’ve seen they have great sense of serenity.
Like in India, a lady is respected and people who are younger to her are alright – they can touch her or tease her, doesn’t matter so much. But older man never touches her and if they touch her they can only kiss the hand at the most. That is the system in these three countries. But in India they don’t even kiss. But that shows they have a respect for a lady who is a woman and the womanhood is respected. In all these three countries I’ve seen the motherhood and womanhood is so much respected and understood in their own proper proportions. It’s a very big thing that shows that they are traditional people, there is tradition in them. They understand what is tradition. Those people who have no tradition or they were like primitive people when the world was growing, they can shift to this side, to that side – they have no roots.
Interviewer: About motherhood. You spoke of Jesus Christ. Can you say something about Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ?
Shri Mataji: Mother Mary, she was the incarnation of Shri Radha – “ra-dha”, “ra” means the energy and “dha” means the one who sustains – and she got this child of her. It’s described very nicely in the book of the Goddess in Hindi how she got Christ as her child and how the child was like an egg which broke into two and how this … [end of audio part one]
… a desire comes into him that we must seek God now, what is God, where is spirituality, what is reality. He may not even know that he is seeking God but he wants to seek and when that seeking starts, it’s the power of Mahalakshmi, and that was incarnated in the form of Mary. But some way or another they didn’t want to stress on Mary. But Christ didn’t want to talk about her much because if they had come to know that Mary is the one who is the power then they would have got after her. And Christ had eleven powers of destruction and he would have destroyed all of them in no time and that would have created a big problem. So he didn’t talk about her to indicate that she is the incarnation of Mahalakshmi.
Interviewer: And you being a woman, is it important in your spiritual message? I mean, you being a woman has an influence in your message, in Sahaja Yoga?
Shri Mataji: Yes. You see, this job of Sahaja Yoga of modern times is very, very discouraging. It cannot be done, say by person like Shri Rama or Shri Krishna. Shri Rama if he had to face people like this, he would just take his arrows and kill all of them; he has no patience for all nonsense. Then comes Shri Krishna, it’s the same style: he would take out his Sudarshana Chakra and would kill everyone. If it comes to Christ, Christ would crucify them. Then if it comes to Buddha, he would say, “Take to Sanyasa. You all get out of this horrible world, it’s alright.”
But I have to make Sahaja Yoga work in this world. People have to live in this world. They don’t have to renounce anything. They have to be there, within themselves the kundalini has to be risen.
So they started the other way around. Buddha said, “Alright. First your renounce, leave these people here then come to me, then I will give you realization.” But he could not give realization to many people like that.
So now I had to work out a realization for the human beings who live here, with all their weaknesses, with all their problems. To give them realization you need a mother. Unless and until you are a mother: you have complete affection and love for them, and understanding, and a forgiving nature – a very all comprehensive temperament of compassion, very comprehensive understanding of your children – then only you can work it out otherwise it is not possible. So I had to be a woman and a mother.
Interviewer: Can we know the Resurrection?
Shri Mataji: Yes, that is the question. I would suggest that Christ has already said about me that I’ll be coming, no doubt. And if your read Bible carefully you’ll find in Saint John’s Revelations it’s already mentioned there. But I don’t want to talk about myself much because again people will start finding ways to crucify me. So I don’t want to say it. But this is a truth that if you want to find about me you can find out. First of all you get your realization and then you will know what I am, better is that way. If I tell you something now you might get after my life for nothing at all. So that is the only things human beings have so far done to all the saints, all the incarnations, all the prophets. As soon as they said that, “This is the truth.” they got after them.
But if there is somebody false they’ll just run after him. So a false person says, “There is a diamond. Now I give you a diamond.” There are these ashes; actually the ashes come from the burning fires of the cemetery. And they say, “Now, eat this.” They will have it because they are mesmerized. They will say, “Alright. I’ll give you light.” They break your Agnya chakra to give you some sort of a light in your head. People become mad after them; they give them money, everything. Alright.
There are some who would say, “I’m your guru. Now come along. This is the book of gurus, read it.” In the book is written, “Give away all your property, your wife, everybody to this guru.” Alright. So you give it. So that’s what they do, is to mesmerize you and tell you and take away everything from you.
But Sahaja Yoga is not like that. In Sahaja Yoga you have to become aware of everything and you have to know the reality. This is the big thing that one has to achieve.
Interviewer: I would request if there are some new questions for something else.
Interviewer 2: Surely we have.
Question: Were Greek and Roman deities true?
Shri Mataji: There were all deities there on the right side of what we call the Deva Loka; it’s the area where the gods live. Out of them …. But there is a difference between the gods and the goddesses and the deities. You see, there are no proper words in the English language to explain the difference. But these were just good people blessed by God who were leading a good life, sort of people, but good people, on the right hand side. They were the devas. And on the left hand side were the people who were called as ganas, who were doing the job of looking after the left side, like protecting you from negativities, protecting you from all the effects of the left side. So we had on one side the devas and on the other side the ganas. Now these devas were not the deities.
The deities are placed, they are absolute and they are placed on the chakras and they are fixed personalities. They know what they are supposed to do and they never deviate, they keep to their personality. They can understand, they can think, they can do what they like but they do what is their job. Like there’s a Deity, say for example of innocence. So his job is to spread innocence. When you awaken that Deity, that Deity spreads innocence. There is a Deity, say for example, for giving your protection or to give you a feeling of sense of security. Now this Deity does that work; that is in the Heart center in there. When this Deity, it’s the Mother of the Universe she’s called as, when she is upset by something – like a woman feels challenged of her motherhood – then this Deity feels upset and she sleeps off. If she sleeps off such a woman may suffer from cancer of the breast because she looks after that part. Like that, all these deities are absolute deities and were formed before and incarnated later.
Question: Our country is involved in psychology. Can you speak about this and especially the difference between Jung and Freud?
Shri Mataji: Oh, what a difference! One is, if Jung is light, Freud is darkness, ignorance, complete ignorance.
Freud as a person himself was a very perverted personality. He had very bad relationship with his own mother. Apart from that he was suffering from a kind of a hankering, it was very funny about him. And that’s what went wrong with him: that when he met all the pathological people, those who suffered from the pathology – means the attacks of the left side, pathos means suffering; so those who had those sufferings within themselves he met them and he talked to them; and by talking to them whatever he discovered he thought this is the basis of everything. In those days there were very few pathological cases and whatever they said cannot be a general idea. One person could be queer, funny, weird, could be absurd and could be also perverted. But only one can be like this. So there were very few people who were like this. But thanks to Freud now there are many who have become mad and funny, who have perverted brains, who think of all wrong things. Not only that but secondly what he did: he made the human beings into a sex point. As if you are just a sex point, you live for sex, nothing else. You have no other reasons to live. We are not animals, we are not to learn from animals; animals have to learn from us. So that is how he closed all the doors for ascent and as a result of his stupid proclamations and all that people accepted him. That’s the worst part of it. They accepted him more than they accepted Jung.
Jung, in London we have twelve some sort of Jung people there. Twelve only. And everybody is a Freudian surprisingly because he supported the weaknesses of the people. He said, “No, this is good. This is what you should do. And this is all due to a conditioning. Blame your father, blame your mother, blame everybody else.”, never-blame-yourself sort of a nonsense. And that was accepted so much as if he was more than Christ. They accepted him and they entered into very wrong things. And I’ve seen people from Freud when they come, they just start shaking before me. They are all schizophrenic people, they are not normal at all. And they can never take to Sahaja Yoga easily. They are so much wedded to this filth and dirt.
Jung was very different. Jung was his disciple and he found out that there is something definitely wrong with this because he’s making these pathological cases as a generalized thing. He went round, he went to India also, I was told, or maybe he studied Indian philosophy and he tried to understand. And he wrote about the mother also in there, that this is not, mother is a very sublime thing. He tried to say about the subconscious, the collective subconscious, all those things. And he received his realization and then he said that you have to become collectively conscious. You have to go into thoughtless awareness, this is what he talked about.
But he made one mistake, I think: that he did not understand that we are not made of layers. This is on the left hand side and the right hand side. Left hand side we have got our subconscious, collective subconscious. On the right hand side we have got our supraconscious and our collective supraconscious. But in the center is the real path to go up. That is the point where he made mistake. So many of his disciples started going to the subconscious to reach their unconscious. That’s not so. The unconscious, if it is the Kundalini, it rises like this and takes you to reality. So this is only the little mistake he committed but by which people have really, I mean the Jungians also don’t understand much about reality.
But we must say that Jung was definitely a very breaking point. But nobody liked him. And people told me that he is, he told us something very traditional. Of course, I mean, everything has to come out of something that is already there, living process. Like a tree grows up, in the same way it should be based on something; it cannot hang from somewhere. Because only sex things are plastic, coming out of the mind of a human being, just a projection and then you put as a thing something new.
We were having dinner with an ambassador and he was telling me, “Why are you against Freud?”
I said, “He’s nonsensical.”
“No, no, he gave us a new idea.”
I said, “What is the new idea he gave you?”
He said, “It was a very new idea about sex.”
I said, “Alright. Now this food you have eaten all the time. Alright? Why you have not eaten the table? It’s a new idea. Let’s have the table.”
It’s like this. So human mind is so stupid that it wants to take anything that is new but it doesn’t want to see if it is good for us or not. Like they said we must wear very tight close. Alright. It started from Paris; Paris emits all these ideas. All the people started wearing very tight cloths, so much that they could not get into the buses – they had to be lifted up, they couldn’t raise their feet. It was so horrid. Then they developed varicose veins, they developed heart troubles. So now we should wear absolutely lousy dresses. Lousy. So then you become lousy, lethargic. You see, you have to wear a dress according to the way you are. When you are sleeping you can wear a dress which is loose. But all the time if you are wearing a loose dress you go about like a lousy person, you cannot have any discipline in life and you cannot work out anything. So you have to be in the center, neither very tight nor very loose, but something in the center.
And human beings have no individuality of their own. Any fashion starts, everybody starts doing that. After some time everybody will look the same, there is no difference. Everybody wears the same type of a dress, wears the same type of hair, everything just the same. And these few enterprisers are actually making a fool out of all of them. They are putting something in the market, “Now, come along.” Now there is new thing that is coming, it’s a mini skirt. If you wear a mini skirt your legs will get paralyzed, absolutely. But they will do it, they’ll get paralyzed and then they’ll do [UNCLEAR].
Because these machines must sell. The machines are created and they must sell and the machine has to sell so they have to create new ideas. If they don’t create how these machines will sell? So they have to work on our weaknesses, they work on our weaknesses. Machines are for us, we are not for machines. If a machine is over-producing something, send it to other countries free. There are so many countries who need so many things. Why not send it over to them if your machine is over-producing? But no, they want to save it and take the money out of the same people. If they start charity about it, they can manage it. Get the machines produce more, whatever people need let them have, the rest you sell it. And come to some proper understanding of discretion when to take what.
Now a new fashion has started: not to eat salt, not to eat sugar. It’s nonsense. Till certain age when the child is growing you have to give salt and sugar to the child, it’s important. And then after some time when you are grown up to a certain age then you have to reduce it and after some time you have to give it up. But to begin with, you have to do it.
And these all kinds of new ideas some intellectual puts in and it becomes sort of, “Oh, I’ve read this book.” now stand to it. Any book you read is not a Bible, it’s not a shastra – it’s not a science. And now a scientist also joins in and he says, “It’s alright.” Then they’ll give you pampering you’ll have reaction, then they’ll give you sulphur you’ll have reaction, then they’ll …. Why experiment on human being like a guinea pig? Only because they want to assert themselves. It is not for the benefit, it’s not for benediction or for any benevolence of a person. They do not think of humanity as something which is to be saved or to be loved.
Everything they are producing and over-producing they want to sell it. But automatically they will be a recession, very soon. Already the markets are full. Nobody has money to buy or are fed up. I mean, you can have only one kitchen once in life. You cannot go on changing like Americans do. By their changing methods where are they? They are in debts. They have piles and piles of cloths [UNCLEAR]. What do they do with them? Poor things, they don’t know what to do. Now then they started producing so much of plastic. Plastic is produced, plastic, so much plastic. Now what will they do with the plastic? Plastic is giving them acid rains; because of acid rains the trees are destroyed; the trees are destroyed so all the water and the ice are flowing into the plains and people are having all kinds of havocs. Why do something so unnatural? All these things are for us, we are not for them.
Like now computers they have started. The computer should be such that we should be able to handle it – go to that limit, don’t over-cross it. If you put computer on top of your head it will control you. Tomorrow’s computer may destroy all of you, if it gets started. It’s not a human being. So you must put it in the maryadas, in the boundaries of everything.
That’s what human beings are: they always go to the extremes. And that’s why I say Jung has done a good work, him saying that, “Come to certain boundaries and see for yourself.” And he’s done really a good faith work for me because I can always mention him what he has said. But because he didn’t meet me and I cannot explain to him how he got his realization. Maybe that’s why he could not explain everything so well. But he has done a good faith work for us.
Question: Is there any connection with Mohammed Sahib and Sahaja Yoga?
Shri Mataji: Absolutely, hundred percent. Mohammed Sahib is a part and parcel of our being. He is a Deity who resides in this part we call, the green part as you see, means one of the Primordial Masters who incarnated on this Earth. And these are the days when, I mean it was a very difficult area he was born in, an extremely difficult area, horrible people, had no brains at all to understand God or anything. So he told them about God. It’s a very big work he did but still he was poisoned and he was in a way killed by them. He tried to solve many problems according to the times there: that there were tribes and they were fighting and very few people were left, men were left to marry. And he established a very good system that you must marry. You cannot have extra-marital relationship, you must marry. Marriage is very important. And for that people said, “Now, how can we marry? There are five women and one man.”
He said, “Marry five, it’s alright.”
“How can these young girls marry?”
“Alright, marry them. But marry them.”
Means take a sanction from God. Without marriage you should not have relationships. That’s what they established. But that doesn’t mean that even today you should do it. It was in those days necessary when there were left [few] men, it was to be done. But even now, those people who are Muslims think they have to do the same thing. God, he said at that time, “You don’t drink.” because at that time he knew about the drinks so he said you are not to drink. But today all the Muslims are smoking because he didn’t say about smoking. But there was no smoking problem in those days. Now, I am saying now that you don’t drink, don’t smoke and don’t take drugs. After this, you see, humans beings started hitting their heads with some hammers. So you will say Mother never said that don’t hit your head with a hammer. So we are doing it; it’s like this.
What Mohammed Sahib has done is the greatest work because he has talked about this Resurrection time, he has told that their hands will speak. When he has said about the future that this will happen to you that means he did not say that, “I am the concluding person.” That it has to happen later on. He indicated it so clearly. And so much he’s written about Resurrection. He indicated it so clearly that you have to become a peer, you have to become a realized soul. And then he has also said that such a time would come. When he talks of Isa that means that’s not him, he’s not finished. After that according to Muslim – nobody else.
Because it’s another sort of a fanaticism. So they all have fanatics whether you call them Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, anybody gather absolutely fanatic people; they’ve nothing to do with God. No doubt about it. That’s why there are fighting. If they had anything to do with God, if they were really enlightened as far as the religion is concerned, they would be not having so much problems: Hindus fighting Hindus, Christians fighting Christians, Muslims fighting Muslims, then the Christians fighting Muslims, Muslims fighting this thing, that thing. What is this? How can it be religious? These are supposed to be religious wars. Mostly religious sins these are and all these things are nothing but just falsehood. There is no truth in them. If there was, how can it be that a person who calls himself Christian, while Christ forgave those who crucify him, here they are taking revenge on others, killing them.
Especially the Christians, I would say, were the worst of all. Because, thanks God, this Columbus did not to India otherwise I would not have been here. All the people were finished by the great Christians in America and they are paying for it now. In the South America you can’t find anybody from there. Very few places. I think only, I founded it in Columbia. They say in Bolivia some are left in the hills. Otherwise everybody was finished very nicely by the so-called Christians.
Same about Hindus. Hindus are indulging also into all kinds of negative things, like they are getting to the spirits, this, that. How can they be religious people? Then the Sikhs are killing everybody; killing Hindus for whom Nanak Sahib had come to make a unity between the Hindu and Muslims. So he had fixed themselves, they are killing their own brothers and sisters. The eldest brother used to be the Sikh, in a Hindu family. So is this religion? How can you call it religion? They drink like fish, they eat all kinds of things and they lead a very bad life, they try to overpower everyone. How can they be religious? There is no religion at all.
Even the priests, the nuns, what are they doing, poor things, killing themselves for nothing at all? When did Christ say, “You should not marry?” He never said so. On the contrary he attended the weddings.
Now there’s a new thing started – I should say I don’t know when it was started, by whom – that we are all sinners. Who has said that? Christ never said so. If you are Christians you should not believe in all these stories you are all sinners. If you are all sinners why did he take away all our sins? Then to say that, “No, no. We are Christians so Christ has taken away our sins so we’ll be saved.” Not at all. He said, “You’ll be calling me ‘Christ, Christ'” – in the second Matthews, second chapter, second verse – “You’ll be calling me ‘Christ, Christ’, I won’t recognize you.” Clearly has said it; he knew all these things were going to happen. Also he has said another very good thing that, “Those who are not against me are with me.” Who are those? We should try to find out. He has told about the Holy Ghost. Everything he has told but people don’t want to talk about it and listen to it. Why don’t they try to find out who is the Holy Ghost that he has talked of? They would not because they are dishonest. It’s all money making proposition.
Even this Dalai Lama, he’s made so much money you’ll be surprised, he has so much gold with him. Christ, did he make any money? Did he live in palaces? He was a carpenter’s son; he lived like a poor man. If he was a king he would have lived like a king. It is not taking money from others and living like a lord, on other’s people money. It’s all wrong, absolutely wrong. And they have to pay for it. They have to pay for it.
Same with Protestants, same problem with them. I mean, nothing to choose with Protestants and these Seventh Day Adventists, the fight is whether God rested on Saturday or Sunday. What does it matter? And one of my relations wanted to join the Seventh Day so they told her, “You can’t wear any gold or anything.” And they told her, “You have to keep it out.” So she slept in the night, she took it and put it – in their ashram she was staying – and she put it in her drawer. Next day it was all missing.
Then there is another one – the Pentecostals, they are all possessed people. Then there is Charismatics – they are all possessed people. We have them with us, so many. They come to us; they are possessed. Is this God? God doesn’t possess you. And they say that, “We are like Christ disciples who had the Holy Ghost on them because we talk another language and we put the hands the same way.” They are all possessed people.
Actually what happened to Christ disciples was that they started talking the language of chakras as the Sahaja Yogis do. Nobody could understand what chakras are. And also they started using their hands because they had powers in their hands.
But these people get possessed and do all kinds of things wrong. We have lots of stories in India. We just don’t know whether to laugh or to cry with these Pentecostals. There was one Pentecost lady came from America and she went to a village. And in the village they declared that they all are Pentecostal, they all have got Holy Ghost on them. And they were really behaving like ghosts, they all used to get into themselves and they used to say, “Ho, ho, ho” and all that. But also for one fellow, who is a teacher here in the Pentecostal school. So they gave him a notice that, “You must get the Holy Ghost on you. If you don’t get it you’ll lose your job.” What is that? So he was just worried and said, “This is the last Sunday this has happened.” He just couldn’t help it, he was so nervous. So he just got into a fury, caught hold of that American old woman and started dancing with her – in a Marathi [UNCLEAR, yenge] – he just took her round and round and round and round, she used to faint there. And then they said, “Yes, the Holy Ghost is on you.” I don’t see how they believe this is God’s grace. Was Christ like that? We have Christ before us, one of the biggest things he is.
What surprises me that Christ was accepted in the West while he said, “Thou shall not have adulterous eyes.” to that subtlety he went: the innocence of that kind that your eyes have to be innocent. I’ve yet to come across anybody like that in the West, except for the Sahaja Yogis, that eyes are innocent. They are all the time looking at this, looking at that. The whole culture is against Christ. The women want to show their legs, want to show their bodies. What is this? They are like prostitutes, that’s what they are. I do not think this culture is coming from Christ, it is anti-Christ, absolutely, 100 percent.
But without realization you cannot also give up all these nonsensical things. We cannot force on them anything without realization. It has to work out in a realized way so that people themselves understand this is wrong and they should do the right things. I never force anything on anyone. But once they come to Sahaja Yoga and they get their realization they become masters of themselves they just drop all this nonsense. They have very steady eyes, they have very good eyes and they do not have all these problems.
I speak very frankly today, I’m feeling it. Because I think that the time has come for me to tell things very freely. No use hiding them because of fear of media. Because the media is the one who has come to this state today to spread Sahaja Yoga only. If they cannot spread Sahaja Yoga they are absolutely useless, they are good for nothing. They are giving all shocks to the world: somebody dies, somebody killed, some other thing has happened, this lady has married that man, she has run away with another man – all dirt, filth they give. But the main thing: they are there to spread the good news of Resurrection which was not available at the time of Christ, not available at the time of Shri Krishna. But today it is available; it is made available that they should know that the Resurrection time has come.
But I must say that the press in Italy and media in Italy has been extremely, extremely good and have been able to understand this is very remarkable, really. And it is incredible the way they have seen to the point that there is a power which we have to achieve. It’s something really incredible the way they have acted. So I am really thankful to them for that. Thank you.
29:57 [Shri Mataji talks to the Sahaja Yogis]
We can go now? We have to go to that land now and see for ourselves and then go home. You see, at one o’clock they close here. So we can come back. I will have [a rest] but how much time you think we need to go to that land? So we can go half an hour there and come back.
I like this very much. So what you call that? It’s the fig of the palm tree. We should get this. We don’t get them in England. We can buy somewhere. It’s very good for …
Alright. Good? Quite comprehensive. But they will say that you people asked the questions, we did not ask the questions or something, I don’t know. But never arrange a program in a hall, take it from me. They’ll never come.
I’ll tell you what is on their minds [the journalists]. You see, they think I am a saint. And saint never goes anywhere. They are supposed to come and see me. The Pope will not come here, will he? Though he is not a saint. So always you answer, “She is a saint. She doesn’t go anywhere.” Then they’ll come. This is the point.
You’ll be surprised, I was in Kashmir. The Governor of Kashmir was my husband’s boss, because my husband was a younger officer, he was a very senior boss. So he wrote to us that, “You must come with the bride here.” and all that, so we went to Kashmir. And we’re staying there, in his guest room and all that. And one day I saw him early in the morning; he has taken his bath and he was coming, walking. So I said, “Why did you come walking?” He has just come in a car. He came and touched my feet [UNCLEAR]. He sat on the ground. He said, “No, here I have not come to Mrs. Srivastava. I’ve come here for the saint. And for a saint, you have to walk to the saint.”
Even in London. I didn’t want to say this but it’s a fact. In London there was a lady who was amazed at the way we were curing people from the Health Ministry. And she the Advisor to the Health Minister. So she wanted to see me in the office. I said, “I will not go.” My husband said, “Why should you go? It is alright if you go as Mrs. Srivastava but as a saint she has to come here, to your house.” She came there. She came there.
So never they will stop for my program. They will come for others because they are money makers, they put money into her, this is done to make more money, this … They cannot understand anybody who is saintly, who is putting money to, sort of, spread good news like this.
There were treating me like any other Rajesh is there. It’s not the first time. I’ve told many a times, I’ve told this to America, I’ve told in England, I’ve told everywhere that to invite me you have to tell them to come home and see me. Must be doing this. She is a saint and she cannot come to you. Alright?
No, that’s alright. I should have told you but I told her nobody will come. I predicted it long time back, nobody will come.
We didn’t even have half a word with them. [the journalists in Austria] But there media is horrible. The media here is good. They themselves wanted to see me and all that, no doubt. But I told her, “They will never come.” Because they sit down and think about it, “She is a saint then why should we go to her hotel? Why should she call us?” Even if I take coca-cola they can’t understand.
Then let it be, then doesn’t matter. You just stopped it, “Alright, then don’t come.” If they can’t come means they are not committed. You should not show your necessity to go to them. After all, if I am a saint why should I bother about anything?
Even now, you should write to them, “None of you come. We are thankful to you because Mataji never came. She is a saint. She came very late and she said, ‘I know, I don’t want to meet them.'” or like that. Something like that, something to tell them off, little bit then they will be alright. We must kick on their ego.
You see, first I never used to allow anyone to advertise. They wanted to put posters, in the beginning. Then gradually I allowed them, slowly, slowly when I found there are people who are good enough, like that. It should be, you people, also the awareness of this world is growing up and better, and better. They’ve coming up better. So as you are growing they are also growing with you and so things are improving. But still the time has not come to meet them in a hotel.
I told them. At least three times I told them. “Why do you waste your money?” I said.
And she was sure, so sure, “No, no, Mother, they want it. They told us. Many a times they said, ‘We’ll come.'” She told me all that. I said, “All that is true. But nobody will come.”
Yesterday you’ve seen. They were there, they were there for one and a half hour. And they scented that, “She is a saint and we must respect her.” They were waiting for me there though we were late. You see, we had to warn them and all that. And then they were waiting for us. Not only waiting. In the hall he was waiting till they asked questions, till I gave them realization. That’s the real type that they understood what is saintliness.
That’s how you should show. That’s how you should see that they are put up to it, their ego is challenged. If you make it so cheap they will never understand.
Not to feel disappointed at all, not to feel bad because it’s a common experience of mine.