"Whatever is not on the tape you should not listen to. Whatever is on the tape is authentic." - Shri Mataji, Vienna, 25 July 1989.
Press interview with Molden in Melichargasse Ashram. Vienna (Austria), 8 June 1988.
Shri Mataji: I was living with him (Ed: Mahatma Gandhi) from the age of seven years quite a time and certain things of course he realized in Me perhaps. And he was a very kind person, to children especially, but a very great disciplinarian. To himself and to others also, but with children he was very kind and I used to meet him quite often. But My parents both were with him. And My father went to jail many a times, My mother went to jail. And I too took a very dynamic role when I was very young – about 18 years of age. 18, 19 in 1942-movement. And I organized lots of things when they were all in jail. My father was in jail, Mahatma Gandhi was in jail. And we organized young people, organized many things by which we could oppose the government, because they were – all the leaders were in jail, and even My mother was in jail. So we young people decided to organize a protest and we were put to lot of harassment – specially Me – they were against Me very much. But I don’t want to say much against the English, because now they are different people. So that time is over now.
And Gandhiji’s work was – actually after 1942 he took another turn. Because we were expecting our freedom, you see, ‘Quit India’ movement was successful and the English decided to leave us. So he said that we should take to more constructive work and not to politics. He asked congressmen to take to constructive work. But they had to enter into politics. And My father was the member of the Constituent Assembly. He was a member of the minority committee, because I was born in a Christian family.
Mother also was a very dynamic person, she was honors of mathematics in those days. (Shri Mataji laughing) And she also took a very dynamic part, she was the President of the congress in a province.
Interviewer: What province was that?
Shri Mataji: Province was central – it was called that time as Central Province, C. P., central province. So, I grew up with all that struggle – Myself.
Interviewer: And was there a point, when You as a child realized that, I mean politically and in the whole development – big things were going on?
Shri Mataji: Going wrong.
Interviewer: The fight of Gandhi against the – the non being independent, for the independence and because there had to be a lot of political discussions. Then did You take part? Did You listen to them?
Shri Mataji: Very much.
Interviewer: As a child?
Shri Mataji: At the 7 years I gave a lecture, (Shri Mataji laughing & laughter) when Gandhiji has fasted, you see, for 63 days he fasted and all that – for the untouchables, you see, we have a funny thing, a cast system in India. So he had fasted and My father took Me to a very mammoth meeting of – I think, 20 thousand people and he had to go back home, because somebody got sick in the house. He was a very great speaker, so they wouldn’t allow him to go. He said, “All right, my daughter will speak for me.” And I spoke. (Laughter)
Interviewer: What did you say?
Shri Mataji: I said very sweet things. I said, you see in India we have marriages of the dolls. So I said that, “See, in dolls there is no cast system. Why should we have cast system?” And I said that, “We have to now celebrate the wedding of dolls and all of us have to come and attend. And we all should forget our cast system and should sit together and enjoy the marriage of the dolls.” In My own small way, you see, in a childish way, but they all enjoyed it. And I said that, “We are human beings.” At that time also I did say that we are reflections of one truth, which we should take to.
Interviewer: Was there, I mean, that time together with Mahatma Gandhi, was there one thing You remember that he said to You?
Shri Mataji: Oh – so many.
Interviewer: [Requesting now ?]
Shri Mataji: So many things.
Interviewer: Important thing that You would mention now?
Shri Mataji: First of all what impressed Me the most was his own discipline, he’s such a disciplined man himself, you see. He got up at 5 o’clock, make everybody get up at 5 and, you see, and we had to walk in the darkness to go for the prayers. There were lots of snakes moving around, you see. So people used to be worried, you see. So he said, “As long as you are sincere in your efforts to achieve your freedom no snake will bite you.” (Shri Mataji laughing) And really nobody was hurt by any snake. But the thing that has given Me a great strength from him was this – I was not a very – I mean, I’m not so money-oriented, I didn’t understand money much, you see, from My childhood and even now I’m not so good at it. For example I don’t understand economics and economic values. But what I learned from him that the sense of honesty he had for public money was very remarkable – for public money.
One day they were having a meeting in our ashram, it was Gandhiji’s ashram. I was there and many great leaders of India were there. But the wife of Mahatma Gandhi had gone out somewhere. We called her Kasturbai. And the time was up for lunch. So Mahatma Gandhi said that, “You better have your lunch here all of you. You should have lunch here.” So, he got up himself because his wife was not there. He opened the store room with his key and counted how many people there were. I don’t know where he learned all this, but he did count and measure the food, measured all the grains that were there. Took about 15 minutes. So all the leaders felt very guilty about it. So one of them said, “Bapu,” – Bapu means father, “you should have not bothered, we would gone and had lunch. You took so much time to do it. You need not have bothered, you could have told somebody to do it.” So the sentence he said, “These grains are the blood of my country. I can’t allow it to be spilled out or wasted.”
Another thing was that she was very public spirited, he was always worried about others. So his wife used to go to the well and take out the water from the well – always. She was a small, little [pettied] lady. So one day I told her, “Why not allow Me to take out the water, every time why must you do it?” She said, “You are too small for doing this.” But the thing she said later on was this that, “Bapu has told me, ‘You must always draw the water, because it will remind me of the people in Rajasthan who haven’t got water there. I’m always worried about them and you should do something to dig wells in Rajasthan.'”
And we had a very great prime minister for a short time, called Lal Bahadur Shastri. He was in the image of Mahatma Gandhi, I would say – quite a lot. And he remembered his words. And he was so much worried that we need not have big plants just now, but let us supply water to the people of Rajasthan. You see, so much anxious about it that, “You have big plants then you have to do this, you have to do that. By that time so many people will die of thirst and hunger.” A very practical and matter of fact gentleman was Mahatma Gandhi.
That’s why I – one of these nice things is this that there was one very big lawyer. And there also he was leader. And there was a case to be fought in the court of law against the revolutionary. But the revolutionary had no money. So one king Baroda, king from Baroda he paid money to this lawyer. So Mahatma Gandhi when he heard about it, he wrote a letter – himself he used to write – on a post card, “Whatever money you have taken from the king of Baroda please return that money immediately, or don’t show me your face.” No compromise on anything. The fellow got a fright of, you see, this whole man is going to jeopardy – my whole reputation. He got such a fright, you see. (Shri Mataji laughing) He just went and returned the money. There are so many things, I mean, say, I was so close to him –
Interviewer: And the king was angry?
Shri Mataji: Of Baroda, Baroda – B, A, R, O, D, A. He was a very nationalistic man – king of Baroda. Was another great man that time. Many great people were born in those days – very great people of great character – sacrifices. How much they sacrificed. When I look at My parents – they gave up everything, everything that they had. We used to live in huge, big palace-like houses and then in huts. We had no money for our education – all kinds of problems. And struggled and struggled. But it’s worked out.
Interviewer: After Gandhi was murdered –
Shri Mataji: Yeah?
Interviewer: – what did you and your family do afterwards?
Shri Mataji: Actually I met him one day before he died.
Interviewer: And how was that meeting?
Shri Mataji: Oh – tremendous. I had one daughter at that time. He used to call Me as Nepali, because I have high cheek bones, (Shri Mataji laughing) so he used to call Me Nepali – means ‘from Nepal’. Just to tease Me. And immediately, after many years I met him – really, because I was married and – but immediately he recognized. Called Me and he said, “Meet me after prayer.” When I met him, he saw My daughter – very happy and he said, “Now take to constructive work, take to constructive work.” And next day he was murdered. I was living just close to his place where he was living. Next day I did not go – but something was there, and I heard the shot.
Interviewer: And when You got the message that he was murdered, what changed for You, I mean – what – immediately?
Shri Mataji: At that time I was just stunned, I mean, I was just stunned. I couldn’t believe it. Stunned for a while. But the change was that, “Now I have to start My own mission.”
Interviewer: So mission – Your mission, which You are still carrying on now that started on the day Mahatma Gandhi was killed?
Shri Mataji: No, not that way. I would say that I was born like this from My childhood and Gandhiji knew about it, he knew about Me. But I had to take some time, because it’s a very different work. It’s not the work outside, but inside human beings. And I had to study many human beings to find out what is their problem in their seeking. Why do they fall? To study different people, first of all to find out what was their problem. Actually before freedom there was no use – there wouldn’t have been no use talking about God, isn’t it? First you must have your own freedom. Even to talk about God was not [coveted].
Interviewer: How would You describe a man’s own freedom?
Shri Mataji: Man’s own freedom comes when he becomes himself. When he becomes the Spirit. So there is no bondage of the body or of the mind or of any other influences, because you know the absolute truth on your central nervous system. You don’t say, “I believe,” you don’t say – it is.
And that is where human beings have gone wrong. How they started all kinds of ideologies, it’s all ‘I believe’-ideologies, you see – they are not absolute. And they are going now to the extremes. Every ideology is reaching its extreme. Every religion is reaching its extreme. In a way good – it’s a good thing, then you see for the follies, you see what’s wrong. You see the point? (Shri Mataji laughing)
Shri Mataji: Otherwise human beings are difficult things, you know. They are not so easy. They only learn through experience.
Interviewer: When did You start to – I heard and I read about You, that You are living in a totally normal family. You are married, You have two children, two grandchildren.
Shri Mataji: Yeah.
Interviewer: But You – at least in the western world from the people who know You, they treat You like a saint. (Shri Mataji laughing) And as I heard in India as well – some people. And how can you bring that together – I mean, the normal life of a Mother, of a wife – with Your other life?
Shri Mataji: You see, the idea is wrong that a saint has to run away from the family, from – it’s absolutely wrong. You are escapist, if you run away. (Laughter) I won’t call them a saint. (Shri Mataji laughing) All the great saints in India were married people. Except for few who had a very short life, like Christ’s life. And they are a different category of saints. But marriage is very important. And the collective sanction to marriage is very important – it’s not arbitrary. Because actually we are collective beings. Though in our ignorance we talk of individual, but we are collective beings, part and parcel of the whole.
Interviewer: When did You start to travel around, talking about Sahaja Yoga and talking about Your ideas and about the energy [ … ] and all that things?
Shri Mataji: Actually I waited for some time till about 1970 to see a momentous time when, what we call the seventh center is to be opened out as we say. This is the center of Christ and this is the seventh center, which has to be opened out. And that I did on the 5th of May 1970.
Interviewer: And all of a sudden, you know, You had to [inaudible]?
Shri Mataji: Yeah, I mean, you see, it’s rather a subtle thing within you. And to work it out within Myself how this awakening can be done en-masse. It’s a very subtle thing, you see, like – I mean, if I tell you know it would be not so easy, but it’s a very subtle happening like a computer – if you tell Me I won’t understand, something like that. So it’s a very subtle thing I had to work out that I could awaken the Kundalini of many people together. But to begin with I started with one lady first, then twelve. Twelve has something to do, I think. (Shri Mataji laughing) And in a very slow pace, very slow pace. But within two years’ time they spread quite a lot in India. India is quite a ready place for this – especially in the villages, not in the city. Because village people are extremely simple and very much there. They know what is Kundalini, they know all about it, and they’re just waiting for someone. They know about the prophecies made in India thousands of years back. That such and such thing is going to happen and that Kundalini is going to be awakened and this Sahaja Yoga, who is going to come – and all that. So it’s already – they were prepared. But I mean westernized, who have been in Oxford, Cambridge, you see. (Shri Mataji laughing)
Interviewer: They forgot about it or they couldn’t [wait]?
Shri Mataji: Oh, they didn’t know, they didn’t know, I mean, they became westernized, so they don’t even respect their parents, they don’t respect – they think all Indian knowledge is nonsense. I think Germans paid more attention to Indian knowledge than Indians themselves. Yes.
Interviewer: You said You started in the villages?
Shri Mataji: Yes, more in the villages, also in Bombay city, in Bombay city. Because My husband was there. And first thing I did was to go to Iran, because My brother was there. And there I started Sahaja Yoga. But those Sahaja Yogis are lost now, you know the situation. And then My husband got elected to this post. Does he know about My husband – no?
Yogi: Yes, Shri Mataji, we told a little bit.
Interviewer: I don’t know exactly what he does in the United Nations, but I know he’s a long term…
Shri Mataji: He’s a Secretary General. There are 14 Secretary Generals in the U.N., one of them was Waldheim for political side, and My husband is for International Maritime Organization. And he got elected, so I went to London.
Interviewer: And that was in 19 – ?
Shri Mataji: 1973. But you know English how they are. (Shri Mataji laughing) But they are very hard nuts, I should say, but if you can crack them, they are very deep – very deep. I worked on seven of them for four years. In between I used to go to India, of course. And some of them had become hippies, very well educated, you see, all Cambridge, Oxford. They cracked down.
Then I met one gentleman from Switzerland – was tremendous. And he was travelling, say he came to Austria, then he went to other places, and he started Sahaja Yoga here. In Rome he was, in Switzerland. Also France there was another one from one of these seven ones. She went down and so it started. The only problem in Sahaja Yoga is that it’s a living process. You cannot brand somebody as Sahaja Yogi, you have to become, becoming is the point. You understand the living process is something like a sprouting of the seed. The Mother Earth is there, the seed is ready and you put the seed in the Mother Earth – it sprouts spontaneously. ‘Spontaneous’ is the word for Sahaj.
Interviewer: And the first step of the process – from what I heard is to become your self, to find your – to open up this – ?
Shri Mataji: Yes, it is when we say to become, there is effort involved – this is effortless – you become, effortlessly. You cannot pay for it. You cannot be a member. It has to work, that’s all. To give a simple example you can say any instrument, now we made this instrument (Ed: microphone) it has to be connected to the mains, that’s all. It’s as simple as that. Is already there, provided for all. So this is the Kundalini we can say, which is now connected to the mains. That’s all. And it has to be very simple. And is, because it is so vital.
Interviewer: What is the purpose that You try to bring that knowledge to the Western world, travel around to tell the people?
Shri Mataji: Yeah, the purpose is this: for Me East and West doesn’t exist. The Western world has got the knowledge, say of the tree – but not of the roots. And they’re seeking for their roots, but outside. If they do not get the knowledge of the roots they’ll be destroyed.
Interviewer: You say You try to show them the roots?
Shri Mataji: Yes, I must give them that knowledge if I have. As you have some knowledge, say of science you would like to give it to Eastern world, in the same way I should give this otherwise they’ll be destroyed. Is My concern. It’s not that only the Western should be concerned about the Eastern. But Eastern should be also concerned about the Western, because they are complimentary to each other.
Interviewer: That’s another kind of aid to develop.
Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon?
Interviewer: It’s another kind of development aid that You give?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course. (Laughter) Different kind of – ?
Yogi: Development aid. (Shri Mataji laughing)
Shri Mataji: Yes – true. Because we need nourishment. And for that nourishment we have to go to our roots. That is very much neglected in the West.
All western endeavours were based on certain principles. But principles are lost. And sort of everybody has become malignant, arbitrary. So, integrate them, they have to be nourished.
Interviewer: Another thing I would like to ask You is about if You are in newspapers here in Austria or in Germany it’s a lot connected with Your healings, the healings that You did for the – it’s called in medicine, it’s unbelievable that someone can heal –
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes.
Interviewer: Cancer or AIDS just with his hands.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Interviewer: Now, what I want to ask You, I heard there is a simple principle with what You can heal all diseases and illnesses.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Interviewer: Could You describe that principle?
Shri Mataji: That principle is called in the medical terminology as Parasympathetic nervous system. As you know we have autonomous nervous system within us. Who is this ‘auto’? This ‘auto’ is the Spirit.
We develop physical diseases, mental diseases, spiritual diseases, because we start working our left or right sympathetic nervous system. Because we create emergencies in life, everything becomes an emergency, you see. And it is like this, you can say, these are the subtle centers. And this is the left and this is the right side. And from the subtle centers the energy flows to the left or to the right. Now if you start using too much of this energy – and this is connected with the whole – then what happens? They get exhausted and shrink. And then the connection is lost. That’s how you get diseases at different centers.
So these centers cannot be cleansed unless and until you allow your residual energy – Kundalini to be awakened.
Interviewer: To flow through.
Shri Mataji: Yes, it’s – sort of – like the beads, you see. It passes through all the beads like that.
Interviewer: So, but that means – You said we create emergencies.
Shri Mataji: Yeah.
Interviewer: Because of that the connection gets lost.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Interviewer: That means the roots for the disease is the lifestyle – how you live.
Shri Mataji: Yes also, and we depend either on our mental capacity – we have only mental capacity or emotional capacity. We don’t have spiritual capacity.
Shri Mataji: And we try to – even for Yoga people do all kinds of nonsense. They’ll cut their tongues, they’ll stand on their heads, they’ll put nails into their body, I mean, (Shri Mataji laughing) every sort of thing they’ll try. And they’ll stand on their legs – and all kinds of things they’ll do. Stand on their heads, thinking that with the weight the Kundalini will rise, you see. (Laughter) It’s an energy, an energy of pure desire. And the purest desire we have is that we want to become the Divine. And when this awakens that desire gets fulfilled. And all other desires are not pure.
They said that in general wants are not satiable, in economics, you see, in general they are not satiable – why? Because they are not desires. They are like a mirage – you run after one thing, today you want to have a car, then tomorrow you want to have an aeroplane, then third day you want to have something else, goes on and on and on.
Interviewer: I have one last question.
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, ask – any amount. (Laughter)
Interviewer: And that is the way how You are accepted in the Western world, I mean, I talked with You before about that, when You come here to Austria, You are sitting like on a throne, You have beautiful –
Shri Mataji: They have done it, not Me. (Laughter)
I can sit on the ground. I can sit in the jungles.
Interviewer: I know, these pictures, I mean these pictures which are put in the newspapers and who are sent maybe on TV they show You like that. And that makes the impression of You being – like Guru, like the one who also takes the money and who has a big, like youth religion. Have You been confronted with this opinion towards You? Being like on of them?
Shri Mataji: You see, it is – I leave it to them, I mean, they take photographs, I don’t know what they take. And it’s not such a publicity stunt, you know. I see, this is all publicity stunts, these people, the gurus. Actually, in My own lifestyle – I come from a royal family, Myself. My husband comes from a very rich family himself. You know My husband is highly placed in life. And I live in a much more lavish way than I live here. Must say that. What can I do? I was born like this. If I was born like a carpenter’s son, as Christ was – I’m quite happy, I can live in the jungles, I can live anywhere. So, this is the lifestyle I have already, and they out of their love took flowers and things. So, I don’t want to say ‘No’ to them – what’s wrong in flowers?
So, this – you see, these people do publicity stunts. Because they are not sincere, they are not honest. I must say I have very much better [sofas than these are], don’t I – in My house? (Laughter)
Very expensive carpets, I think I have Persian carpets, this that. So – and so many things I also give them. So many things, presents I give them, so many things. So, it’s not to just please someone or to give a picture or to impress – not. Better to be presented as I am, make them accept the reality. It is not that you make up something like an actress, you see, some want Me to look like an actress. Some want Me to look like a Dalai Lama, with all wrinkles, you see, on My face. Some think I am a very happy person, so I must be an Ignoramus. Specially in France – first where I went they said, “Mother, You should never say that You are happy and joyous. You should say that You are miserable.” I said, “Why?” “Because all the French are miserable.” So I started My lecture with ‘Les Miserables’. I said, “You’ll be miserable in any case, because the kind of life you have – the style of life you are using – every night you must have your visit to the pubs and all that. And then you must have ten women in your lifetime and all kinds of problems you have, apart from that you always quarrel, fight, see only war pictures. How can you be happy? You have shut your eyes to all that is joy. See the nature, the beauty. So, you have to be miserable, but I am not. So it’s not – we don’t want to put any picture like that, because they’ll be shocked tomorrow. When they will see Me in My – another style they’ll be shocked. So I don’t want to be hypocrite.
They have gained all this through their publicity, they have publicity department, you know, all these false people, publicity – because they earn money and they make publicity department. They have televisions, this that, you see. And in the beginning I would not even allow them to put My posters. I said, “Forget it. Just now let us have some more Sahaja Yogis.”
So one has to be genuine and honest about it. And I believe that unless and until we take to proper, sensible married life they are not going to be happy people. That’s why I got married. That’s why I’ve children, I have grandchildren.
( …part 2 – Ed: perhaps missing question… )
Shri Mataji: I’m very happy you are so receptive. You see, I had to do good to people here. Specially in Austria and Germany I feel people – young people are under attack, absolutely under attack. Because they are so sincere, so – they are so thorough, very much, specially Germany, I think is very much under attack. So all kinds of things, you see such an assault from negativity. Now when I see the young generation in London, only in the south-east of London children below twelve years are taking to drugs – very serious type. Below twelve years of age. While there is so much of child abuse, every day you read at least ten cases of child abuse. I mean, just look at what we are becoming – worse than animals sometimes. You know, so many things that are happening in the West. You see the AIDS – I told them in America, “You’ll get AIDS.” I told them about the new disease that is this paralysis coming now. But they won’t listen to Me.
Interviewer: When did you tell them?
Shri Mataji: 1973 – 74, I am sorry, 74.
Interviewer: And how did you know? I mean. (Laughter)
Shri Mataji: I know that. See, I know the end result of what they were doing. So obvious. And it’s all a mental sort of a – mental ego. “What’s wrong?” They’ll all say, “What’s wrong?” This thing – they have started this coloring their hair with some sort of a dye. So I asked them, “Why do you do that, because your eyes are becoming weak with that.” So they said, “What’s wrong? We want to be blind. How can you stop us?” And they’ve become blind now – what to do? (Shri Mataji laughing) You see, you can’t tell them anything. They don’t like it. In San Francisco you’ll be surprised – the media refused to even publish an advertisement – put an advertisement. Because in the thing they had written that it helps you to overcome your homosexuality. They were very angry. And they said, “What?” He said, “We are all homosexuals here. And we don’t want to listen to You.” It’s a possession, homosexuality is a possession. Just a possession. And if you’re cured you become very normal. Over-sexuality is also possession and non-sexuality is also possession. These are all abnormal things.
And it can be helped, you see, over night people have given up drugs, you will be surprised, over night. Over night they gave up drugs, alcohol – over night. I never tell them, “Don’t do this,” because half of them would run away from the program, (Shri Mataji laughing) but it just happens to them. They just give up. It’s like –
Interviewer: After a big public meeting with You – or?
Shri Mataji: No, after getting Realization. You know it’s something very simple, it’s like supposing you’re holding a snake in your hand. I tell you, “Throw it away.” You won’t throw. If it is dark you can’t see, you will think it’s a rope. “No, I think it’s a rope, I’m not going to listen to You,” and you’ll hold it tighter. As soon as the light comes in you throw it away. So you wouldn’t like to walk in My light, you would like to have your own light. That’s the best way. So I make you your own Guru. You don’t need any gurus at all. (Laughter) He is now, he is a Guru himself, you should see how knowledgeable he is. Ask him, they are so knowledgeable – are they? Those people, who go to gurus only empty their purses and empty their heads also. They have no knowledge.
Interviewer: So, Your function is to switch on the light?
Shri Mataji: That’s all. Simple – you have seen the point. (Laughter)
Switch on the computer and the light and everything is within you. And that too – there is no
obligation. It’s just like one candle which is enlightened can enlighten many other candles, it’s something simple like that. He can give Realization to so many. He can cure people, he can talk better than Me, perhaps to you. (Laughter)
Interviewer: So when do you think there is a point – will there be a point and You stop travelling around and you think there are enough candles You already lit, [say like this]?
Shri Mataji: I don’t know, but according to a prophecy, one crore among – ond crore is – 100’000? One crore? One lakh is ten thousand, 100’000, 100 hundred thousand, 100 hundred thousand – there will be one person in the beginning. But I don’t think of the future, Just now I’m still all right. I’m now 65 years of age, I’m quite all right. Still I can work, I should work [hard].
Interviewer: You travel all over the world? Or is there something You don’t go to? You go to the Eastern countries like Russia?
Shri Mataji: Russia I’ve been, of course. Russia I’ve been. Russia will take to Sahaja Yoga in no time. They’ll take to Sahaja Yoga in no time. It’s very easy, because they’re fed up with the –
Yogi: And there is Sahaja Yoga in Russia.
Shri Mataji: Already started, already started, already started. And another is China. Chinese are very wise people, they’ll take to Sahaja Yoga in no time.
With My husband I’ve been to all these countries many a times. I’ve also – I’ve been to Chile and Bolivia. Bolivia there we have lots of Sahaja Yogis – Bolivia. And Argentina. America is the most difficult place, I think. They’re rather idiotic people. (Laughter) Little idiotic, you know. To much of ‘I’ makes you idiotic, you can’t see point. All the false gurus have settled in America. All of them have gone and settled. And it’s a very – sort of a [psychopath-fancy] with them. You go in a party – because I have to attend the other side also – and they talk, “Have you been to such a guru? He is very expensive, but very good.” They talk like that. Now, very educated, good people they talk like that. As they must have a psychiatrist, they must also have a guru. So they go to guru, get problems and go to psychiatrist. (Laughter)
But I am expecting a very big change there, as it has already happened in Russia, there will be a very big change in America. I’m sure.
Gone thoughtless. (Shri Mataji laughing) No thoughts. That [should be last]. (Laughter)
Interviewer: Oh my God! I’m very [happy].
Shri Mataji: He got it. He’s got his Realization. Got it. May God bless you!
What’s your name?
Interviewer: My name is Ernst Molden.
Shri Mataji: Is there some meaning? Does it mean something?
Interviewer: It means, usually there is – like an area at the Black Sea, in Romania now, which is called Moldawa. Now it is called Moldau. Has nothing to do with the river in Prague, but with that area at the Black Sea. That’s where my [ancestors] come from. [Inaudible] Nobody knows it. [Inaudible]
Shri Mataji: I see.
Yogi: And, Shri Mataji, ‘Ernst’ means serious.
Interviewer: [Inaudible] (Laughter)
Shri Mataji: Inside I’m very serious, I think, inside. Sometimes situations are very serious and precarious, you know. If Sahaja Yoga is established, then you can live in a very wonderful world of peace and harmony and joy. Even the children in Sahaja Yoga I’ve seen, they will come and sit down with Me as if we’re having a cabinet meeting. And they’ll tell Me about everyone of them, and what they’re up to. And they will never quarrel among themselves. I never seen them pulling anybody’s hair, beating anyone – they are so sweet. Very surprising. Such love. Now here we have people from so many countries, just now. It’s such love and such feeling for each other. Just innate understanding, because you become collectively conscious, you become – which you are. Becoming collectively conscious is the point, this is the breakthrough. I would say this is the epitome of your evolution. This is the epitome, where you have to reach. Jung has talked about it. Jung – was he German?
Yogi: He was Swiss, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Swiss, Swiss. Jung has talked about it. For a Swiss to talk like that is a frightening thing. (Laughter) Swiss – oh God. Swiss are another race. Busy making money out of banks. Very difficult, very money-oriented.
Interviewer: Is there any country You like to go to most?
Shri Mataji: Go to most? Which one? I don’t know. (Laughter) India, of course. India, because, you see, My family is there, you know that from all those points of view. But otherwise apart of India – I went to France a many times, I think, France. Because that was the gate of hell. France was very badly out. France I went many times. Maximum I think, My journey was to France. That’s different now, France is very different. There are very nice beautiful people, so many of them. Beautiful. Beautiful young people, you see. They see it now so clearly. It’s the young, who are going to see it. See, old are so difficult and they can’t understand it – can’t understand. They don’t want to change also, they have given up. If you got to France in Paris you’ll find most of them sitting outside on the roadside. So they were talking something. So I asked another Sahaja Yogini, “What they are talking?” She said, “They are waiting for eight stars to meet, so the whole world gets destroyed.” They were only waiting for that. (Shri Mataji laughing) Just imagine. They have no hopes, no hopes.
Interviewer: Did you have success with changing old people. I mean, that You…
Shri Mataji: Now, of course, I mean there so many old people also.
Interviewer: So they’ve finished up and they [inaudible].
Shri Mataji: Of course, we have many old people also in Sahaja Yoga, not that we don’t have. But you see, the lifestyle is such that in the West old people do not mature, you see, in a natural way. They do not mature. Like a fruit has to mature, you see, when it grows – maybe. So they do not mature. They want to remain young – immature. America is the worst. America is the worst one. 80 year old people – actors and actresses, would like to dress up like 14 year old people. And they go for a shake dance, when they’re already shaking. (Laughter)
And that’s why the young people have no respect for them. You know, they are not matured. Of course we have many old people in Sahaja Yoga, very wonderful people, no doubt. But I would say that – I don’t know, because of war, whatever it is, the people have not matured as they should have. Indian people are different, Indian old are very matured – young are not. Young are just copying you, here in the West. You see, if you color your hairs, they will also color. If you wear jeans, they’ll wear jeans. If you make holes in your pants, they’ll make holes like you. They don’t know why you do it. So Indian young people are not so good.
Yogi: Shri Mataji, may I say something in this context? Because we discussed it once. And the reason we found out was that they are over-emphasizing sexuality. And then you are getting older – of course it goes down, but it is so important – everybody wants to stay young. It’s one of the reasons why we don’t want to become old and be proud that they are old and wise.
Shri Mataji: Of course, I mean, you know, that’s not the only job you have got to do.
Yogi: I know, but this stupefies the mind.
Shri Mataji: We are not only sex points, you see. I mean, we are much more. I mean, any animal can do it, earthworms and everybody. (Laughter) What is so great about it? In India, I think, they are experts, the way we are producing children. But here, I don’t know, it has become like a – sort of a big ordeal, or something. I don’t know what is there so great about it? It’s a very natural thing. Because you think about everything, you know. Even going to the bathroom you think ten times. What is there to think? Go and have your bath – finished. So that’s everything you start thinking about, you see, then everything becomes – anything that is natural becomes so difficult.
And so such a tendency towards, you see, becoming natural also. They want to become natural also. And they don’t know that their brain has become artificial. So to take to natural things you have to become a Realized Soul, otherwise you cannot. This brain is so modern. You see, like one boy had hairs, you see, all full of lices, this and that. So I said, “What are you doing? Why don’t you comb you hair?” He said, “Because I want to be a seeker. ” I said, “You are, you don’t have to announce like this. You look like a primitive man.” He said, “I want to be primitive.” I said, “You cannot, your brain is so modern – by wearing these things you are not going to become primitive. Your brain has to become natural – spontaneous.” That’s what it is. That now we have gone too far into our mental expressions and mental projections. We have to come back a little bit. But that’s not necessary. In Sahaja Yoga you’ll do it. There, you just do it. You just do it, you see.
I was telling them yesterday I met a lady and she came to Me. She had brought a letter telling Me what all she did. I was shocked, you know. I mean, as if she went to hell hundred times and came back. Said, “Wawa, what a person she is.” I said, “All right, I’ll try.” The Kundalini came up, she got her Realization. Say, about eight days later I met her at the airport, I was coming, so she came to see Me off. I couldn’t recognize her. She was a changed person. Absolutely changed. Just works. That’s your mother. Kundalini is your Mother. She works it out.
That’s what I’m saying, we should find out our roots – very important. And absolute, the point that is absolute. It’s all relative, we live in a relative world. That’s why people take to fashions, you see. I mean, today once a fashion starts, so as one entrepreneur has put something forward they do it. Then they suffer. So they’ll start another fashion. Every day they turn you – all the time, according to their own wishes and these enterprizes that they have. People go on changing from one to another, one to another, like mad. They’ve no roots.
In India, supposing they tell ladies, “Don’t wear your saris.” “Oh, tell us another, we know this is the best dress for us. No, nothing doing.” They won’t listen.
Interviewer: But isn’t there a danger in India though – that they lose their roots now?
Shri Mataji: Oh, very much.
Interviewer: The young people would wear anything like the western [people]?
Shri Mataji: I mean, you see, we have problems, but of a different type. We have horrible problems. Very corrupt, India is very corrupt, extremely corrupt. And this democracy, I think, according to them cannot work it out – corruption. Democracy, corruption, money goes hand in hand. And communism, discipline and fear goes hand in hand. Both ways it’s just the same – to Me. Whether you are communist or you are democrat – one moves to the left, another moves to the right. Makes no difference.
Ascent is the point.
Interviewer: Is that what You call the ‘I believe’-ideologies?
Shri Mataji: I-believe-business, I-believe-business, everybody ‘I believe’. Who are you? You believe?
I mean, if I say that they’ll be angry, but I would say, “If you believe into something who are you to believe? What have you done in your life? Just given big, big lectures – so they become big people. What good have you done? What benevolence have you brought?” That’s the main point. Principle is this – what benevolence have you done to people?
And that’s how people delude, you know, illusion is there. Public gets so much illusion about things, in a way. In India, you see, the bureaucrats are all westernized, absolutely. And they live in Oxford or Cambridge, bureaucrats are. They think Gandhiji was a fool – really, to be very frank. They don’t think he had any practical sense.
Mao tried to use Gandhiji’s lessons – Mao. He did, because I’ve seen that. But then, you see, they thought that it’s not very successful now. Because they think he did not get sufficient money. And they only had discipline. But one of the two they’ll have – either they’ll have discipline or money, one of the two.
But in Sahaja Yoga you have satisfaction. An innate discipline. Innate discipline is the point – innate, comes from within.
I hope your paper will publish all this, your editor will agree.
Interviewer: That’s a lot You said, actually, how I bring that in a story? (Laughter)
Shri Mataji: You know I have seen many young people and in Switzerland there was one fellow who came. And he wrote it so beautifully and he gave it to his editor. And the editor wrote, “Our correspondent had a crash with Shri Mataji and we don’t know what he has written,” and all that. So the whole thing went against Me, in a way. Poor fellow, I hope he didn’t lose his job. Because that’s what I said – these people with their ideas.
Try, try. (Shri Mataji laughing & laughter)
May God bless you! May God bless you!