ORF Radio Interview and Workshop

Vienna (Austria)

1988-06-09 Radio Interview and workshop, Vienna, Austria, DP, 165'
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1988-06-09 ORF Radio Interview CAM 2, Vienna Austria DP-RAW, 80'
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Radio Interview and workshop (untranscribed) . Ashram Vienna (Austria), 9 June 1988.

Interviewer: I am here for the Austrian Broadcasting Corporation.
Shri Mataji: Yes, he told Me that. I am sorry, he told Me 5:30 you’d be here, so I’m a little late, you don’t mind, I was a little late to come here.
Interviewer: Oh, never mind, it’s OK. So, I will place this here if you don’t mind (ed: microphone).
Shri Mataji: It’s all right.

Interviewer: Ok. Yes, I would ask You to tell me first, to give me a definition of what You are working on.
Shri Mataji: Sahaja Yoga.
Interviewer: Yes, what is it? I mean, what is the main idea of it?
Shri Mataji: Sahaja, “Saha” means with, “Ja” means born. Born with you. That is spontaneous. Yoga means “union with the Divine”. Now, many people in the modern times won’t believe there’s anything like Divine. But supposing I say, “There is,” with an open mind of a scientist you must accept it as a hypothesis to begin with. Now, we have the Divine power, very subtle power everywhere, but we can’t feel it. With our human awareness we cannot feel it. With human awareness we also don’t know the absolute truth, we live in a relative world. So, there has to be a breakthrough. And the breakthrough has to take place in our evolutionary process. And Sahaja Yoga is the method which gives you that breakthrough.

Interviewer: How does it do this?
Shri Mataji: Now, within us is placed – is a energy which we call as Kundalini in Sanskrit language, which is a residual energy in the triangular bone, called as Sacrum also means sacred bone. So, maybe the Greeks knew about it. It rises like a primule in a seed, passes through six centers and pierces through the last one here and gives you what we call as the Self-realization or real baptism – real. That’s what it is. And then, on your central nervous system – on your central nervous system you can feel the existence of this All-pervading Power. You can feel all around you there’s cool breeze. And you can feel on your fingertips your own centers which are subtle and the centers of another person, which Jung has described that one has to be ‘collectively conscious’. It’s a happening that has to take (place) within ourselves. It is not mental, it’s not physical, it’s not emotional – it’s beyond that.

Interviewer: I mean, technically, technically how do you – ?
Shri Mataji: Technically, medically, we can say that human beings in emergency can use their sympathetic nervous system. But the parasympathetic system is the one which brings them back to normal. Like supposing you want to run – there’s an emergency, then your sympathetic goes into action, you run fast, your heart becomes very fast, and it comes to its normal state by the activity of the parasympathetic, which is in the center. When the Kundalini rises She nourishes this parasympathetic nervous system and you become in charge of that. You can handle your parasympathetic nervous system.

Interviewer: Yes. And I did mean, technically how do you induce – OK – this rise of the Kundalini in other persons?
Shri Mataji: Kundalini. There is no technique about it, because it is a living process, it is spontaneous. It’s something like seed has to be put in the Mother Earth so it sprouts. It’s that simple. Even if you put your hands towards Me like this you can get your Realization.
Interviewer: This is a wonderful example, to place a seed into the soil, and seeing it – yes.
Shri Mataji: Yes, it’s spontaneous. It’s a living process.
Interviewer: Isn’t it a bit like you want to grow it faster and therefore you pull on the plant? [Laughter] If you induce it in other persons?
Shri Mataji: But first it must be sprouted.
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: It is effortless. If you try anything with the seed it will be spoilt. So, first it should be allowed to sprout. Once it has sprouted you have to put in effort. But it has to be allowed to sprout first, and then to look after it. For that we have a proper technique to understand what are our problems. But without you have got your Realization you cannot make out what problems you have, what centers are catching, where is the obstruction. So, before that if you try anything you can spoil it. So, best thing is first to give you Realization. In the sense through a very small threadlike energy this thing opens out. Then the Grace comes in from the All pervading Power, relaxes your centers more and more energy starts flowing and gradually it improves more and more. But there is a technique by which you yourself can increase the flow of this energy – but after sprouting, not before.

Interviewer: And what is this technique about? How is it?
Shri Mataji: Technique?
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: It’s a very – depending on a person. Now see, we will take your case for example. (Shri Mataji laughing) You are a very busy person, one thing.
Interviewer [laughing]: How do you know?
Shri Mataji: And you are very futuristic
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: And you plan a lot, you think a lot. Such a person we call as a right-sided person. And you exhaust your right side energy much more. So, we have to fill in your right-side energy.
There’s a very simple method after Realization is to put your hand like this and – after Realization, not before that, and just to take the energy from the left-side and put it on the right-side, to fill you up. It’s very simple example of movement of your fingers and hands – but after Realization, not before that. Before that, it has no meaning. It is like if it is not connected to the mains, no use using this instrument.

Interviewer: Are there any, um –
Shri Mataji: Mantras?
Interviewer: I beg Your pardon?
Shri Mataji: Are there any mantras, you mean to say?
Interviewer: No, I didn’t want to ask this, but OK. Yes, so it’s also a question, yes.
Shri Mataji: Yes, there are, there are mantras which are according to the centers, which are in trouble. For example, this is the center between the optic chiasma, is the center of Christ. So now, if the Kundalini has stopped at that point, then you have to take His name, and it opens up. But you have to be a Realized soul first of all. You must have the authority. Then it opens out that center. So, for every center there is a different deity. And at that center we have to take that particular name. It’s nothing haphazard, it is very scientific.
Interviewer: Ok. Now would you say that every person being interested in Sahaja Yoga is mature to get this Realization from You?
Shri Mataji: Not necessary. He can give Realization. He can give it, they are all doing it, not Me. In the beginning I gave it to some. And now they are doing it. It’s like one light which is enlightened can enlighten many. But to begin with it was Me, all right. [Shri Mataji is laughing]

Interviewer: How did you begin?
Shri Mataji: I was born like this. I was born with the same awareness as we call as a Self-realized Soul. But I knew that I’ve to do some job about it. To give Realization to one person is easy, but to give it to a mass is very difficult. So, I had to understand human beings, how I could manage a en-masse Realization. And then I learnt it, found out, discovered it, and now I can give en-masse Realization. Specially in India even if there are 6000 people, at least 4000 people get Realization. But, how many look after their sprouted seed, is their look-out. You cannot force them. So, some of them do become great trees, but some are very slow.

Interviewer: I did read in the ‘Press Communique’ that one of your topics is the topic of Guru, of gurus. Gurus, false gurus. Now what are they? How do you discriminate a false guru and a genuine Guru?
Shri Mataji: Yes, I’ve been talking against them since I think, 1970 very openly, even naming them. It’s very easy to make them out, you see, they are out for money. It’s the shopping. And they are out for money. They know the need of the hour. It’s like the demand and supply business, you see. It’s an economic activity. And, anybody who asks for money, one must know it’s not real. Now, for example, your Realization is a living process. And we don’t pay any money to the Mother Earth to sprout the seed.
Of course, but say, supposing, these people have started this Ashram. Now, here there are so many living. I don’t know how they spend, how they live, it is their lookout. They know all accounts, everything, I don’t bother. I am very bad at money Myself. And also, you see they are the ones who collect money, and put up the posters and things like that. But for Realization, I cannot take money, for curing you I cannot take money. I mean, there’s no question, you cannot value it. This has no economic value.

Interviewer: So, you would say the discrimination is if somebody is interested in money – or not?
Shri Mataji: First. First chance. Second you must see the life style of such a person. Supposing such a man leads a very funny life, immoral life. And tells you big stories, then you should know that this is wrong, because a person who himself is not pure has no business to make others pure. There are many things described about false gurus in our scriptures, thank God. And so if you see their behaviour, that they say something and do something else. And they have scandalous life behind it. But the disciples just hide it, because they think, now we have jumped in the sea so let us have it. They just go through it. They are exposed, so many of them are so badly exposed, but still their disciples find it difficult to get out, because they are under their control, their spell. They know that this man is wrong. He has done so much wrong. Like Rajneesh, now see, he has been found out. There are so many Germans who go to him, in Poona. And about this man I told long time back that he is wrong type of person.

Interviewer: I am working on an issue on what is called New Age.
Shri Mataji: Oh, I see. Now this New Age people, I have read about them, because they came to this place called as Mind and Body Exhibition in London. They invited Me also, but I didn’t go. Because you see that’s also a money-oriented business. And I don’t want to go this mind and thing where there is money business is going on in the name of God or in the name of Spirit or in the name of Evolution. So we didn’t go there. They are talking of clearing the chakras. You cannot clear chakras with effort, as I told you. Your Kundalini has to be awakened, and can be awakened only by a Realized soul who is authorized to do it. Otherwise Kundalini cannot be awakened. So basically the mistake lies that you cannot manoeuvre with your hands, if you try anything, even like acupuncture, if you try anything, then you develop imbalances within yourself.
Interviewer: And yoga tradition is different to this?
Shri Mataji: Yes, yoga tradition also we use, but according to the problems of our centers. Supposing now we have a problem here, and we start doing some exercises of the stomach. What’s the use? So we should know where is the problem. See, we have to be very alert about it to find out where is the problem.
Interviewer: But don’t you think that problem is everywhere? I mean, if you have seven chakras, then there you have seven problem areas? [Laughter]
Shri Mataji: No, areas are limited in certain people. It’s not all the problems, then person won’t exist [Shri Mataji lauging] if all the chakras are caught up. It’s like taking all the medicines – Hatha Yoga, modern Hatha Yoga is like this. That you take all the medicines, all the drugs, [Shri Mataji laughing] whether you need it or not. That can be very dangerous. Specially I have seen people who do Hatha Yoga have a problem on the heart and also become very dry people, mostly they have emotional problems and also they have divorces. It’s very common, because they become very dry. Lot of, you see, imbalances coming.
Interviewer: I see what you mean, yeah.
Shri Mataji: They are not integrated people. It’s not only physical being that you live for. You live for your Spiritual being. Physical being is looked after by the Spiritual being later on once you are a Realized Soul. You don’t go to doctors after that. And so many diseases get cured automatically. So many people give up all their bad habits, like drugs, this that – automatically. I don’t have to do anything. It’s your own Kundalini, it’s your own power, it’s everything your own. Once you are awakened, you become your own guru. You don’t need a Guru either.

Interviewer: What is your tradition. I mean the tradition of Sahaja Yoga, since when does it exist as an idea?
Shri Mataji: I think from times immemorial, because this is the only way you can raise Kundalini, by a Realized Soul. But used to be only once – one person, maybe two persons maybe. Like we can say the Tree of Life had one or two flowers to begin with. But today is a Blossomtime. That’s what I am taking advantage of.
Interviewer: Yes. There is no founder or something, some mythical person?
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, nothing mythical, no, nothing mythical. But Nanaka has talked about it. Kabira has talked about it. Adi Shankaracharya has talked about it. Fourteen thousand years back Markandeya has talked about it. But only problem is this that today what I have done is to give it to masses. Any discovery if it doesn’t go to the masses it is of no use.
Interviewer: Doesn’t go to the what?
Shri Mataji: Masses, en-masse, masses, many people.
Interviewer: Many people. And when I talked of Yoga traditions, it is not only Hatha Yoga, there is also Raja Yoga, Jnana Yoga.
Shri Mataji: Now, Raja Yoga also is another thing, which is a very big misconception we have, because people don’t know what is Raja Yoga, so they try to – I mean, I don’t know, they have brought in something very artificial. To give an analogy I will tell you this way. That when the Kundalini rises automatically within us, [bandhas ?] take place, means, the holding of the Kundalini takes place. Then also – of course it’s a mechanism that works the whole thing, all right, automatically, spontaneously. What they do is like without starting the car, they start moving the wheel. The car won’t move. They do all these things which are described when the Kundalini rises. But it is a spontaneous happening, innately done within yourself. It is not that you can do it from outside. So when they talk of Raja Yoga what do they say? They used to even cut the tongue of people. I have seen people whose tongues were cut, because it is said that when the Kundalini rises [Shri Mataji laughing] then the Kechari takes place, meaning your tongue is pulled inside. So they used to cut the tongue, put it back here. All kinds of nonsensical tortures, even Lamas and all this. There’s no need to torture your body.
Interviewer: But there is no proof that the system is wrong, I mean, this is really –
Shri Mataji: No, it is there, you can find out.
Interviewer: how to say – a very extreme –
Shri Mataji: Extreme style, but they used to do it.
Interviewer: style, yes, I hope so. [laughing]
Shri Mataji: And they used to go to that stage, I’m telling you. Extreme, I am telling you. Otherwise they would make people sit down for hours together, and hold your stomach, hold your neck, and do all kinds of horrible things to this body which God has created. You don’t have to torture yourself. God didn’t create you to make you unhappy, or to torture yourself or to suffer. He wants you to enjoy everything.
Interviewer: What about Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga?
Shri Mataji: You see now, Karma is an idea.
Interviewer: They all work with techniques.
Shri Mataji: Yes, but the Karma Yoga is that – is only for human beings that whatever we have done, we have to suffer this life and all that. But now, in this lifetime when the Kundalini rises, She comes up to the Agnya Chakra. Agnya Chakra is the one where Christ is residing. And Christ has died for our Karmas, once for all. Once He is awakened He has died for all our Karmas, for our sins, Agnya Chakra opens out, you go out. Actually our Karmas create within us what we call, is an ego and superego as described by Jung. And these two things close our fontanel bone area. But as soon as the Kundalini passes through Agnya, between the optic chiasma these things open like a lotus, and the Kundalini comes out and you can feel the Cool Breeze of the Holy Ghost on top of your head. So, the keynote is the awakening of the Kundalini.
Interviewer: But, I mean, You think then the whole problem of Karma is solved by this?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course, of course, that’s what I am saying,
Interviewer: This would be very comfortable.
Shri Mataji: It has to come to that. That’s what it is. [laughter]
Interviewer: But it sounds if it’s too comfortable for me. [Laughter]
Shri Mataji: No, no, it has to be, it has to be, because it is so vital. Anything vital has to be comfortable. For example breathing is so vital to us. For that if you have to go to some guru or to read some books what would happen? It is so vital that we should get it. And that has happened now.

Interviewer: Now what said Buddha, for instance? He was talking about the way which is soft in the beginning, soft in the middle and soft in the end.
Shri Mataji: Yes, He did, but Buddha’s times are over now. We have passed through that also. Those times are over now. Buddha had, you see – because Buddha Himself was so surprised later on that if you talk about God, you see, people just start thinking about God, about this and that – so He said, “Don’t talk of God, just talk of Self-realization, that’s all.” Because He wanted to pin down people, you see, to the real way of progressing, and not to just indulge into unnecessary ritualism and this and that. That’s why He said so. But actually those times are over and you can get your Realization, no doubt. It is proved now. They all have got it, they all have felt Cool Breeze, you can see their faces. They don’t go to doctors, they are keeping all right, they are having a nice time.

Interviewer: What about, I mean, in the traditional books there is described that each chakra is combined with magical capabilities?
Shri Mataji: Of course, it is, it is.
Interviewer: Are those people all sorcerers in this aspect? [Laughter]
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. They all know about it, every chakra has a different quality. Like the first chakra is the chakra of our excretion, excretes everything from us, you see. And it has a special quality that it is the one that gives us holiness, auspiciousness, wisdom. The second chakra gives us aesthetics. When second chakra is – what shall I say – ignited, or is awakened through Kundalini, then people suddenly become aesthetics. We have many like that. Then they become suddenly great scientists. Recently one boy has discovered a very unique type of, what you call, switch which he does not know how he discovered it. So, like that every chakra has a boon to give. No doubt about it.
Interviewer: For instance, I mean this chakra here [pointing to the heart]
Shri Mataji: Center Heart.
Interviewer: Yes, is combined with the capability, the ability to understand – don’t know – animals.
Shri Mataji: Understand what?
Interviewer: Animals.
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course.
Interviewer: The language of animals.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, not language of animals, no, no. That’s not true. This center of chakra is guarded by Jagadamba, the Mother of the Earth, Mother of the Universe is here. But this has got the antibodies, this chakra creates antibodies. Antibodies are what we call them Ganas are. They can fight your diseases. And that’s what is created by this chakras. And now, for example, AIDS, I will come on AIDS. AIDS is caused by the deficiency of this chakra and also of the first chakra. If you could manage these two chakras you can cure AIDS also.
Interviewer: Yeah, but this is also one of the abilities which are stored in here.
Shri Mataji: Yes, but with the animals, you don’t have to talk to them, but they understand you through your vibrations. You have such vibrations that animals know that you are a Realized Soul. A serpent will know, a horse will know, a dog will know – but not all of them. Some of them can be sinister also. But they are frightened of you, if they are sinister, they are frightened. But if they are good, then they’ll come to you and will be very nice to you. But I would not say we understand their language or anything, but we understand each others’ heart. [Shri Mataji laughing]
Interviewer: That’s a lot.
Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s the love, because that’s the mother’s – that’s the mother’s center. It’s very important center. But as a result of the defect in this center women can develop a kind of a trouble with their breasts. Breast cancer is caused by that. So many problems are caused with the deficiency of this center.

Interviewer: So, would you see it as, I mean to come back to the question of the New Age, is one of the signs of New Age that you are travelling around?
Shri Mataji: Nothing, this is the New Age I have started. You see, we had a very great artist from India who came here, he is a shennai player. He is a Muslim gentleman. He said, “These are all [Khalists ?], these are all pure people, Khalists people. So, you are making a Khalistan here.” I said, “Yes, this is the Khalistan which Nanaka has described.” So, he said, “What are they making?” I said, “You go and ask them what are they making? Where there is war and killing and all that going on, there is no Khalistan. These are Khalists, the pure people. And it’s described in all the prophecies. In India there was a prophecy done by a very old astrologer. I think, he was the first – he is the pioneer of astrology. And he is the one who said, “Such and such time is going to come, and that Kundalini is going to be awakened, and that people are going to get this blessing, and this will be the New Age, and that people will become realized other people.” Even William Blake has so clearly said. William Blake has said, “God of men,” I mean, His prophecies are to such a detailed thing, that even in London where our Ashram will be he has described. To that extent. So, it’s all there.
Interviewer: True. One last question.
Shri Mataji: Yes?

Interviewer: Which may be not the central question, may be, yes, I don’t know. What is the place of morality in Your system?
Shri Mataji: It’s innate. It’s innate. I don’t have to tell you, “Don’t do this, don’t do that,” it’s all innate with you. As soon as you get the light you drop the snakes. That’s all. You don’t have to ask Me, it just works out. The morality part works by itself, it’s innate. You know that this if do I’ll lose my vibrations. It’s just innate. You become moral without My telling you.
Interviewer: I see. Now this is really a completely different way than the tradition says because tradition says, it is a very hard way,
Shri Mataji: No, no.
Interviewer: It’s a very hard way –
Shri Mataji: No, no.
Interviewer: and you have to behave in certain ways.
Shri Mataji: No, no.
Interviewer: Yama and Niyama.
Shri Mataji: Yama Niyama is all right, because this was thousands of years back, you see. Hatha Yoga started thousands of years back. For that they used to select one or two persons for Realization. At the time of Rama, this was one only Nachiketa who went to Janaka. He was the only person who could give Realization. And also, Nachiketa he made him run up and down, he hung a sword on his head , did everything, [Shri Mataji laughing] and then he gave him Realization. So, it was a different thing. Today the time is different, as I say it’s the Blossomtime, times have changed.

Interviewer: And you mean they have improved?
Shri Mataji: You see, we have ripened. We have matured. You have gone through all those experiences. We have done all Hatha Yoga, everything – in last lives. And now this is the time for you to get your fruits.

Interviewer: I personally would doubt that human society has ripened, or has improved. If you look throughout the world, then more wars than ever, more people than ever.
Shri Mataji: Yes, it is, it has to be, it has to be. It has to be at the worst time when we will be having. It’s written down in the Nala Akhyana. Is there was one fellow called Nala, and his wife was separated by this Kali, the one who is ruling now. Kali is the modern times deity – Kali, Kali Yuga this is. And he caught hold of this Kali. He said, “I am going to kill you, because you are the one who puts us into confusions, into all demoralization and everything, so better I kill you.” He said, “See, I have also one importance.” “So what is your importance?” He said, “The importance is such that at the time when there will be [Core ?] Kali Yuga, I mean that’s the blackest time of Kali Yuga, that’s the time those who are seeking me in the hills and dales will become householders, and they’ll get their Realization.” He said it. So, this is the time, not only the time, but the maturity comes through witnessing all these things. That’s why they are taking to it. Why there is so much seeking today? Because they see all these things happening. So, there are people who are just ready. I agree with you, to look at, it looks horrible, like a pond full of worms. But I have seen lotuses coming out of it, fragrant lotuses, giving fragrance. You see the lotuses. And we have small little lotuses also. [Laughter] Quite a lot of them all over the world. You’d love to see them. The world can be easily changed. It’s difficult for people to understand that it is true. That’s the only trouble is. Because, you see, they – I don’t know in what world they live. I don’t know what – they don’t believe in it. Now see, these people are here. They are people who have been cured by – so many people have enjoyed Sahaja Yoga. But still it happens. I think it will come. It will happen.

India is an easier place to work out Sahaja Yoga. Because they know about it, and they have felt it. They are more – they are not in, you see, they cannot do shopping, they cannot do guru shopping. Thank God we are not so rich. [Shri Mataji laughing & laughter] So, all the gurus have come down here, you see, to lynch you nicely. [Laughter] And make you do this. But some of them have been really very cruel, I must say, very cruel people. The way they have destroyed, they have destroyed so many people, made so much money.

Interviewer: Sure [inaudible ].
Shri Mataji: Horrible, horrible, it is. So, you can’t make money out of it at all. And one gentleman who came from BBC told Me that Anglo-Saxon brain cannot understand anything without money. What do you say to that?
Interviewer: I think it’s not true.
Shri Mataji: It’s not true. Because how can it be? How much money did you pay to Christ? To anyone of the real saints, I am saying. But the whole system is like this working, what to do? I’m sure it will work out, I’m sure. It has to spread. And it will work out, no doubt.
Look at the happiness on their faces when I say that. [Shri Mataji laughing & laughter]

Interviewer: I don’t know, I have a sentence of Ramakrishna in my mind who said, “Sure there are easy ways.”
Shri Mataji: Who?
Interviewer: Ramakrishna – there are easy ways.
Shri Mataji: Ramakrishna – what has he done, let Me see. Has he given Realization to anyone?
Interviewer: Not yet.
Shri Mataji: No, no one, no one got Realization – no one.
Interviewer: He told the people how to make it themselves.
Shri Mataji: Nothing of the kind. You’ll be surprised, the people of Ramakrishna Mission, all heads are dying of cancer.
Interviewer: Oh, I don’t speak of the Ramakrishna Mission of today, I’m talking of Ramakrishna himself.
Shri Mataji: But what I am saying is that Ramakrishna has not done this type of work, you see, he has just lectured, that’s all. Because I have done it. So, he knows – I mean, I wouldn’t call him an authority on this. He has not done this job.
Those who have done the work of Realization are – the people are called as Avaduthas, in India, Avaduthas. And they have been as Nath, Nath panthis. Very few of them we had. We had ten Naths in India who did this Realization work. And, if you see, Nanaka did it, Kabira did it. They have talked about it. Nobody has said that without Kundalini we can do Realization. Those who have not done this kind of work they cannot say, they cannot say. You see, authority should be used of the people who have done this job. Those who have not done it, how can they say?
Interviewer: Well, OK. I mean, this might lead to a very long discussion.
Shri Mataji: No, you don’t know now, I know that Ramakrishna has not done this job. Moreover, in the Ramakrishna Mission what I find, they have no idea about it.
Interviewer: Well, today it is…
Shri Mataji: They are dying of cancer most of them, are dying of cancer, it’s very bad. And I am really sorry for it. Because dying of cancer means there is something definitely wrong that they have no knowledge about it – about the chakras, nothing, even the people…

Interviewer: This is one possibility. Well, Ramakrishna himself died of cancer.
Shri Mataji: You just find out the statistics how many have died of cancer from Ramakrishna Mission.
It’s rather surprising, because the other day, I had a lady who has been a ardent disciple of Ramakrishna. And was suffering from a very bad cancer – very, absolutely under galloping stage she came. And her cousin is a doctor, his name is Dr. Talwar, who is a Sahaja Yogi, who brought to Me. He said, “Mother such heat comes from them.” So, that means they had no idea of chakras, they didn’t know how to do it. ,that part they never – actually he must have prepared people for sort of moral life, and dharmic life and all that.
But this side they didn’t go. Because to get into Kundalini one has to have the knowledge of Kundalini, has to be deft about it. Even I would say, supposing you are a born-realized – you could be, anybody could be a born-Realized. Still, I would not say that he is capable of raising the Kundalini, because he doesn’t know.
You can be a born-Realized.

But to know the knowledge you have to understand it from some authority. Otherwise, it is of no value. Yes, that’s it. So, you have to be deft, you have to be all right. That’s why we call it Sahaja Yogis, we don’t call them Yogis – Sahaja Yogis. Means they have the knowledge about Kundalini. They know the problems of Kundalini. They know how to raise the Kundalini. They know how to save themselves from others’ problems. So, unless and until they have that much knowledge plus Realization established, we don’t call them Sahaja Yogis. So, you have to become. It’s the question of becoming. In Sahaja Yoga, I cannot just say that, “You become now. You are a Sahaja Yogi.” You cannot brand someone, you have to become, and becoming is that maturity of knowledge.

Interviewer: Is my impression right, that, I mean, if I’m giving an example –
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, yes.
Interviewer: That when You are talking about Kundalini, it sounds as if You were talking about a domesticated pet like a small dog, which is very nice or a cat and you can – very easy. Isn’t the idea of Kundalini is a very, very intensive energy which you are dealing with?
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no, no, it is intensive.
Interviewer: It’s the most intensive…
Shri Mataji: It’s like your mother, it’s your mother, it’s your individual mother. She is like a tape recorder who has taped everything about you. All right? But supposing I do it, there must be something about Me. Why not put the other way round? If I can do it raising of the Kundalini, it must be something about Me. Maybe I am like Mother Earth that I can sprout the seeds so easily. Maybe. Why not put the attention to that side? Maybe I don’t want to talk about Myself. But there is definitely something I am doing, no doubt.

Interviewer: Yes, but I mean, is it right that – what do you think, what is your answer? Is Kundalini a very, very intensive energy or is it a harmless creature like – say a pet, a cat, which you – ?
Shri Mataji: No, it is the energy of pure desire. It is an energy of pure desire within you. All other desires are impure, because no desire makes you satisfied. So, this is an energy of pure desire within you. It is waiting all the time for your rebirth. And it has to be awakened by a person authorized by the Divine, not by any church, by any temple, by anyone, but a person who has the authority.

Interviewer: And You don’t think that the person who has the most authority to awaken one’s Kundalini is one single?
Shri Mataji: I shouldn’t say that, but just now I think I haven’t met another one, for the time being. But if I meet someone, I’ll be very happy. But somebody who has to have authority, the knowledge. Like all of them can raise the Kundalini as I can raise, no problem. All of them can. But if they start taking money, they’ll lose the power. If they start misbehaving they’ll lose the power. That’s how the Kundalini is very intelligent. She understands. And She loves you and She will not allow you to do anything wrong. She coordinates, She cooperates. She is tremendous, no doubt, but she is not harmful, She loves you.

Interviewer: Now, I mean, an energy is something which is neutral?
Shri Mataji: She is not attached to you, but She loves you. In the sense there is in Her detachment She wants you to get your Realization. Because She is your mother and you have to have your Realization. That’s very important. That’s Her desire for ages now and that’s why you are a seeker, because She is there.
Interviewer: Aha – is this the same like Atman?
Shri Mataji: No, Atma is Spirit in the heart. Now I’ll tell you from the another side, so you will understand. See, we can say that God Almighty is reflected within your heart as Atma, all right? And the Kundalini is the power of God. She is desire that we all should get our Realization. She is reflected in you as Kundalini, as the Holy Ghost. So, this Kundalini has to rise and meet the Atma, because though it is in the heart, the seat of Atma is here in the center, here in the fontanel bone area. That’s why She has to rise and touch it, the connection is established.

Interviewer: For me it was unclear, because it is said that the Atman is the one which is inside you and always is awaiting that you discover it.
Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s the way.
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Now, I would give an analogy. In modern times we have lots of analogies. You can see in a gas, you see. Now the gas is the energy. For example. Let’s see the Kundalini is the energy, and there is a little light flickering. When this gas meets that light, your attention becomes enlightened. Just an analogy up to a point you should see it.
Interviewer: I see an explosion happening when gas meets the light. This is exactly my question.
Shri Mataji: No, there is no explosion, no explosion, because they understand, they know. Actually, you will be surprised how beautifully She works. How She comes into you. Like somebody has an obstruction on the Nabhi chakra. You’ll be surprised She pulsates, even in the triangular bone, just like a heart. And She suggests to you that this is the problem, now try to correct. Any problem She suggests, and She is so beautiful, the way She handles so gently your personality, She never wants to harm you in any way, if there’s too much obstruction She goes down.

Interviewer: You mean it’s a force that wants equilibrium?
Shri Mataji: Yes, you have to have balance, you have to have equilibrium. If the balance is upside down, if there is any obstruction because of that imbalances, She suggests, She tells you.

Interviewer: For me it was unclear, because it is said that the Atman is the one which is inside you and always is awaiting that you discover it.
Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s the way.
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Now, I would give an analogy. In modern times we have lots of analogies. You can see in a gas, you see. Now the gas is the energy. For example. Let’s see the Kundalini is the energy, and there is a little light flickering. When this gas meets that light, your attention becomes enlightened. Just an analogy up to a point you should see it.
Interviewer: I see an explosion happening when gas meets the light. This is exactly my question.
Shri Mataji: No, there is no explosion, no explosion, because they understand, they know. Actually, you will be surprised how beautifully She works. How She comes into you. Like somebody has an obstruction on the Nabhi chakra. You’ll be surprised She pulsates, even in the triangular bone, just like a heart. And She suggests to you that this is the problem, now try to correct. Any problem She suggests, and She is so beautiful, the way She handles so gently your personality, She never wants to harm you in any way, if there’s too much obstruction She goes down.

Interviewer: You mean it’s a force that wants equilibrium?
Shri Mataji: Yes, you have to have balance, you have to have equilibrium. If the balance is upside down, if there is any obstruction because of that imbalances, She suggests, She tells you.

Interviewer: How much are You, I mean, I said my last question half an hour before. [Laughter] How much are you influenced by Christian ideas?
Shri Mataji: You mean Christianity or Christ?
Interviewer: Yes. I don’t know – define it, I mean, whatever is important for You.
Shri Mataji: Christ is very much there, no doubt, but Christianity I don’t know, it’s like all other religions, it has diverted. There was a book recently which I read Gnostic, which was – you might have also heard about it, when Saint Thomas on his way to India wrote this thing and put it in a jar in Egypt. It was found out about 48 years back. ‘Gna’ in Sanskrit means ‘to know’. And in that whatever he has written challenges all our Christian ideas. First is that we must suffer, that God wants us to suffer for Him, and all these ideas of Christianity – we should confess our sins, and all that is being challenged.

So, about Christianity – I was Myself born in the Christian religion. And I was quite surprised the way we are following Christ. Because if we had followed Him properly – the first thing He has said is that, “You have to be born again.” And when He said that again we branded ourselves “we are born again”. Just like so many people brand themselves as “Brahmins” or anything. But you are not born again, because a born-again person has powers, has powers of raising the Kundalini. So, like that, Christ has said that, “You are to be born again,” meaning you have to have your Kundalini awakened. It’s very clearly given in our Shastras, that a bird is called as a ‘dwijaha’, means born twice and a Brahmin is called also a ‘dwijaha’, means born twice. Means the Brahmin has one birth as a human being and second birth as a Brahmin when he knows the Brahma, means the All-pervading power. In the same way a bird is born as an egg and then is reborn as a bird. So, this is what is clearly given that you are to be born again, means that you have to get your Realization. Christ has said so many things, like He said, “Thou shalt not have adulterous eyes.” Now tell Me Christians what do you think about their eyes?

Why Christianity has failed? Why has it failed everywhere? The problem with them is that they have not followed Christ as they should have. And it’s all diverted. The whole thing is so diverted. Now also I don’t understand why Paul is in Bible. Paul has nothing to do with Christ. He was epileptic. He was the one who killed Stephen. He was the one who killed so many Christians. He just had the supra-conscious experience of a cross and finished. He is an organizer. And do you know now the Protestants are going so far to say that Christ was a human being – finished. Because they can’t go anywhere near Him. So, call Him a human being. They are even going up to the point to say that He was homosexual, what do you say to that? I mean, they go on saying every sort of thing about Him, who was the only Son of God.

Interviewer: Now, also the Buddha was saying that He was nobody but a human being, an enlightened being, but a human being?
Shri Mataji: One has to say it. You see, it’s very dangerous. Because Christ said so, so Buddha must have learnt a lesson. Or I say that because I have learnt a lesson also. Because you see, human beings are so mad if you tell them anything, you are something, they’ll just come and hit you. We should talk to sane people about it. They are not sane. You tell them anything, “I am this and this.” If you are false, they’ll follow you, but if you are real, they’ll kill you. That’s something surprising about human beings – their brains work the other way around.
Interviewer: So, you are talking about God as a real entity, as an existing entity. God, I mean, is existing, is something for you?
Shri Mataji: Of course.
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Of course, He exists.

Interviewer: Excuse me that I’m asking this [it was not clear for me ?].
Shri Mataji: No, no, it’s correct, it’s correct, it’s correct. No, no, what I am saying is true. But I would say in modern times, as Buddha didn’t want to talk about God, I didn’t talk about God for at least two years. Tried to avoid, because in modern times if you talk about God half of the people would leave the hall. But gradually now I convinced them about the existence of God, God exists. You have ask just a question, it’s like a computer when you are a Realized Soul. Ask a question. If you say, “Mother, is there God?” Vibrations start coming.
Supposing, relatively you see [Shri Mataji laughing & laughter], you put your hands and ask Me a question, that’s it.

Now you ask another question, like say, supposing somebody comes before Me, they start shaking like this. And you say that you are following a false guru, that’s why you are shaking. Then the person will say, “How do you say, that because I am shaking maybe because I have my powers.” So, you get another one who’s suffering from lunatic asylum, coming from lunacy, you see, you ask him – he will also shake. So, relatively you see what you are.
It has happened many a times with us, you see. In Poona, they’ve said that, “You are not a Brahmin,” and all that. But they never told Me, these boys never told Me. We were having a program. And suddenly I said, “Who are Brahmins among you?” So, five, six of them came and sat before Me, “We are Brahmins.” I said, “All right, you are Brahmins, now put your hands towards Me.” They started shaking like this. So, I said, “Why are you shaking?” So, of course, being Indians, they said, “Because You are Shakti so we are shaking.” I said, “All right, but why are you shaking, nobody is shaking except for you?” They said, “See, the others are shaking there.” I asked them who are they. So, they said, “We are certified mad people from a lunatic asylum, have come because one person has been cured by You.” [Shri Mataji laughing] So the Brahmins kept all right. This is what it is. [Laughter]
I must say the Divine comes to my help, you know. Otherwise, these fanatics they think no end of themselves. They think God is in their pockets.
Interviewer: Ok.

Shri Mataji: I am happy you are for New Age. But try to understand where is the New Age. Everything has a camouflage. Everything has a camouflage. When I went to America, people told Me that, “Mother, you better get your copyright.” I said, “What copyright?” “You must get copyright, otherwise they will use Your words.” I said, “Let them use it, it’s a very good idea. Why should I take credit for anything? Let them use.” So they are saying vibrations, they are talking chakras, they are talking this. But what about Kundalini rising? – They can’t do it. They can’t do it. That’s the only point. They are using all My words, if you listen to My lectures long time back, you see, they are using all My words, they are using all My knowledge, everything. But that’s superficial. That’s all superficial. You have to have your Realization. And there is no harm. You take your Realization and you give Realizations to others. But if you want to make money with My words, if you want to make an organization with My words, then I can’t help you, I am sorry. That’s it.
Interviewer: Ok.
All right?
Interviewer: Thank You very much!
Shri Mataji: Thank you!

Interviewer: And how long are You going to stay?
Shri Mataji: I think, tomorrow I am going to Graz.
Interviewer: To Graz, yeah.
Shri Mataji: Then day after tomorrow I am going back to London. See, these people have fixed Me very much, you see, I have to go to America, I have to go to – I don’t know to how many countries.
Sahaja Yogi: Sorry, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: I am in the West for three, four months, My husband is in London, he is posted there, yes. And I have to also go to India, My household I have got.

Interviewer: Do you have devotees also in London or…?
Shri Mataji: Everywhere, fifteen countries, fifteen countries we have, there are lots of them. They are all doing this work, but we are a quiet people. We don’t advertise too much, we don’t, I mean, use all these methods and all that. Because, you see, the trouble in Sahaja Yoga – you have to become. It’s the point. You have to have really honest people. Who are really honestly seeking and who want to become. There’s no question of just having plastic growth in Sahaja Yoga, we cannot. You have to have real flowers. And it takes time sometimes.
Interviewer: It makes the difference, yes.

Shri Mataji: I started with – you’ll be surprised, in England I started with seven of them. And for four years. You know English nuts are very difficult to break. But once they break, they are wonderful. Once they break, I tell you, they are giants. It took four years to break their nuts. Very difficult. Very sceptical, over read, this thing, that thing. But now they are scholars of Sahaja Yoga – scholars. There is no German book, isn’t it about Sahaja Yoga?
Sahaja Yogi: Now we have an introduction book, Shri Mataji, about fifty pages.
Shri Mataji: Also, I am not very much in favour of writing lots of books. Because if you read too much then also you become something else, not yourself. [Shri Mataji laughing] So, best is first you’ll get your Realization – then you can read. Before that reading is useless. This reading, reading makes a person mad, I tell you. And also Kabira has said that, “By reading people have become mad,” he said it.

Interviewer: It depends what you are reading, yeah?
Shri Mataji: Even then. You see, what happens that when you are reading and you are seeking – by words, you cannot reach there. Like Adi Sankaracharya has said, Shabdajalam. These are the nets of words. He says, “Mother take me out of the nets of words.” Shabdajalam is the word he has used. That’s why reading is all right, after Realization with understanding what is what, whatever is needed. But that much but not too much of it. Because it can make, you see, confusion. As it is, in these modern times, confusion is the essence, confusion is the essence. Sabranth, in Sanskrit they call it Sabranth. Sabranth is confusion. And these people also create confusion who come out with this banner, and that banner and that banner.
Interviewer: Sure.

Shri Mataji: In Sahaja Yoga there’s [something ?], all religions we know, all prophets we know. All – we know what they have said. Mohammed Sahib has said that, “At the time of resurrection – Kiyama he calls it – your hands will speak and they will give witness against you.”
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: He said it, every one of them. But later on, when people followed them the mistake came. Because they were not Realized Souls.

Interviewer: So, Sahaja Yoga does not depend on, I mean, who is doing it. Never mind if he is a Christian, if he is a Buddhist, if he is a [inaudible ?].
Shri Mataji: Of course, of course, of course, I mean, it makes no difference to us at all.
Interviewer: Also, an atheist?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course, atheists are the best. [Laughter] Atheists are the best, because they have not accepted anything blindly. They are the best, you see. They are the best people.
Interviewer: Fine. Thank You!
Shri Mataji: Very nice meeting you. Bye, bye.
May God bless you!

[German conversation]

Sahaja Yogi: Do we have a paper for the follow-up programs that we can give it to him? Maybe you can call this gentleman, you are colleagues. He should get his Self-realization.
Interviewer: You mean, is this a brochure – the Self Realization?
Sahaja Yogi: We make follow-up programs. After Shri Mataji is leaving, we make follow-up programs, but even there we can give Self-realization.
Interviewer: I see. – You can give others Self-realization? It’s a paradox.
Shri Mataji: Of course, [Laughter] and you can also do it.
Interviewer: But that’s a paradox.
Sahaja Yogis: You could make an experiment, Shri Mataji, right now. [Laughter]
You can have it now, if you want, Shri Mataji will give it to you.
You can try it. You see, he is in front, I go in the back and you can see on the hands – you want? Come on.
Stay seated, with the hands to Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Be comfortable.
Interviewer: Like this?
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, like this. Be comfortable, that’s all, that’s all, yes.

Sahaja Yogi: And you can look at Shri Mataji’s bindi.
Shri Mataji: Not necessary, it’s all right. [Laughter] It just works.
Be pleasant and don’t feel guilty. That’s one of the things. You are not to feel guilty at all about anything.
You must know you are the temple of God. So, you must respect yourself. And forgive yourself, first of all, that’s the catch you have. That’s the only catch you have.
Let him take out the chain a little bit, that’s all, it’s a pressure, the chain.
And not to feel guilty at all.

Sahaja Yogi: It’s cool, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: And his Vishuddhi. That’s why in the hand. Are you feeling any cool breeze in the hand?
Interviewer: Maybe.
Shri Mataji: Now don’t doubt yourself. See for yourself. Is there cool breeze coming?
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: All right. That’s a fact. Now put your left hand on top of your head and see if there is a Cool Breeze coming out of your own head? Here. Here. Here, just here.
Interviewer: Here?
Shri Mataji: Little higher. Yes, yes. You can move it and see for yourself. See?
Interviewer: Yes.

Shri Mataji: There is. It is there. Now, just ask Me a question. Put the hands like that, just call Me Mother, it’s better. “Mother, is this the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost?” Just ask this question. Do it three times. Holy Ghost, yes. Ask three times.
Interviewer: Mother, is this the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost? Mother, is this the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost? Mother, is this the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost?
Shri Mataji: You get more in the hand when you ask this question.
Interviewer: Yes, in the left hand.
Shri Mataji: Yes, left, and right, that’s what I said, you are right-sided. [Laughter]
Interviewer: My God!
Shri Mataji: Come forward, come forward, bring your chair forward. Now, for the right-sided people Christ has given a very big remedy: just you say –

Aside: Now left to the right, left to the right, left to the right, yes, yes, yes.
Shri Mataji: We are giving you a balance. Now you have to just forgive everyone.
Just forgive everyone.
You might think it’s difficult. It’s not, it’s a myth. Whether you forgive or don’t forgive makes no difference, isn’t it? That you understand.
So, just by saying that ‘I forgive’ at least the load is over.
Now you just say, “Mother, I forgive everyone.” Say it three times, but from your heart.

Interviewer: Mother, I forgive everyone.
Shri Mataji: From your heart. Again.
Interviewer: Mother, I forgive everyone.
Shri Mataji: Again.
Interviewer: Mother, I forgive everyone.
Shri Mataji: Again, once more.
Interviewer: Mother, I forgive everyone.
Shri Mataji: Now, got it?
Interviewer: You mean the cool breeze?
Shri Mataji: That’s it.
Interviewer: Still, it’s warm here. No.
Shri Mataji: Right sidedness. That’s what is the balance.
Let’s see. Better?
Can you come forward?
You have not forgiven, to be very frank.
Interviewer: OK.

Shri Mataji: All right. Now, let’s see.
Just forgive. Forgive. Forgive. Forgive. Forgive. Forgive. Forgive. Forgive everyone. Forgive. Better now?
Compared to that one it’s too much. I told you right sidedness, you exhaust the right energy too much. You need to balance. Now it’s better. Better now?

This is what you asked Me – the technique.
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: I told you that you have to go to the left and bring the Grace. But you are relaxed, if you see, there’s no thought, no thought in your mind, no thought.
Still, you see, it’s not. The Agnya is better. It’s the center of Christ, all right? Just think of it.
Now better? Agnya? Agnya is there. Better now?
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Better. [Shri Mataji laughing & laughter]
Also, this portion. You get pain here sometimes? Just put your hand here. Vishuddhi. Because he has to talk, you know, that’s why. And you have to talk to all kinds of people also, isn’t it?
Interviewer: Yes, that’s my profession.
Shri Mataji: Can’t help it.
Interviewer: No.
Shri Mataji: That’s why. Now, better?
Ha! Now better! Now it’s all right.

Look at your eyes, is there a mirror? [Laughter] There is a light in your eyes. Now, even – this is a short sight? Do you have a short sight?
Inter viewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: All right. That can be cured also with this.
Interviewer: That’s excellent.
Shri Mataji: Very easy. All right?
So, you can come and ask these people if you are in a hurry to go now. This can be very easily cured – short sight and they’ll tell you how to do it.
This one is found out – right side. It’s too much he thinks. Right Nabhi. Now better.

Interviewer: It’s cooler.
Shri Mataji: Cooler?
Interviewer: Yes. OK.
May God bless you!
Nice meeting you. What’s your name?
Interviewer: Werner [Wanschura ?].
Shri Mataji: Werner?
Interviewer: Yes.
Shri Mataji: He told Me that there is a very nice man who would come. I’m really happy.
Interviewer: Is it true? [Laughter]

Shri Mataji: Yes. Now you must know how to use it, that’s all. Now you got your Realization sprouted. You must know how to use it. You can give Self -realization to people now. You must learn how to do it, that’s all. It’s very simple.
Left Agnya is there, but now if he comes next any time you cure his Left Agnya and his short sight will go away. Because Left Agnya he has got, that’s the only problem. That will be all right.

Sahaja Yogi: Shri Mataji, may I say one word to him also?
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Sahaja Yogi: Because he was so anxious that it should be connected with more effort. This was the beginning, but I promise to you that you need effort to become better and better.
Interviewer: Thank you.
Shri Mataji: This is true. This is true, very true.

Sahaja Yogi: This is the start and still we have to work on us.
Shri Mataji: He’ll come round. You take his address and I think I will tell you what is to be done for his eyesight.
You have so many brothers and sisters all over the world now.
Just imagine, I should read about New Age now only in London, and to find it here somebody who knows about it.
Interviewer: Ok.
Shri Mataji: May God bless you!
Interviewer: Thank You! I wish You a nice journey, a nice trip!
Shri Mataji: Thank you very much! Thank you! And I should say, wish you a nice successful life!
Sahaja Yogi: Auf Wiedersehen.
Shri Mataji: Very nice man, very nice. Very good, open minded.

Yes? What is the problem?

Sahaja Yogi: Can we go now?
Shri Mataji: Just let me have some water.