ORF Radio Interview and Workshop

Vienna (Austria)

1988-06-09 Radio Interview and workshop, Vienna, Austria, DP, 165'
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1988-06-09 ORF Radio Interview CAM 2, Vienna Austria DP-RAW, 80'
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1988-0609 Radio Interview and Workshop

Interviewer: Ask you to tell me first to give me a basic definition of what’s your work in.

Shri Mataji: Sahaja Yoga.

Interviewer: Yes. What is it? I main idea of it?

Shri Mataji: Sahaja. Saha means ‘with’.  ‘Ja’ means born. Born with you. That is spontaneous. Yoga means union with the Divine. Now many people in modern times won’t believe there’s anything like this. Supposing I say there is. Keep an open mind of a scientist you must accept it as a hypothesis to begin with. Now we have a Divine power, a very subtle power everywhere but we can’t feel it.  With our human awareness we cannot feel it. With human awareness we also don’t not know the absolute truth. [even in a relative way.] So there has to be a break-through and the break-through has to take place in our universal [consciousness] And Sahaja Yoga is the method which gives you that break-through.

Interviewer: How does it do this?

Now within us is placed an energy which we call as kundalini in Sanskrit language,which is a residual energy in the triangular bone or the sacrum, also means sacred bone, so maybe the Greeks knew bout it. It rises like a primule in a seed, passes through six centres and pierces through the last one here and gives you what we call as self-realisation, or real baptism, here. That’s what it is. And then on your central nervous system you can feel it, the existence of this all-pervading power.

You can feel all around you this cool breeze. And you can feel on your fingertips your own centres which are subtle and the centres of another person, which Jung has described that one has to be collectively conscious. It’s a happening that has to take within ourselves. It is not mental. It ‘s not mental. It’s not physical. It’s not emotional. It’s beyond that.

Interviewer: How do you take to it [unclear]

Shri Mataji: [Take it] medically you can say as human beings [unclear] on the central nervous system. But the parasympathetic system is the one which brings them back to normal. Supposing you want to run. It’s an emergency. Then your sympathetic goes into action. You run fast. Your heart becomes really fast and it comes to it’s normal state by the activity on the parasympathetic which is in the centre. 

When the kundalini rises she nourishes this parasympathetic nervous system and you become in charge of that. You can handle your parasympathetic nervous system. 

Interviewer: How do you induce this rise of the kundalini in other persons.

Shri Mataji: There’s no technique about it because it is a living process. It is spontaneous. It’s something like a seed has to be put in the Mother Earth so it sprouts. It’s that simple. Even if you put your hands towards Me like this you can get your realisation. 

Interviewer: This is a wonderful example to place the seed into the soil.

Shri Mataji: Yes that’s it. Spontaneous. It’s a living process.

Interviewer: Isn’t it a bit like you want to grow it faster and therefore you pull it from the plant [unclear]

Shri Mataji: But first it must be sprouted. [unclear] If you try anything with the seed it will be spoilt. So first it should be allowed to sprout. Once it has sprouted you have to put in effort. But it has to be allowed to sprout first and then you look after it. For that we have a proper [ability] to understand what are our problems. But without you have got your realisation you cannot [make out ] what problems you have. What centres are catching? Where is the obstruction? So before that if you try anything you get spoilt. So best thing is first you get your realisation in a sense through a  very small, thread like energy this thing opens out. Then the grace comes in from the All pervading power. Relaxes your centres more and more energy starts flowing. And gradually it improves more and more. But there is a technique by which you yourself can increase the flow of this energy. But after sprouting, not before.

Interviewer: And what is the technique about? How is it?

Shri Mataji: Technique? It’s a very – depending on the person. Now see in your case. You are a very busy person, and you are very futuristic and plan a lot. You think a lot. Such a person we call as a right-sided person. And you exhaust your right side energy much more. So we have to fill in your right side energy. So a very simple method after realisation is to put your hand like this and, after realisation, not before and just you take the energy from the left side and put it on the right side. It’s very simple examples of movement of your  fingers and hands. But after realisation, not before then. Before that it has no meaning. It’s like if it’s not connected to the mains no use in using this instrument. 

Interviewer: Are there any [unclear]?

Shri Mataji: Are there any mantras you mean to say? There are mantras which are according to the centres which are caught up, which are in trouble. For example, you see this centre [agnya] between the optic chiasma is the centre of Christ. So now if the kundalini has stopped at that point then you have to take His name. It opens. But you have to be a realised soul first of all. You must have no thoughts. Then it opens out that centre. So for every centre there is a different deity and at that centre you have to take that person’s name. It’s nothing haphazard. It is very scientific. 

Interviewer: OK. Now would you say that every person is interested in Sahaja Yoga is mature to get his realisation from you? 

Shri Mataji: Not necessarily. He can give realisation. He can give realisation. They are all doing it not Me. It’s kundalini rises for some. And now they are doing it. It’s one light which is enlightened can enlighten another, but to begin with was Me. All right.  

Interviewer: How did you get it?

Shri Mataji: I was born like this. I was born with the same awareness as we call as a self realised soul. But I knew I had to do some job about it. To give realisation to one person is easy. But to give it to a mass is very difficult. So I had to understand human beings how I could manage en-mass realisation. But when I learnt it, I found out, discovered it and now I can do en-mass realisation. Especially in India. In India at least six thousand, four thousand people get realisation. But how many look after they have sprouted. The seed is there. You cannot force it. So some of them do become great trees. Some are very slow.

Interviewer: I read in the press that one of your topics is the topic of guru. How do you discriminate? A false guru is a genuine person?

Shri Mataji: I’ve talking about this since 1970 very openly. Even naming them. It’s very easy to make them out. You see they are out for money. It’s shocking. They are out for money. They know [unclear : the power of money]  It’s like demanding our blindness [economic ] activity. And anybody who asks for money [one must know he is not] Now for example your realisation is a living process and you don’t pay any money to the Mother Earth to sprout the seed. Of course but say supposing these people have started these ashrams. Now here there are so many giving.  I don’t know how [they spend, or how they live] They know all about it. I don’t know. I am very bad with money Myself. And also you see they are the ones who collect money and put up the posters and things like that. But for realisation I cannot take money. For curing you I cannot take money. I mean there’s no question. You cannot value it. These have no economic value.

Interviewer: So you would say the discrimination is if somebody is interested in money or not?

Shri Mataji: First. First chance. Second you must see the lifestyle of such a person. Supposing such a man leads a very funny life, immoral life, and tells you big stories, then you should know that this is wrong because a person who himself is not pure has no business to make others pure. There are many things described about false gurus in our scriptures thank God. And so if you see their behaviour and they say something and do something else and they have a scandalous life behind it. But the disciples just hide it because they think they will jump in the sea so let us have it. They just go through with it. They are exposed. So many of them are so badly exposed. But still the disciples find it difficult to get out because they are under their control, their spell. They know what this man is wrong, he has done so much wrong. Like [Rajneesh] had a big problem. But there are so many Germans who go to him in [unclear]. About this man I’ve told long time back that he is wrong type of person.

Interviewer: Are you working from this New Age?

Shri Mataji: Oh I see. Yes. Now these New Age people, I’ve read about them because they came to this place called as Mind and Body Exhibition  in London. They invited Me also but I didn’t go. Because you see that’s also a very money-oriented business and I don’t want to go to this Mind anything, this money business is going in the name of God or in the name of Spirit, or in the name of evolution. So I didn’t go there. They are talking of clearing the chakras. You cannot clear chakras with effort. As I told you, your kundalini has to be awakened and can be awakened only by a realised soul who is authorised to do it. Otherwise kundalini you cannot get it. So basically the mistake lies that you cannot manoeuvre with your hands. If you try anything even like acupuncture, if you try anything then you will develop imbalances within yourself.

Interviewer: Yoga tradition is different?

Shri Mataji: Yoga tradition also we use  but according to the problems of our centres. Supposing now we have a problem here [throat area] and we start doing some exercises on the stomach. What’s the use? So we should know where is the problem. You see you have to be very alert about it, to find out where’s the problem. 

Interviewer: But don’t you think you have certain chakras and then you have certain problem areas. 

Shri Mataji: Areas are  limited in Sahaja Yoga. It’s not [all the problems ] You find the chakras are are caught up. It’s like taking all the medicines. Hatha Yoga, modern Hatha Yoga is like this that you take all the medicines all the time whether you need it or not and can be very difficult especially I have seen people who do Hatha Yoga have a problem on the heart and also become very dry. Mostly they have emotional problems and also they have divorces. It’s very common because they become very dry. Lot of, you see, imbalances. They are not integrated. It’s not only physical being that you live for. You are here for your spiritual being. Physical being is looked after by the spiritual being later on once you are a realised soul. You don’t go to doctors after that and so many diseases are cured automatically so people give up all their bad habits, drugs, this that, automatically. I don’t have to do anything. It’s your own kundalini. It’s your own power. Once you are awakened you become your own guru. You don’t need a guruette. 

Interviewer: What is your tradition? The tradition of Sahaja Yoga? Since when does it exist as an idea?

Shri Mataji: I think from times immemorial because this is the only way you can raise the kundalini by a realised soul. But it used to be only once. One person maybe. Two persons maybe. Like you can say the tree of life has one or two flowers to begin with. But today is the blossom time. That’s what I am thinking of [ unclear: Mataji for].

Interviewer: There is no founder or some mythical person.

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, nothing mythical. But Nanaka has talked about it. Kabira has talked about it. Adi Shankaracharya has talked about it. Fourteen thousand years back Markandeya has talked about it. Fact, only problem is this that today what I have done is to give it to masses. Any discovery if it doesn’t go to the masses, it is of no use.

Interviewer: Doesn’t go to the what?

Shri Mataji: Masses.  En-mass. Masses – many. 

Interviewer: Many people, oh I see. There’s also Hatha yoga, Nama yoga. 

Shri Mataji: Raja Yoga is also a very big misconception because people don’t know what is Raja Yoga so they try to – I don’t know they have got something very artificial. Given an analogy is this way. Like when the kundalini rises automatically within us [ unclear] the holding of the kundalini takes place. Of course it’s a mechanism that works the whole thing. All right? Automatically, spontaneously. But what they do is like without starting the car they start moving the wheels.  The car won’t move. They do all these things which are described when the kundalini rises. Yet it is a spontaneous happening innately done within yourself. It is not that you can do it from outside. So when they talk of Raja Yoga what do they say? They [ unclear] cut the tongue of people. I’ve seen people whose tongues were cut because it is said that when the kundalini rises then kedgeree takes place meaning your tongue is pulled inside. So they used to cut their tongue. Put it back here. All kinds of nonsensical tortures. Even now. There is no need to torture your body. 

Interviewer: But there’s no proof that the system’s wrong and this is really. And this is a very extreme.

Shri Mataji: Extreme style but they used to do it. They used to go to that stage I’m telling you. Extreme I’m telling you. Otherwise they would make people sit down for hours together and hold your stomach, hold your neck and do all kinds of horrible things [ unclear] You don’t have to torture yourself. [happen ]Or to torture yourself or to suffer. We want you to enjoy everything.

Interviewer: What about Karma yoga, Bhakti yoga.

Shri Mataji: You see now karma yoga is only for human beings that whatever we have done we have to suffer this life and all that. Now in this lifetime when the kundalini rises She comes up t o the agnya chakra, and that chakra is the one where Christ is residing and Christ has died for our faults. Once for all. Once He is awakened He has died for all of us for our sins. Agna chakra goes out [ unclear] Actually our karma is what you call in the ego and superego as described by Jung and these two things close our fontanel bone area. But as soon as the kundalini passes through agnya between the optic chiasma these open like a lotus and the kundalini comes up and you can feel the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost on top of your head. So is the awakening of the kundalini.

Interviewer: I mean then the whole problem of karma is solved.

Shri Mataji:  Of course. Of course. It has to come through that. That’s what it is. It has to be because it is so vital. Anything vital has to be propagated. For example breathing is so vital to us. For that if you have to go to some guru or to read some books, what would happen?  It is so vital that we should get it. And that has happened now. 

Interviewer: How about Buddha for instance was talking about the way [unclear ] he was beating himself.

Shri Mataji:  Yes he did but that time is over now we have passed through that point. Those times are over now. Buddha himself was so surprised later on that if you talk about God, see people start thinking [unclear] and this and that. He said don’t talk about God. Just talk of self-realisation that all because he wanted to pin down people to the real way of progressing and not to just indulge into unnecessary ritualism and this and that. That’s why he said it. But actually those times are over and you can get your realisation. It is proven now. They all have got it. They all have high kundalinis you all see their faces. They don’t go to doctors. They are feeling all right. They are having a nice time.  

Interviewer :  In the traditional books there is described that each chakra is combined with magical capabilities.

Shri Mataji: Of course. It is.

Interviewer: Those people were all sorcerers and [unclear. ]

Shri Mataji: Yes. They know about it. Every chakra has a different quality. Like the first chakra is the chakra of our excretion, excretes everything from us. And it has a special quality that it is the one that gives us holiness. Auspiciousness. Wisdom. The second chakra gives us aesthetics. The second chakra is – shall we say enlightened or is awakened by the kundalini then people suddenly become aesthetics. We have many like that and they become suddenly great scientists. Recently one boy has  discovered a unique type of a, what you call it  [switch] which would not normally have been discovered. So like that every chakra has a guru regardless. 

Interviewer:   [unclear] this chakra here.

Shri Mataji: Centre heart. 

Interviewer: Yes the ability to understand animals. The language of animals.

Shri Mataji: No, not like language of animals that’s not so. This central chakra is guarded by Jagadamba. The mother of the earth. The mother of the universe is here. But this has got antibodies. This chakra creates antibodies. Antibodies are what you call [unclear ] They can fight your diseases. And that’s what is created by these chakras and now, for example, Aids is caused by the deficiency of this chakra and also the first chakra. If you could balance these two chakras you can cure any [source] [unclear] 

Interviewer: And this is only one of the abilities of which you spoke

Shri Mataji: Yes but with the animals you don’t have to talk to them but they understand you through your vibrations. You have such vibrations that animals know that you are a realised soul. [unclear] A horse will know. A dog will know. But not all of them. Some of them can be sinister also. But they are frightened of you. If they are sinister they are frightened. But if they are good they will come to you and will be very nice to you. But I would not say they understand the [their language] or anything else. But they understand each others heart. That’s enough because that’s the Mother’s centre. A very important centre. But as a result of the defectiveness in this centre women can develop a kind of a trouble in their breasts, breast cancer is possible. So many problems are caused [unclear ]

Interviewer: [unclear] is to come back to the question of the New Age. Because one of the signs of the New Age is that you are travelling around in.

Shri Mataji: Yes you see the joy comes back. You see we have a very great artist from India who came here in the [ unclear: ] a Muslim gentleman.  He said these are all [unclear. prophets ] These are all pure people, promised people. So you are making the [ Palestine here]. I said yes this is the Palestine [unclear  I described]. [unclear ] where there is war and killing and all that going on – that’s not Palestine. These are [ unclear] the pure people. He was describing all the prophecies. In India there was a prophecy done by a very old astrologer. I think he was the first [ unclear] of astrology, and he is the one who said, “such and such a time is going to come and the kundalini is going to be awakened and that people are going to get this blessing. And this will be the New Age. And that people will become realised. Even William Blake has so carefully said. William Blake has said that – I mean his prophecies are such a detail in that even in London where our ashram is, he has described it. To that extent. It’s all there.

Interviewer: One last question which maybe not the [ unclear] What is the place of morality in your system?

Shri Mataji: Is innate. Is innate. I don’t have to tell you don’t do this, don’t do that. It’s all innate. As soon as you get the light you drop the sins that’s all. You don’t have to ask Me, it just works out. The morality works by itself. It’s innate. You know that [ unclear] It’s just innate. You become moral without My telling you. 

Interviewer: This is really a complete different way than tradition says because tradition says that there’s a very hard way.

Shri Mataji:  No, no.

Interviewer: You have to believe in certain ways [ yama yama]

Shri Mataji: [ yama yama] Is all right because this was thousands of years back you see. Hatha Yoga started thousands of years back. For that they used to select one of the persons for realisation. At the time of Rama there was one only that [ Chakita] was going to marry – Janaka. He was the only person who could give realisation. And also [ ] would make him run up and down he hanged the sword on his head, did everything he said and then he gave him realisation. So it was a different thing. Today the time is different as I say it is the blossom time. Times have changed. 

Interviewer: And do you think they have improved?

Shri Mataji: You see we have ripened. We have matured. We have gone through all those experiences. We have done all [unclear] these things in last lives and now is the time for you to get your fruits.

Interviewer: How is it that human society has ripened or has improved? If you look throughout the world and more horrors than ever. More people have [ unclear]

Shri Mataji:  It has to be. It has to be at the worst time that we’ll be having it. It’s different now in the [hindy] There was one fellow called [ Kali] and his wife was separated by his cunning. The one who is with him now the modern times deity. Kalijuga and she got hold of this kali and said I am going to kill you because you are the one [who has unsettled the country ] confusion all demoralisation and everything so better I kill you. He said, See I have also got super powers so what is your importance. He said the importance is at the time when you will all kalijuga, horrible things that at this time of kalijuga. That’s the time those who are seeking me in the hills and dales will become powerful householders and they will get their realisation.  He said it. So this is the time. Not only the time but the maturity comes through repressing all these things. That’s why they are taking to it. Why there is so much seeking today? Because they see all these things. So there are people who are just ready. I agree with you [unclear] it looks horrible like a plant full of worms but I have seen lotuses coming out of it. Like [fragrant ] lotuses unique flower. And you have small little, little lotuses also. [unclear ] You love to see them. The world can be easily changed. It’s difficult for people to understand that it is true. That’s the only truth. Because you see they – I don’t know in what world they live. They don’t believe in it. I’ve seen these people are here that people have been cured by so many people. Have enjoyed Sahaja Yoga. But still it happens. I think it will come. 

India is a easier place to work out Sahaja Yoga because they know about it and they have felt it. They cannot do shopping. They cannot do guru shopping. They are not so rich. So all the gurus have come down here you see to [unclear ] Some of them have been very, very poor, very poor people. They understood so many people, made so much money. 

Interviewer: So they are false gurus? 

Shri Mataji: Horrible. You can’t make money out of it at all. And one gentleman who came from BBC told Me that Anglo Saxon brain cannot understand anything without money. What do you say to that? 

Interviewer: I think it’s not true.

Shri Mataji: It’s not true. Because how can it be. How much money did you pay to Christ? To any one of the real saints that I’ve seen. But the whole system is like [unclear ] I am sure it will work out. It has to spread and it will work out no doubt. See the happiness on their faces.

Interviewer: [unclear ] Surely there are easier ways. 

Shri Mataji: For what?

Interviewer: There are easier ways.

Shri Mataji: Rama, Krishna [unclear] I give realisation to everyone.

Interviewer: Oh yes.

Shri Mataji: No one [unclear ] realisation. 

Interviewer: You show them how to make it themselves?

Shri Mataji: Nothing of the kind. You’d be surprised the people established Adi Shakti on the heads of [unclear]

Interviewer:  [ unclear] Rama, Krishna today.

Shri Mataji:  But what I am saying Rama, Krishna had not done this kind of work. You see He just lectured, that’s all.  Because I have done it. So he [unclear ] I mean I wouldn’t call Him an authoritative person. Those who have done the work of realisation are the people called as [our desire. And their being as ] Very few  of them in fact. He had ten [unclear] who He gave realisation to. And if you see Nanaka he did it. Kabira did it. They have talked about it. Nobody has said that without kundalini you can do realisation. Those who have not done this kind of work they cannot say.  They cannot say. You see authority should be used for people who have done this. Those who have not done it, how can they say? You see authority used over people who have done this. Those who have not done it, how can they say

I know that Rama, Krishna did not. All the work in the  Rama, Krishna [unclear ] what I find is that they have no idea of it. They are dying of cancer most of them. It’s very bad. I am really sorry for them because dying of cancer means that there is something definitely wrong and they have no knowledge about it, about the chakras. Nothing. 

Interviewer: One possibility was that [Nanaka himself ]

Shri Mataji: You can find out the statistics. How many have died of cancer from Rama, Krishna [worship] It’s rather surprising because the other day I met a lady who has been an ardent disciple of Rama, Krishna and is suffering from a very bad cancer. Very. Actually the day she came  [doctor] who is a Sahaja Yogi. He said, “Mother such heat comes from them”. So that means they have no idea of chakras, They don’t know how to do it. So that part they never – actually he was trying to prepare people for sort of moral life and dharmic life and all that. But this [this time they didn’t go ]   because to get into kundalini one has to have the knowledge of it. Has to be [unclear ] towards it. Even I would say supposing you are a born realised. You could be. Anybody could be a born realised. Still I would not say that he isn’t capable of raising the kundalini because he doesn’t know. 

You can be a born realised but to know the knowledge you have to understand it from some authority otherwise it is of no use.  So you have to be [unclear]. You have to be all right. That’s why we call them Sahaja Yogis. We don’t  call them yogis – Sahaja Yogis. Means they have the knowledge about kundalini. They know the problems of kundalini. They know how to raise the kundalini. They know how to save themselves from others problems. So unless and until they have that much knowledge plus realisation established we don’t call them Sahaja Yogis. So you have to become. It’s a question of becoming.  In Sahaja Yoga I cannot  just say that you become now. You are a Sahaja Yogi. Cannot blind [unclear ] You have to become and becoming is that maturity of knowledge.

Interviewer: An example.  It’s my impression that when you are talking about kundalini it sounds as if you are talking about to a domesticated pet, like a small dog, which is very nice. Or a cat which you can – very easy. The idea that the kundalini is a very, very intensive energy which you are dealing with.

Shri Mataji:  No,no,no. It is intensive. It’s your Mother. It’s your individual Mother. She is like the tape recorder who has taped everything about you. All right? But supposing I do it. Then there must be something about Me. Why not put the other way round? If I can do it, raising the kundalini – must be something about Me. Maybe I am like Mother Earth. Like I can sprout the seeds for you see, maybe. Why not put the attention to that side. Maybe I don’t want to talk about Myself. But there is definitely something I can do. No doubt.

Interviewer: Yes but I mean is it right, riding a vehicle is your answer, this kundalini is a very, very intensive energy or is it a harmless creature like er like a pet.

Shri Mataji: No is it an energy of pure desire. Is an energy of pure desire. All other desires are impure because no desire makes you satisfied. So this is an energy of pure desire in you. It is waiting all the time for your  [unclear]. But it has to be awakened by a person authorised by the Divine. Not by any church, by any chapel by anyone. But a person who has authority

Interviewer: I do not think that the person who has the most authority to awaken one’s kundalini, one’s kundalini is..

Shri Mataji: I think they have but now I think [I will make] another one for the time being. If I meet someone I’ll be very happy. But somebody who has to have authority, the knowledge. Like all of them can raise the kundalini [ unclear] no problem. All of them can. But if they start taking money they lose the power. If they start misbehaving they lose the power. That’s how the kundalini is very intelligent. She understands and She loves you and She will not allow you to do anything wrong. She co-ordinates. She co-operates. She is tremendous no doubt, but She’s not harmful. She loves you.

Interviewer: I believe She is something which is neutral?

 Shri Mataji: She is not attached to you but She loves you. In a sense there is in her detachment She wants you to get your realisation because she is your Mother and you have to have your realisation. That’s very important. That’s Her desire for ages now.  That’s why you are a seeker because she’s there. 

Interviewer: Aha. So is this the same like Atma?

Shri Mataji: No. Atma is a Spirit in the heart. I will tell you from another side. We can say that God Almighty is reflected in your heart as Atma, all right, and the Kundalini is the power of God. His desire that we all should get our realisation. She is reflected in you as Kundalini, as the Holy Ghost. So this kundalini has to rise and meet the Atma because though it is in the heart the seat of Atma is here, in the centre here in the fontanelle bone area. That’s why She has to rise and touch it so a connection is established. 

Interviewer: [Unclear] because it is said that the Atma is the one who, which is inside you and the way that you discover it.

Shri Mataji: Yes, That’s good. Now I will give an analogy in modern times you have lots of [unclear] . You can see in a gas you see. Now the gas is the air, for example you see the kundalini an energy. There’s a little light flickering when this gas meets that light your attention becomes enlightened. Just an analogy up to a point you should say.  

Interviewer: I see an explosion should be happening.

Shri Mataji: No. There’s no explosion because they understand, they know. Actually you would be surprised how beautifully She works. How She comes into you. Like somebody has an obstruction on the nabhi chakra. You will be surprised She pulsates. Even in the triangular bone just like your heart and She suggests to you that this is a problem. Now try to correct it. Any problem She suggests and She’s so beautiful  the way she handles so gently your personalities. She never wants harm you in any way. If there is too much obstruction She goes down.

Interviewer: You mean it’s a force that wants equilibrium?

Shri Mataji: Yes you have to have balance. You have to have equilibrium. If the balance is upside  down. If there is any obstruction because of that imbalance She settles it. 

Interviewer: How much are you  influenced by Christian ideas. 

Shri Mataji: Do you mean Christianity or Christ?

Interviewer: I don’t know. Define it I mean whatever is important.

Shri Mataji: Christ is very much there, no doubt.  But Christianity – I don’t know but like all other religions they are diluted. There was a book recently which I read, agnostic. Which you might also have heard about it. Saint Thomas on his way to India wrote this thing and put it in a jar in Egypt. It was found about forty eight years back. ‘Gn’ in Sanskrit means to know  and in that whatever he has written challenges all Christian ideas. First is that they must suffer – that it was almost to suffer for Him and all these ideas of Christianity. We should confess our sins and all that has been challenged. 

So about Christianity I was also born in a Christian religion and I was quite surprised  the way we are following Christ because if we had followed Him properly, first He has said it that you have to be born again. And when He said that and then we branded ourselves. We are born again just like so many people brand themselves as Baptists. But you are not born again because a born-again person has powers, has powers of raising the kundalini. So like that, Christ has said that you are to be born again meaning that you have to have the kundalini awakened. It’s very clearly given in our chakras that a bird is born as a bijaha. Is born twice and a brahmin is called also called a bijaha means born twice. Means the brahmin has one birth as a human being and second birth as a brahmin where he knows the [brahmin?], this all-pervading power. In the same way a bird is born as an egg and then is re-born as a bird. So this is what is clearly given. That you are to be born again, means that you have to get your realisation. 

Christ has said so many things and He said thou shalt not have adulterous eyes. Now tell me Christians what they think about their eyes. Why is He telling us in this way? Why has it to be everywhere. The problem with them is that they have not followed Christ as they should do. And it’s all diverted. The whole thing is so diverted. Also I don’t understand why Paul is in the Bible. Paul had nothing to do with Christ. He was a  [unclear] He was the one who killed Stephen. He was the one who killed so many Christians. He just had this supra-conscious experience of God finished. He was an organiser and do you know now Protestants are going so far to say that Christ was a human being finished. Because they can’t go anywhere near Him so why was he a human being. They even go up to the point of saying he was homosexual. What do you say to that? I mean they are all saying every sort of thing about Him  who was the only Son of God.

Interviewer: Buddha was saying He was nobody but a human being [unclear ] but a human being.

Shri Mataji: One has to say that. You see it’s very dangerous because Christ has said that [ unclear: some of us] must have learnt a lesson and I say that because I have learnt a lesson also. Because you see human beings are so mad and if you tell them anything [ unclear] they’ll just come and hit you. You should talk to sane people. They are not sane you tell them anything I am [this and this ]. If you are false they follow you but if you are real  [they’ll kill you ] There’s something so cunning about human beings but [unclear ] was the other way around.

Interviewer: You are talking about God as a real entity. As an existing entity to God existing.  Is this something for you? 

Shri Mataji: Of course. What I am saying is true but I would say in modern times as they didn’t want to talk about God – I can talk about God for at least two years. Fine. [or what ] But in modern times if you talk about God half of the people will leave the hall. But gradually I will convince them that there is God, God exists.  You have to just ask questions like a computer, when you are a realised soul. You ask the question. If you say Mother is there God and they should start flowing. Supposing relative use [ eyes] Like a computer. It works like a computer. We ask another question let’s say. Supposing somebody comes before Me – he starts shaking like this. You say that you are following a false guru that’s why you are shaking. And the person will say – how do you say because I am shaking there is because of my powers. So you get another one who is suffering, from lunatic asylum, coming from lunacy you see. You ask him. He will also shake. So letting him see what you are. It has happened many a times. If Buddha had said that you are not a brahmin and all that,  but I never told him, his followers never told him you are having a problem. Suddenly I said, “Who are Bramins among you?” So five, six of them came and sat before Me. We are Bramins. I said, “All right you are Bramins so put your hands towards Me. They started shaking. I said, “Why are you shaking?” They said, “You are shakti so we are shaking. I said, “all right but why are you shaking.”Nobody is shaking except for you. I said, “The others are shaking there. Ask them why”. So they said we are certified mad people from a lunatic asylum. I’ve come because one person has been cured by You.” So the Bramins came forward all right. As you say, the Divine comes to My hand you know, otherwise you know [ unclear] They think God is in their pockets. I am happy you are for New Age but try to understand there is the New Age. Everything has a camouflage. When I  went to America people told me that Mother you had better get your copyright. I said, “What copyright?” “You must get copyright otherwise they’ll use your voice. I said,  “This a very good idea. Why should I take credit for  anything [ vibrations, chakras]” What about kundalini rising? You can’t do it. Using all My words. Listen to My lectures long time back and using all My words and all My knowledge but they are superficial. That’s all it is. You have to have your realisation. And there’s no harm. You take your realisation, you give realisations to others. But if you want to make money with My words. If you want to make an organisation with My words then I can’t help you. I’m sorry.  All right? 

Interviewer: Ok. Thank you very much. How long are you going to stay?

Shri Mataji: Tomorrow I’m going to France. Then the day after tomorrow we are going back to London. These people are  [missed Me ] very much. We have to go back to America. I am in the West for about three or four months.  My husband is in London so I’ll go straight there. And I also have to go to India a household I have bought.

Interviewer: You have devotees also in London or

Shri Mataji: Everywhere.  Fifteen countries. Fifteen countries we have. There are lots of them they are all English born. But we have a point. We don’t advertise too much. We don’t have things on display and all that because. You see the problem with Sahaja Yoga is you have to become. Its the point. You have to have really honest people who are really honestly seeking and who want to become. There’s no question of just having plastic growth in Sahaja Yoga. You have to have real flowers. 

I started, you’ll be surprised in England I started with seven of them. I got four years. The English lack something in My photograph. But once they break I tell you they are [ joyous] It took four years to [Unclear ] Very difficult, very sceptical over the – this thing, that thing. But now they are scholars of Sahaja Yoga. Scholars. There’s no judgement book isn’t it.  No book about Sahaja Yoga. Also I am not very much of writing lots of books because if you read too much then also you become something else, not yourself. So best is first to get your realisation and then you can read. Before that reading is useless. You see reading, reading makes a person mad. And also Kabira has said that why Indian people have become mad. He said it.

Interviewer: It depends what you are reading no? 

Shri Mataji: Even then. You see what happens that when you are reading and you are seeking by words you cannot reach them. Like Adi Shankaracharya has said  [hindy] He says Mother take me out of the [hindy ] That’s why reading is all right after realisation you can understand what is what, what is good, but not much, not too much of it, because it can make you see, confusion. As it is in these modern times, confusion is [ unclear: swadha] And these people also create confusion out with this banner and that banner and that banner. 

In Sahaja Yoga there is nothing. All religions, we know, all prophets we know. We know what – Mohammed Sahib has said that the time of resurrection [ unclear] their hands will speak and they will give witness against you. He said. Every  one of them but later on when people follow them they will be [unclear] because they are not realised souls.  

Interviewer: So Sahaja Yoga doesn’t depend on any guru. [ unclear] Never mind if there’s a crisis because [unclear. ]

Shri Mataji: Of course. Of course. [ unclear] It brings out the best. Because they have not accepted anything blindly. They are the best. They are the best people. They are the best.

Sahaja Yogi: We make follow up programs. After Shri Mataji’s leaving we make follow up programs but even there we can give self realisation.

Interviewer: You give self realisation.

Shri Mataji: Of course, of course. You can also do it.

Interviewer: That’s a paradox.

Sahaja Yogi: You can have it now if you want. Sahaja Yogi begins giving self realisation to the Interviewer: 

Shri Mataji: Be comfortable that’s all. And don’t feel guilty. That’s one other thing you are not to feel guilty at all about anything at all. You must know you are a temple of God. You must respect yourself. Forgive yourself also. [ That’s the only catch you have.] Are you feeling any cool breeze in the hands? Now don’t doubt yourself. Believe in yourself. Now put your left hand on top of your head and see if there’s a cool breeze coming.  On top of your own head. A little higher. 

Interviewer: Yes. 

Shri Mataji: Now just ask Me a question. Put the hands like this. Just call me Mother it’s better. Mother is this the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost? Just ask this question. 

Interviewer: Mother is this the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost? three times.

Shri Mataji: You get warmth in the hands when you ask this question​?

Interviewer: Yes in the left hand.   

Shri Mataji: Right. That’s your right side. Now for right sided people. Left to right. I am giving you your balance. You have to just forgive everyone. Just forgive them and you might think it’s difficult. It’s not. It’s a myth. Whether you forgive or don’t forgive makes no difference, isn’t it. Just by saying that I forgive alone is all right. Just say Mother I forgive everyone fifteen times. From your heart. 

Shri Mataji continues to work on him. This is what you asked Me the technique. There’s no thought you see. There’s no thought. Better now. That’s what is the balance now. Can you come forward more. You have not forgiven really. To be very honest. All right. Now let’s see.

Shri Mataji: You get pain here sometimes? {left shoulder} Vishuddhi. You are too tall. And you have to talk to all kinds of people. Your eyes. You are short-sighted also.

Interviewer: Yes.

Shri Mataji: All right. That can be cured. Very easy. You can come and ask these people if you are in a hurry to go now. It’s very easy to cure the short sighted. And they will tell you how to do it.  It’s very simple.  Too much pain. Right nabhi. 

Interviewer: It’s cool. 

Shri Mataji: He told me that there’s a very nice man who has come. You must know how to use it that’s all. Now you’ve got your realisation, it’s sprouted. You can give realisation to people.  You must learn how to do it that’s all. It’s very simple. Left agnya is there but now if he comes next, any time you cure his left nabhi the short-sighted will go away. Left agnya. He has [unclear. Left nabhi ] problem. 

Interviewer: This was the beginning that I promise to you that you need expert to become better and better.

Shri Mataji: I think I will tell you what’s to be done for his left agnya. You take his address and I’ll tell you what’s to be done for him. You have so many brothers and sisters all over the world now. Just imagine I shall read about you in London and to finally get somebody who is [unclear].   

Shri Mataji: What work do you do?

Yogini: Advertising.

Sahaja Yogini is working on a woman sitting in front of  Her. She is at present in Switzerland Shri Mataji. She works in advertising.

Shri Mataji: You tell me you have to tell lots of lies. It’s better you find some other job. They will say  this cream will make you young. [unclear] makes you old. I never use any cream. [unclear] This job is bad. You see you can tell all kinds of lies. 

Sahaja Yogini: In the newspaper, advertising. I have to do it nearly naked. A small bikini you know. A very small bikini lying in the sand. 

Shri Mataji: You have to do that?

Yogini: Yes.

Shri Mataji: Please sit down. What do you do. You make a picture?

Yogini: Yes.

Shri Mataji: Advertising does not really tell the truth.  You should get some ice in a plastic bag. But you can find some other job and do the drawing. Design. What design dresses?

Sahaja Yogini [unclear] 

Shri Mataji: You see the modern style of dresses is very funny. I asked somebody to design some dresses for Mothers Day. Really very funny you know. I said no Indian woman would wear that. Horrible. But the kind of a dress you have it doesn’t [unclear] I don’t  know. How many people like dresses like this here? Actually nowadays -about fifty years back this fashion business started. And once fashion starts everybody likes it. [unclear] Very bad fashion also. I just don’t understand. Nowadays the hair is brown you must make it – what colour, funny. Everybody is doing that. I just don’t understand. Everybody must have a personality. Why should you do everybody the same thing. Then you only pay for the [unclear]. But why to have fantasy also about clothes?  I just don’t understand. Now in India we wear saris. Every sari is so beautifully done. Bring My sari with My [unclear] There’s one blue sari. Bring saris for them. That means you can use it as much as you like. [unclear] The women dress so beautifully. And if I am wearing a sari another won’t wear the same thing in India. If  you see someone wearing the same thing normally they don’t have a family. [unclear] Afterwards you can make a dress out of it. [unclear] is no good. You can have [unclear ] really [unclear ] that’s all right but why make it disfigure you, the way these days [] This kind of a bikini you wear, you go in the sun and get your skin diseases.

The one with the deep blue [unclear] So much energy used. If you people take to sari [unclear ] What will happen to the tailors? The sari [unclear] You have to go to the shop. [ What is there in fashion to advertise?] You just have to select which one you like. This one – about 700, 800 rupees. The whole [personality] in the Western mind is that women must expose their body. Why? Because men must think you are [unclear ] If the women have to expose their bodies then what is the difference between the cheap woman and the good woman? Dogs will  do the same won’t they. On the street you will find them. So why a woman should expose herself. What is the reason? 

Yogini: To sell the product. In our case it’s to sell the product. The sun cream product. This is an example for the people to do it. To use it. 

Shri Mataji: These people have no brains. What is the need to suntan yourself? She wants to [ ] racialism because of her skin. Does anyone tan to become dark lady? You can’t explain. What’s the matter. Such a – very difficult to understand. [unclear ] in London, with all my husband’s big position in London and everything [black people] And here they are sitting in the sun to burn their skin to become black. What’s the logic? According to them black colour is beautiful look. Isn’t it. [unclear] So stupid to expose your women [ some self-respect] I’ve seen at a party a gentleman comes to me [unclear] exposure. An Indian lady always the time trying to cover herself.  She knows. You want this crazy job? What do you get out of it? Nothing. 

We had one lady from India high official and she saw this business of flirting. I said, “What are you doing? I couldn’t understand why she was flirting. She said, “Women like to look at men. Men like to look at women”. Why? I said, “This is flirting”.  I said “Why? What is the reason?” She said, [unclear] somebody else’s wife, why not enjoy the your own wife? What is the logic? Crazy. Crazy I tell you. Indians are the other way round. They say you advertise too much. They say why are you advertising.              

Shri Mataji gets the yogini to say many times, “Mother I will leave this advertising.” There are so many other jobs you can get.

Horrible. Anybody coming from Raja Krishna ashram we just don’t allow him to come here.

Sahaja Yogi: Shri Mataji they are dying of cancer.

Apart from him dying of cancer, everybody is dying of cancer.  Everyonr is dying of cancer. So what’s the use of taking these horrible people? He is the one who [unclear: talked too much.]

You are better now you see you have to do it this way. Put your feet in the water with salt. Right hand towards the photograph and left hand towards [unclear]

Sahaja Yogi:  There’s a lady here, she’s a doctor here and she has quite a serious disease also. Bacterial and the first stage of growth affecting the central nervous system. It’s not curable by [unclear] doctors. It’s caused by a little insect which goes in the skin and from there the bacteria is spread. You get encephalitis. Tick infection it has spread in the central nervous system. It’s sometimes mental. [Mother uses three candles]  Its an insect that goes under the skin and from there the bacteria is spread. It is spread in the central nervous system. She can’t move her legs. The muscles get infected and also mentally she is not aware. One [candle before her and one near her swadistana. 

Shri Mataji: Her swadistan is caught up. Now put her right to the left. Give yourself a bandhan.