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TV Interview. Geneva (Switzerland), 10 August 1989.
Question: What is a seeker, please.
Shri Mataji: Seeker is a special category of human beings which are born in this modern times – whom William Blake has clearly described and he said that men of God at this times they will be born and they will know divinity, and they will have power to make others also – very clearly said, William Blake.
Question: [UNCLEAR] about Jung.
Shri Mataji: Jung, Jung. [UNCLEAR] See, he sought for himself the truth. He didn’t accept Freud. And he thought that there is something wrong with it, then he has spent a lot with philosophy and I think he came to India. And not only that but he got his Realization. And after getting Self Realization he wrote about collective consciousness, he wrote so many things which we can now feel it ourselves. And he was a man who gave him good pictures, what will happen to men when they get self realization. I should say we should be very obliged to him for doing [UNCLEAR] It was not just a mental projection but it was a actual finding of his own divinity.
Question: As we know Jung was a Swiss man, do you have any particular message for Swiss people.
Shri Mataji: You see, you saw that people were seen [UNCLEAR] which were very similar to the images of the festivals they have of the whole thing. And he started finding why these people have those images. So such images, according to him, happened in past; they are going into their past when they sleep. And that’s how they could see the same images in their past, like that. He was a, I must say that he was a very dynamic and brave man to fight, such a formidable myth of Freud, because also he was doing so [UNCLEAR] very, very remarkable and the Swiss, I must say, are very enthusiastic about giving the truth to people and I wish the Swiss do the same, that new people [UNCLEAR] thing. Only when I address the [UNCLEAR] of the Indian society. [UNCLEAR] but I knew he was a great soul. So I went into his book and he was like that.
But I saw a little place where he didn’t understand the totality, and that point was here when he said that the unconscious was not the whole, it was the subconscious, collective subconscious, then consciousness, and conscious mind, and then he said that the supra conscious and all that, he put then in layers parallel in the body. But they don’t exist that way. They exist on the left and the right. You see because our creator is the greatest organizer, if you have to go to the airport, you don’t have to go through your luggage, everything – there is a passage for us, so he has kept a passage within. And it is kept on the left is the sub-conscious and collective subconscious. And the right is the supraconscious and the [UNCLEAR]. And in the center the path is absolutely left, absolutely clean, may be by our ignorance we spoil it, but otherwise the central path is absolutely clean. I think that’s why many [Buddhists] started going to the subconscious, there is no need. It’s not the way out. That was the only place where I found that he couldn’t see the totality of the thing but that’s not so important because afterwards the said so many things.
Question: We are talking about collective unconscious, in which period are we really now?
Shri Mataji: This is a special period, in which the collective subconscious [UNCLEAR] becomes thoughtless. Collective consciousness is the one that is all around us, that is the subtle energy. And this subtle energy is the one that does every living work, every living work. Like this flower now. You see, the flowers, to us it’s not a miracle. It’s a miracle if you see them. All living work is done by that collective unconscious – which we call as Brahma Chaitanya in Sanskrit language. So now it is going to be conscious in the sense that we are going to feel it ourselves, that cool breeze in your hand.
Question: If you can tell something about your teachings, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Actually teachings are none I should say, because main thing is that, I just tried to explain to you, that there is this collective unconscious around us and that you have to feel it. Unless and until you feel it, no use giving lectures about it. First you must have the experience of it and in that light you can see everything very clearly. So my only teachings are that first you should try to feel that unconscious. That is only possible when you get your Self Realization. And you should first get your Self Realization. That is the main point. And Buddha also didn’t talk about God, what’s the use? He said, “First get your Self Realization.”
So we have to only understand that we are not at an absolute point. Human beings are living in a relative world. We are relatively living in it. So everything has a confusion. Because some people say, “We are right, we are right”. But nobody knows what is right. So to know the right you must get connected to something that is absolute and the absolute is the collective unconscious. This is my only teaching means that you just get to the understanding that we have to have Self Realization. And once you get to it then you can work it out. But if you do not get it to that point then you can force it.
Yogi: Once upon a time the disciples used to go through austerity for many years, to cleanse them to get their Self Realization. Now this is upside down in Sahaja Yoga. First you get your Realization and then you clean yourself.
Shri Mataji: You see, these days people have no time. [UNCLEAR] watching all the time. Because there is no way to give Self Realization. Then when I thought all of these things, you see, I knew my mission was to give collective Realization. And to give collective Realization, I wanted to study human beings, what problems they have. Now their problems are that can be resolved using very simple things. Because there are only seven centers and three channels. So you have to just put your attention to these three channels and the seven centers and if you can manage the permutations and combinations – you can reach the awareness collectively. It’s not difficult, that is something I found out. And that’s why I thought that, “First give them a little light.” When they will have a little light they can see themselves what’s wrong with them.
Because if you tell somebody, this is wrong with you in those days, then he will put you in jail. So the best thing is to have little patience with them and see that they get little light and to see that something higher exists. Like if we are living on the ground floor, we are not aware that there are higher things. But if somehow we can go on to 2nd or 3rd floor, then we start thinking there is higher and higher things. So this is what do Sahaja Yoga, is first to give them realization. Of course some people get it like a jet, because this is jet era, this is the time of jet. And they just settle down, some of them are, tremendously. Very young people also gets. Just get fixed. But some of them are conditioned, have problems with them, some have got emotional problems, and some have ego. Most of them have ego. So this has to be little bit shown to them, “This is your ego.” Once they start seeing their ego, they will leave it.
Question: Which are the conditions we have to fulfill in order to get our Self Realization?
Shri Mataji: One thing very important is not to feel guilty. Not to feel guilty at all. Because this is also a very funny human understanding. Animals never feel guilty. Dog will eat whatever he likes, a cat will eat mice but nobody feels guilty about it. Only we human beings feel guilty. And after all we are human beings. We are not gods, we can make mistakes. So there is nothing to feel guilty at all. And what I have talked of this unconscious – is the ocean of forgiveness. That’s all.
And second condition is that you have to forgive everyone. Now many people say it is very difficult to forgive. But it’s a myth. Whether you forgive or don’t forgive what you do. If you don’t forgive then you are playing into wrong hands. Absolutely in wrong hands. After all you are actually fulfilling the desire of the people who tried to harm you. So just try to forgive. And this is what Christ has said that you have to forgive. He has given us a very big weapon of forgiveness. And if people do not forgive I can not give them Realization. Because the door of Christ which we call as Agnya chakra in Sahaja Yoga, is very narrow. And as soon as we start pondering or thinking about how he had harmed and how we are tortured [UNCLEAR]. So to open this only you have to just say that I forgive everyone. It acts. It works.
Shri Mataji: First to feel that you have to be human being. In your own being you have to come up. In your own being and in your own faith. Otherwise you can’t improve [UNCLEAR] anyone.
Question: Now there is big Guru market [UNCLEAR]. What do you think about it?
Shri Mataji: You see the Guru market is inevitable because they have come to know that there are seekers and the seeking part. Now those who have money have a feeling that they can purchase a guru and they can buy their spiritual ascent. They don’t know it’s a living process and you can’t pay for it, nor can you buy your guru. If you can buy someone, if you can pay someone then he is your servant he is not your guru. So people who have money, specially in the West, always go to false gurus. And false gurus also have attraction for the rich people. That’s why Christ had said that a camel can pass through a hole of a needle but not rich people. The reason is these people have an ego that they can purchase even God. Surprising. And that’s why these false gurus have got strength. I don’t mind even if they do not take money. Alright, money is not so important. But, you see, they do something [UNCLEAR] mesmerism and all that so that your Kundalini does not rise. I have to treat them, I have to look after them and so many suffered them from cancer, epilepsy, angina and all kinds of diseases because of these gurus. So first I have to cure them, immediately we know that they have been to a guru. So these gurus really are doing so many sins. So this is the greatest sin they have committed, just to make some money.
Question: [UNCLEAR] false gurus took their incarnation in this particular period.
Shri Mataji: This is a period of seeking. And they knew that in this period the seekers are promised to get their realization. They knew. And that’s why, it is also predicted, that so many will take their incarnations. Because there is a market for it.
Question: Will you tell us something about Kali Yuga, something about [UNCLEAR].
Shri Mataji: Of course they look so horrid. All the incarnations have been of horrible use. And also human beings have reached a stage where they feel there’s a shock of complete destruction, I mean [UNCLEAR] them. Also we can say we can say that human beings have reached the extremes in everything, in machinery, in technology, in everything they have gone to the extreme. So now they are looking back for the balance. So when it is at the extreme stage only, you start thinking why this, why that, what mistakes we have committed, what should we do and how we can correct it. And once you start reflecting then only Sahaja Yoga can act on such people and then can give them self realization. So Kali Yuga is very important.
Like in our old scriptures of Nala-Puranas, the main Purana, they have written that, this Nala was tortured by this Kali. Kali is the one who is the, according to Indian mythology, is the one who brings this confusion. So Nala got hold of this gentleman and he said that, “I am going to now kill you. Because you have tortured me, and I don’t want you to come back again on this earth, because again you will torture people and bring confusion.” So Kali said all right, I also have some importance. You listen to me. So what is your importance? He said, my importance is this, that when I will rule, then this confusion will rule and then those people who are seeking the truth in the jungles, in the Himalayas, in the valleys and hills will reflect and they will be ordinary households and in this Kali yuga they will get Self Realization. Even there’s a book written by a very old astrologer. I would say he was the pioneer of astrology – Vrigumuni. And there are two books he had written, Guru-Sanghita for normal people and one Nadi-Grantha for the future. In that he had described completely Sahaja Yoga. That their Kundalini will rise, that they will get their realization, that they get cured. Everything. So all these prophecies are made by seers long time back and is described. So this is what is the importance of Kali yuga, that unless and until you go into confusion, you don’t want to find out the way, you take it for granted.
Question: The fact that the people are in a way running away from their traditional churches and religions, that’s how they are becoming the enemies?
Shri Mataji: See because the religions have lost the essence [UNCLEAR] of truth. The essence of every religion was to find the eternal and to treat the transitory with full understanding and its limitations. But the churches themselves have forgotten the first part, to find the eternal, or we can say our temples, all these religions, but they are seeking the transitory. So the whole essence is lost. All the religions came on the tree of spirituality by the great incarnations and prophets, on one tree, saying the same thing in a different manner, at different times, according to the times. In Sanskrit we call it “Samayachar” – according to the times, according to the need. But these people have plucked the flowers and they have taken the flowers saying this is mine this is mine, but the flowers are dead.
Question: Shri Mataji who are you?
Shri Mataji: You see, this question I don’t want to answer. The reason is, Christ said, everyone, but specially Christ’s life, you can see, what He said was the truth, that He was the son of God, we know that. That He was the path and He was the door is also the absolute truth. But what happened to Him? He could hardly work for four years. And they crucified Him. Now I’m doing His job, if I tell anything then they will try crucify me or poison me, because human beings are mad, they don’t want to take the truth which is good for them, for their benevolence. They are children I should say, or childish. So when the will get realization, they will mature, then there will be no inquiry. But before that I don’t want to tell anything. Because they are capricious.
Question: Thank you very much.
Shri Mataji: I think you are great people. But here the problem is that, unless and until the authorities here understand what is the importance of Sahaja Yoga, they are going to be troublesome. This trouble that trouble. And they should try to understand that that is something for the benevolence of the people. This is what it is. I hope something like your endeavor can solve it like this. So they think everybody is a fraud and sect and a this and a that – is not. And like the Catholic church now trying to protect itself, it definitively calling anything as a sect, but they have become the sects. It’s like that. It’s all right. I think it is good for us. Truth has to fight the ignorance. Then are you all going for the program now?
(Yogis having discussions with Shri Mataji)
Shri Mataji: And that is why they are fighting among themselves. All the false people fight among themselves. That’s the only fame they want. they fight because nobody knows the truth.
Yogi: And their brain has become the [UNCLEAR]
Shri Mataji: You cant’s say we can be Americans and the Protestants wholly the some. You see the archbishop of Canterbury was asked, what is Holy Ghost? He said I am agnostic. I don’t know anything. Then the fellow has asked him, “What are you doing there?” He said, “I am doing my job.” You can imagine, how can these people be in jobs. They are not provided by God. This all are man made like a brand, all these things are maddening. God has nothing to do with it. Because he doesn’t know anything. And in the Catholic faith it’s all risky. It’s not only about Christians. You see, you can feel their [UNCLEAR], what about Muslims, what about Hindus. Hindus are the worst in so many things. Only advantage is, that Hindus are not organized. Not politically, not nationally, nor spiritually, I mean in religion, they are not. There is no religion organizer Hindus who will say this is important. They don’t have much respect for the so called priests. You see, they just give them money to do this ceremony or to do that ceremony, they do it in Sanskrit, that’s all. But nobody has respect. And nothing is great to consider about them as the Pope is. Hindus are that much advanced, so far. So far.
It is actually an advantage is that in India that we have a background of saints. Because it was not organized so, there came so many saints. Of course they tortured also, [UNCLEAR] even some princes respected saints. So from the very beginning of Raja Janaka’s time, they respected saints. Shri Rama’s time, Shri Krishna’s time – saints were very much respected. So the tradition of a saint was very respected [UNCLEAR], they have a background. So these people couldn’t work in India, they have come [UNCLEAR] and the false gurus can not work in India. So they came as gurus, all the false gurus, because they know you have no background.
Sahaja Yogi: We are going in the hall now.
Shri Mataji: [UNCLEAR] coming in to hall and we’ll see what is the reaction and then we’ll work it out. And you come to India. To Ganapatipule. It’s a new thing. It’s a heaven there. You should [UNCLEAR] come with them. And he will see whatever he has written is false [UNCLEAR]. It is false [UNCLEAR].
Yogi speaking: This is [UNCLEAR] of Shri Mataji, in the Ganapatipule Ashram, you can hear some music.
Shri Mataji: I don’t think I have seen.
Yogi: You have seen Shri Mataji in Rome Ashram in last year.
Shri Mataji: Then you should invite him to see these. [UNCLEAR] And if comes to London then you can show some real stuff to him. So he is invited and he can come. Also he is invited in the Pratishtan. (laughter and other comments). He should go and see Pratishtan also.
H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi