Public Program at the Department of Religious Studies

University of Sydney, Sydney (Australia)


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Public Program for Members of Department of Religious Studies at the University of Sydney (Australia), 15 March 1990.

Sahaja Yogi : Will you be standing up ?
Shri Mataji: I think so, would be better. Or if you think it’s alright, then it’s alright. They can see me on the tips.
[Long introduction to Shri Mataji by a Sahaja Yogi]
Shri Mataji: Thank you very much.
I bow to all the seekers of truth.
At the very outset, we have to know one thing, that truth is what it is. We cannot organize it, we cannot order it, we cannot conceptualize it also with our human understanding. It is, it was and it will be. The essence of all religions, if you bring it down to the one-line essence, is this, that: seek the eternal, and treat the transitory with all understanding about it.
The first part is the difficult one: seek the eternal. Eternal is the truth, and what is the truth? Now when I’m talking to you, you are all very well versed and very well educated people, I have to request you to have an open mind, a scientific outlook to see for yourself what I say is the truth or not, experience it, and treat all this talk as a hypothesis. And if it turns out to be the truth, then in all honesty we have to accept it.

So there are two things which we may not accept, but they exist. One of them is that all this universe, all this creation is permeated by, nourished by, looked after by all- pervading Power of God’s love. In these modern times even to take God’s name is too much. This is called as Paramachaitanya in Sanskrit language, in Koran it is called as ruh, in the Bible as the all-pervading Power of God’s love, or the all-pervading Power of Divine. What we call as spirituality, divinity is the essence of that. This is first truth. And the second truth is that we are not this body, not this mind, not the emotions, not the ego, not these thoughts. Beyond that we are the Spirit, we are the pure Spirit. These are the two things said in all religions, whatever way they must have talked about.
In the olden times, when seeking started in India – India has certain privileges compared to other countries. Firstly the climate is so good that you can live in a jungle without much trouble. While in the West we would say people started growing outward like a tree, the Indians started going downward into their roots. And they found out, long time back, Sahaja Yoga. It’s not a modern thing, it’s an ancient unscripted method of getting union with the Divine, which is “yoga”. “Sahaja” means “born with you” – “saha” is “with,” “ja” “born.” Born with you is the right to get that union with the divine Power.
But “sahaj” also means “spontaneous”, because this is the living power that works it out. There is a living power within us which has made us human beings from amoeba stage. And now there’s another residual power which has to connect us to the Divine. This is the real meaning of the word “yoga.” And every human being has a right to get united to that all-pervading Power. So this is the last breakthrough of our evolution.

At human level, as you know, we live in a relative world. Some people say this is good, some people say that is good. There’s all a strife going on. But if it is the absolute truth there should be no two opinions about it. So very humbly we must accept that we have not yet reached that absolute truth which proves the existence of God, which proves the existence of this all-pervading Power, which proves the correctness of what the great prophets, the great incarnations have taught us.
Of course religions have gone into diversions and deviations because of human effort, and they might have been apparently looking to be different, but they were just like flowers on the Tree of Life at different times, according to the timings – Sanskrit the word is for this “samayacara”[established practice or samayika? For now]. According to the time the manifestation was there, but they were all created on one Tree of Life. But people plucked it, started saying : “This is mine. This is mine,” and with the dead flowers they started fighting. That’s how we see today the problem arising. There was nothing wrong with these saints, nothing wrong with the prophets, and nothing wrong with the incarnations. They all have done whatever was the best for us, and have tried to tell us from time to time at the time of our evolution what we have to do. But mostly they have been dealing with the transitory things, how not to indulge into the transitory pleasures of life, but to seek the eternal.
The second part of it is the “Seek the eternal.” That is, to get this yoga, to be united with this all-pervading Power which gives you Self-realization, to know the Self. “Know thy Self” – Christ has said it; you are to be born again. Even in Sanskrit language they call a person who is a Realized soul as “dvijaja” means “born twice.” They call a bird also as “dvijaja” meaning “born twice” – means first it’s an egg and then it becomes a free bird to fly out. In the same way a “Realized soul” means a person, a human being who is connected with that all-pervading Power.
Now what is the system within us which has been created by God Almighty beautifully? Because not that He’s our Creator, but He is our loving Father, and beautifully during our evolutionary process He has created a very beautiful mechanism within us – I am sorry we don’t have any diagram here of that – but that is described as “Tree of Life” in the Bible, it’s described as Asas [first Surah] in Koran ,  is described as Kundalini in Sanskrit language. “Kundala” means “coils.”
Now this power of Kundalini is a power which is the power of pure desire. All other desires are impure. You know the law of economics is that in general, wants are not satiable. Today we want to have a table, then want to have a chair, then want to have a car, then want to have a house; whatever we get, we are not satisfied with it. We jump from one to another. The reason is, whatever we desire is not the pure desire. The pure desire within us, whether you are aware of it or not, is to become one with the divine Power. And unless and until this desire is fulfilled, you can never have that satisfaction, that contentment of a saint. So this is the work one had to do.
In the early days thousands of years back, all over the world there were realized souls. You can start right from Abraham, to Moses, to Confucius. In India there were many great saints: Adinath, from that Nath Panthis they were called as, their job was just to give awakening to people. At the time of Rama, His father-in-law was Janaka who was a king, but regarded as a very detached person – videhi – and one disciple came to him, asked him for Self-realization.
He said: “You can ask for my kingdom, but it is not easy to give you Self-realization.”
He said: “Why?”
He said: “The time has not come.”
“So when will the time come?”
He said: “Kali Yuga” – that’s modern times. “This is the time when people will be living under illusions, subranth, and they will be under shock of destruction. They will not be able to solve their problems, and then they will seek the truth. And many of them who today are roaming about in the hills and dales, in the mountains, Himalayas, will settle down as householders and they will get their Self-realization.” That is the time today.
Whatever is said about the Last Judgment, this is the time for that Last Judgment. Also in Koran it is said that “At the time of your resurrection your hands will speak, and they will give witness against you.” Exactly this happens in Sahaja Yoga. The surah that is in Koran called as the “sashti yoga” [connected to Surah Ya Sin, 36],  it’s surprising how Mohammed Sahib clearly said about it. He also said, “You won’t believe it, because you are too arrogant. Because you won’t be able to see that, you’ll be moving in another direction of fanaticism.” Clearly He has said it. But as it is, nobody likes to really go into the details of it and to find what is between the lines. That also is a very subtle thing. For that we have to become subtle beings, and to become that subtle being you have to get your Self-realization.
At the time, in the beginning, I would say, when they were searching, they went through their sympathetic nervous system, praying to God or doing their Vedas and all those things. And what they saw were the different deities sitting on the different chakras on the subtle centers, so they started talking about the deities. So people started worshipping the deities. They wanted to have the nectar, the honey of the flower, but they started talking about the flower, worshipping the flower. So some people afterwards found it, that it was not proper, like Buddha, Mahavira, Mohammed Sahib, Nanaka: all of them found that it’s not proper to talk about the flowers, because people get lost, so better talk about the honey. So one was “sakara”[having form] – that is, with the form – another formless, so “nirakara”[formless]: they started talking about the formless. This was also talk, and talk, and talk. But to reach the honey, you have to be a bee, and that’s what is Self-realization is.
Now this Kundalini is placed in the triangular bone, which is called as “sacrum” in the medical term. In Latin, “sacrum” means “sacred.” That means the Greeks knew about it, otherwise why should they call it a sacred bone? This Kundalini is awakened as a living process, like the seed sprouts when it is put in the Mother Earth; spontaneously rises, passes through six centers, the seventh center is below. And the seventh center is responsible for our excretion. It stops its function when it starts rising. So another myth which says that the sex has any part to play in our ascent is absolutely wrong, because the center of sex which is the seventh center is lower than the Kundalini. Then it rises, pierces through six centers, and the sixth center is placed on the fontanel bone area, where it was a soft bone once upon a time.
But as you grow, through your sympathetic activity you develop two institutions in your head. From the right activity which is, we can call the power of action, you develop your ego like a balloon. And from the left side which is your conditionings, you develop another balloon which is called as “superego” in English language, but in Sanskrit is “mana.” Both of them join like this, sometimes overlap each other, and the bone becomes calcified. So now you are like an egg, I would say. Then when the Kundalini rises, when the Kundalini rises, She passes through this center which is placed between the optic chiasma, known as Agnya Chakra, which sometimes people call it as “third eye.” And this center sucks in these two institutions, opening the limbic area, and through which the Kundalini comes out, and you can feel the cool breeze coming out of your head, the actualization of the baptism. It’s an actualization, it’s not just a certificate.
So, like every instrument has to be connected to the mains, you get connected with that subtle energy. And because this is the seat of your Spirit, but the seat in human beings resides in their heart, immediately the Spirit start emitting light on your central nervous system. This is a very important point one must know. So you cannot understand it through your mental activity, but through your evolutionary process, you manifest a new awareness on your central nervous system. And this awareness is called – in the Christian tradition in the olden times they were called as gnostics. “Gna, gna” was the word. “Gna-jinant” is in Sanskrit, means “knowledge,” from where the “gn” comes – “jnana,” in the same way the “gna,” and “gnostics” they were called. And I’m sure you must have read the Book of Thomas who wrote on his way to India, and where he has talked of many theories of Christianity also. This “gna” or this knowledge, “gna”, is the same as “bodha” in the Buddha tradition, is “to know on your central nervous system.” It’s an experience, it’s not through your brain, not with mental activity, but on your central nervous system. In the Vedas the first verse of Veda is that you have to know it in a “veda”. “Veda” means also “to know on your central nervous system.”
All these scriptures aim at knowing this all-pervading Power on your central nervous system. For example, now we are human beings. We are much better off than animals. Supposing you want to take a dog through a dirty lane he can easily go, or a horse, he has no problems; but we cannot pass through that, because we have developed certain subtler senses within us. But once Kundalini rises and you become a Realized soul, then a new dimension of awareness develops, and a widening of your awareness. First thing that happens on your central nervous system is that, that you become collectively conscious. Is said by Jung – Jung has said it, about it that you develop collective consciousness, you develop it, it’s actualization, is becoming. Is not just that I say that “All right, we are all brothers and sisters. We are part and parcel of the whole.” By saying, that doesn’t happen, but you have to become. It’s a becoming, it’s a happening within us.

So you can feel on your fingertips your own centers and the centers of another person, very easily, even children can feel it. This is the first awareness which we can understand that happens. But when the Kundalini rises, she passes through a portion which we call as Void. It’s not the same as Zen, is different type; is here in the portion which we can call as the “ocean of illusion.” It enlightens ten valencies within us. Human beings have ten valencies, while you know that matter has eight, animals have nine, and human beings have ten valencies. These are ten dharmas, means these are ten religions you can call it, or the Ten Commandments within us. They just get enlightened within us, and you become a righteous person. Like any saint, you become righteous. Nobody has to tell you “don’t do this, don’t do that” – you just become.

This is what has to happen, because you see people belonging to any religion whatsoever, whether it is Christianity, Hinduism, or Islam or any one, they can commit any sin they want, there’s no bondage of religion in them. Anyone can commit any sin. They can kill anybody, they can rob anybody, they can deceive anybody, they can be very mean. Anything is possible, whatever religion one may follow. But when you are not innately religious as I call it, when it is not built in within you, then this kind of faith leads to fanaticism. And I think today’s main problem now is fanaticism and fundamentalism. Everyone thinks that: “We are the best, we are the chosen ones, we have the full idea.” But actually unless and until you know the reality, you cannot say that you have known it. So to know the reality, the Kundalini has first to be connected with the Divine, and then you have to experiment with it and see for yourself, and find out what is the reality, on experience.

The other day one miracle happened, I must tell you that. A gentleman was sitting and was questioning Me on a radio station, and suddenly he asked Me a question: “Do You think this is some sort of a Messiah’s work?” I didn’t answer him, but immediately he felt cool breeze on his hand. He said: “What’s happening?” He forgot he was on the tape, you see. He just said, “What’s it? What is this cool? What’s happening? But nothing on my head!” He just fought all of it [?]. He said, “Nothing on my head!”
I said, “All right, there’s a little imbalance. Let Me work it out.”
And then he started feeling: “Oh God!” and he said, “See, I feel a ball, a ball of cool breeze in New Zealand!” And everybody rushed from the, that area, to see what is happening and everybody‘s listening. Just he asked a simple question like that, and the answer came like a computer you see, it worked, and he was amazed at himself.
So this is something one has to realize, that this is the Power that really does everything. What we do is to something dead- supposing there’s some trees, dead- we make this table, we think no end of ourselves – from dead to dead, just reconstruction. We don’t do any living work. But after Realization you start doing living work. If you give this chaitanya or these vibrations to crops, they grow ten times more. You don’t have to even use the non – what do you call them? – hybrid seeds, non-hybrid seeds. And hybrid seeds are producing less than the non-hybrid seed when you have given them vibrations. And the food that you eat from that is so good, so tasty. It, you can give it to flowers, you can give it to nature, you can give it to any sick person.

When the Kundalini rises, automatically you develop your own balances, and that balanced life manifests outside. Now this ecological problem can be solved as soon as human beings get transformed and develop their balances. Because we are imbalanced, that’s why the nature has gone into imbalance. Nature is not in any imbalance. Poor thing is trying to maintain somehow balance, despite all our hectic efforts. So our balance has to be established so that balance comes into us, and we start leading a life of complete balance automatically – automatically. Nobody has to tell you but you just don’t do it, just become that.
Then another thing you can do, living work, is that you can raise the Kundalini of any person, like one enlightened light can enlighten another person. There has been lots of misconceptions about Kundalini and I’ve read them, and I was amazed because these are most unauthorized. These are all modern stuff that has come from somewhere; I think it’s all a money-making propositions, perhaps, because nowhere in the ancient books is written that Kundalini has any problems or it gives any trouble.
One great saint called Ramadasa, who was the guru of a great king called Shivaji, and he was asked: “How much time does it take for a Kundalini to rise?” So He used the Sanskrit word “tat ksana” – that moment – but there should be a person who is authorized to do it from the Divine, and there should be a seeker of truth, otherwise it won’t work out for years.
So nowhere in the ancient books – we have Markandeya’s, which we can say thousands of years back has written about Kundalini; we have Adi Shankacharya, all of them – nobody has written anything like that. In the twelfth century Gyaneshwara has written about Kundalini. Nobody has said this is dangerous. This is a modern stuff, I think coming from Germany, because Germans came here and somebody told them something, and they have written down. It’s most unauthorized and wrong. Now there are forty nations which are working out Sahaja Yoga, forty nations, and nowhere we have found this kind of a thing that it’s dangerous, this thing happens, that thing happens – nothing of the kind. On the contrary, people get physical fitness, mental fitness.
We have got three doctors from Delhi University who have done their MD with Sahaja Yoga, and have proved that with Sahaja Yoga you can cure very incurable diseases. I must tell you a very great news, that in Perth, husband and wife who had AIDS got cured, during this tour of Mine, just by their own powers. You don’t have to do anything about it – their own powers just worked out. I hope they keep up. We had cured one other gentleman here, Mr. Granby, last time when I came here, but he had no willpower to continue with it. If he had a little bit put attention to it, he would have been all right. And his father is very sorry that he went back to the same bad habits, and he got it back.
So many things can be explained about things which we do not know, about the soul, about possessions, about evil forces – all sorts of things one can see, once you get your Self-realization. Before that, we are in a confused state, and that’s why they say that when the Spirit shines, there are three things which manifest within us. One of them is the truth, that you know the absolute truth. On your fingertips you can ask any question, “Is there God?” – the question. Answer is “yes” – you start feeling the cool breeze. Somebody who says he’s a saint, all right, just feel him. You might get heat, you might even sometimes get a little blister from some horrible person who is just a money-maker or a sorcerer trying to say that he’s a saint. So that’s how you develop the absolute truth on your central nervous system. As I can feel this glass, you can feel a person, his centers. Sitting down here you can – I mean, it’s at an evolved state – you can feel anybody’s centers, just you have to think about it. It’s like a computer. You are all divine computers, fantastic things, which thinks and which produces results, which you have to be. We should not, in any way, have our estimation very low. Actually we are made human beings to be something very great, and we are that. But there’s a little gap which we have to cross.
Like in our Indian village if I take a television and show them, and say that “See, in this television you can see pictures from all over,” they’ll say, “What? This is just a box. How can we see something in it?” And you put to the mains, and then they can see how fantastic it is. In the same way we have to know our potential by being connected to the mains, and then you’ll be amazed that we are great, all of us, specially the seekers of truth have the first right to get their Yoga.
But if you are still indulging with your mental things and you want to have a mental acrobats, still busy with all that, then Divine says, “All right, go ahead, play, try some more of this. We’ll see next time.” But you don’t have to have blind faith for anything. Blind faith leads to fanaticism. You shouldn’t have blind faith at all. You have to experience, and after experiencing if you do not have faith, that means you are not honest.
This is a very simple method which works out, and you are all capable of getting that, and you should not miss the point. I don’t know, because I have spoken on this subject so many times and it’s such a vast knowledge, there must have been at least three to four thousand tapes of Mine in English language alone. So in this small lecture I cannot cover all the points. But I would like to have a discussion, or if you want to ask Me questions will be better to give more time to it. But you have to know that I am not here to sort of ask for any votes, or ask for anything. I’m here to tell you what you have and what you can achieve, so the questions should be relevant and not aggressive; it would be a better idea to know something about it.
So may God bless you all.

Shri Mataji: Stephen, you’ll have to stay here, you see, I’m rather bad at Australian English.
Lecturer: I’ll be here Mother.
Shri Mataji: Yes, please tell Me.
Lecturer: Feel free to ask any questions. And those who are uncomfortable standing, you may want to sit here somewhere – on the floor? Yes.
Is there anybody wanting to ask something? Rachel. This will be Canadian English so.
Rachel: I speak Canadian English, I’ll try to make it clear [unsure]
Shri Mataji is laughing.
Rachel: You pointed to the problem of mental acrobatics, intellectual indulgences and so forth. At what point can someone who has crossed over the gap and who has achieved perhaps a pure desire, at what point can that person articulate intellectually what he or she has achieved? Or can you articulate?
Shri Mataji: Ah. You see, when you’re mentally working it out, then you reach a point where you think you have not achieved whatever is said in it – that’s the point. As we say that first one has to know it mentally also. “Not this, not this, not this,” you go on – “Ya neti neti vachanaih” it is said. So “It is not this, this is not so. This cannot be, this cannot be.” Then you reach a point, then you become a seeker. And a new kind of a category is created, which William Blake has very nicely categorized. And he says they – he called them men of God : “Men of God will become men of God, and they’ll have powers to make others, men of God.” He was really a great, great poet hundred years back, but people thought him to be mad, I tell you; They thought him to be mad, because, it has happened with all the saints, because they are on a different level, you see. Even Kabira has said, “How am I to explain, they are all, the whole world is blind. “Sarvata [?] andha” The whole world is blind. How am I to explain to them?” They feel so frustrated sometimes, how to explain?

So on mental level it, as I have talked to you, I’ve explained to you in a way. But still it has to be your experience, you shouldn’t believe in Me blindly, it’s not proper. You have to experience.
Rachel: Some people have said that the moment you describe and articulate your enlightenment you’re actually not enlightened, and that it actually is contrary to enlightenment to talk about it. How do You feel about those things?
Shri Mataji: You see, these are all money-making propositions. [Laughter]
Most of them don’t know anything about it. So they just say it, because you see if you start an organization, “Oh, I have such an organization, this and that.” Then people say, “All right, then raise our Kundalini.” “No, no, no, no, no! Kundalini you just don’t talk, it’s a very bad thing.”
In Gyaneshwari [Jnaneshvari], which is one of the greatest books, I think, written about Gita by Gyaneshwara [Jnaneshvar] at the age of twenty-three years – imagine what a tremendous genius he must have been – and in the sixth chapter He described everything about Kundalini. But in the Hindu religion, it’s prohibited, specially in Maharashtra, to read even that one. What do you say to that? – nishiddha [forbidden] as they call, no, not to be read, it’s not to be read.
Sahaja Yogi: I think what Rachel is getting at, though applies more to Buddhism, that if for example an Ar-ahat
Shri Mataji: Ar-ahat
Sahaja Yogi: said, “Look, I’ve attained to Nirvana, I’ve been enlightened,” then even within the community of bhikkhus [monks] or the whole sanga they would laugh and say, “Oh, you can’t be, because you’re articulating it, you’re saying, you know, ‘I’m enlightened,’ it doesn’t go with enlightenment.” So there is a difference between that position and the way You’re talking about Realization.
Shri Mataji: Not at all. You see, early Buddhists – My son-in-law has written a nice book about [lake] Manasarovar and this thing, and he went round and he has studied Buddhism, and he has gone to the caves where the earlier Buddhists lived. And they just talked of spontaneous awakening and the experiences, like Saint Thomas has talked.
But this is a much later thing when the sutras started with Mahayana, this, that. They formulated it, organized it, and they said all that. But actually, if you see to it, Buddha Himself is one of the part of the Kundalini. You have to use His name; He is the one who controls our ego, in evolution.
Now when they say, “Buddham sharanam gacchami,” means “I surrender myself to the enlightened”. One, “Buddham sharanam gacchami.” Then, they said, “Dharmam sharanam gacchami.” “Dharmam” is that valency business I’m talking about, that “I surrender myself to my valencies, my dharma” – dharma. And the third one He said is, “Sangam sharanam gacchami.” That means, “I surrender myself to collectivity” – is Sahaja Yoga only, but you should be able to see between the lines.
Same about Gita. If you read Gita superficially, you will think that He has said about Karma yoga and He has said about Jnana Yoga. Now what Jnana Yoga is, what I’m talking about, that you have to know it on your central nervous system. But Krishna didn’t talk much about it. So then Arjuna asked, “What about the karma?”
So Krishna was a incarnation of diplomacy, I must say, divine diplomacy, because He knew about the human brain, and He knew how to put it forward. So He said, “All right, you do all your karmas, and put it at the Lotus Feet of the Lord,” which cannot be, it’s not possible. We may mentally think, “Oh, I’m doing all for God’s sake I’m doing this.” That’s just our imagination. But you just don’t do it, because the karma has to become akarma, means “non-action” – that’s only possible when you get your Self-realization. When a Self-realized soul gives you Kundalini, he doesn’t say – raises your Kundalini, doesn’t say, “I do it.” He says, “It’s rising, it’s going, it’s working out.” In the third person he talks, so the whole thing becomes akarma.
Then He says that “pushpam phalam toyam” [pushpam: flower; phalam: fruit; toyam: water] “Whatever are the flowers and things like that you give Me” – that’s the Bhakti yoga – “I’ll take it.” But He uses only one word on which He has made everybody dance, and that word is “ananya” – ananya bhakti: “When there is not the other, when you are united with Me.”
But people say, “We are doing ananya bhakti,” and then you find such horrible things. These people who are devoted and doing all these things, taking ganja [canabis], taking this, how can they do it? People can’t understand, so it is not “ananya”. “Ananya” is only possible when you get your Self-realization, otherwise not possible.
Sahaja Yogini : inaudible
Shri Mataji: I can’t understand, can you explain to me?
Sahaja Yogi: She’s asking – this is Jacqueline – that You are saying then, that mystics who have written about their own mystical experiences are truly mystics. But just because they’ve talked about them and written about them, you know, doesn’t mean that.
Shri Mataji: But there are many mystics who are real and there are many mystics who are not. Anybody can call themselves as mystics. I’ve seen there are Sufis who are real Sufis, and there are many who are not. There are many who are saints, real saints, and there are not. How will you make them out? With vibrations you can make out, that’s the only way. So their experiences, whatever it is, are not to be taken for granted.

Jacqueline: I was saying that a mystic who returns to the market place, so to speak, and relates their experience – John of the Cross, he didn’t want to relate it but he was compelled by requests of people around him in his community, to relate his experience, and that’s something shared then with the collective. So that if someone who has the experience, like a shaman, and then can bring it back for healing to others, to the collective.
Shri Mataji: You cannot share it like that. At human level you cannot share it. You have to be at the higher level, you cannot share it. It’s like something you have to see in histology, you have to use a microscope. In the same way, you have to be a subtler being to share the experience of a mystic, you cannot share it – like see, Khalil Gibran, Khalil Gibran. What will you say ? Was he a Realized soul or not? Some will say yes, some will say no. I would say yes, of course he was.
Jacqueline: I consider it a sharing if someone can say it to someone else.
Shri Mataji: You cannot share unless and until, unless and until you become a Realized soul, because there are so many barriers between two persons, you cannot share with anyone. It is within yourself.
Jacqueline: I’m not perhaps choosing the right words, but I just mean in the sense of the people for whom John of the Cross wrote, for example, were needing reassurance and perhaps guidance in their realization, you know.
Sahaja Yogi: She’s using the example of a famous Spanish mystic, John of the Cross. It’s a very interesting person with deep spiritual experiences, who then conveyed something of his experiences to ordinary people. I mean, You are conveying Your experiences to ordinary people.
Shri Mataji: No, I say your experiences. I am just telling. I didn’t tell you anything about My experiences. I am saying that you have to experience yourself! Not saying that; and now I would say, now you are taking Spanish people – Isla, have you read Isla [José Francisco de Isla]? That’s the one who is a Realized soul! He is a Realized soul, I mean, you can see it is a Realized soul. I mean, you take his book and you have vibrations in your hands.
Sahaja Yogi: Do Realized souls ever feel moved to take a leading part in public life? And if so, does it make society a better place when they do it, even though the people under them are only seeking or not realized at all?
Shri Mataji: Of course! I mean, this will not only make a beautiful society of very beautiful people – Now last year we had eighty-two marriages, international marriages, and all these marriages are successful. It’s very well-balanced, beautiful – one or two mishaps sometimes, one or two mishaps – and the children they have are all Realized souls. Because there are Realized souls who want to take birth but they want to seek proper parents, you see, they don’t want to be born to crazy ones, you know. Naturally, I mean, they have to think about it. And so many are now today Realized souls otherwise also born, but parents don’t know about them.
Sahaja Yogi: Are there any engaged in the public life in the world today who are Realized people that You can?
Shri Mataji: Of course! Gorbachov is. Abraham Lincoln was, Sadate was – so many. The Mahatma Gandhi was there, he was a Realized soul.
Sahaja Yogini: Now I can express my dissatisfaction with all these accounts, mystical accounts which I’ve read. I’ve read quite a few, and they seem not to speak to me. I feel, yes, they’ve achieved something, but the way they express it doesn’t reach me. It’s like they don’t speak the right language for me. Now surprisingly, when I read the philosophy of people who I think are not enlightened or they make mistakes, but somehow, I’m already led somewhere much better than these accounts. So I think it’s important that these Realized souls have good abilities to have some special language to reach the masses. I think someone who is a computer programmer who gets enlightened would have great ability to move other computer programmers, because… [Laughter]
Shri Mataji: This is what Sahaja Yoga is doing, it’s bridging you; this is what Sahaja Yoga does. Then you understand all of them, you’ll understand all of them. You’ll be surprised, when I started Sahaja Yoga in London, when My husband got posted there, I had to really struggle with seven hippies for four years, I tell you – terrible! They were all very well-educated people from Cambridge, this, that, all very well-educated, had become hippies. Out of their seeking, they had become hippies. They thought by becoming hippies they’ll seek God, whatever it is.
But when they got their Realization, just they said, “Now we understand all of them.” They went to the libraries, found out this is that, that is that. I mean, the scholarship of England I saw then, when they got their Realization. Before that – Bacon is there, all right, writing this way, that way; then they found out all the people who were Realized souls, and the best of all was Shakespeare.

Seeker lady: It’s a little hard for me to hear everything You say.
Shri Mataji: I’m sorry.
Seeker lady: But am I correct in hearing You speak of children as Realized souls?
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Seeker lady: In that case, is Self-realization a gift or is it the work of a person over a period of time of maturing?
Shri Mataji: It is a – you see, those I’m saying are Realized souls have received their Realizations in previous lives. And now, it’s not a gift, it’s just an evolutionary process.
Seeker lady: Ok
Shri Mataji: It just works out. It’s a living process of a living energy.
Sahaja Yogi: I’m just wondering if You think there’s a difference between the Eastern and Western psyche; and if You do, what do You think the differences are?
Shri Mataji: Yes. Now the Western movement has been outward, like a tree, the whole civilization grew up. But it must seek its roots. To My eye there’s not two things, East and West – the roots are the same as the tree; and if the tree does not find out its roots, it will be destroyed. Both are essential, complementary to each other. But because, as I told you, the climate in India has been quite kind, they went more into the search of themselves – “why are we here?” – instead of fighting the nature. But if you see the – I mean in London if you have to go out, you take at least fifteen minutes just to put on all your weapons to fight the climate there. [Shri Mataji laughs].
In our country you can just walk out, no problem. So we didn’t have to fight the nature, so that question was over; and it was a very beautiful country, full of fruits and things, so they could live in the jungles very well. Even now if you go, at the foothill of Himalayas you’ll find all kinds of flowers, beautiful things are there. Of course now it’s destroyed, because of civilization. So the people indulged more in finding out what is within us, and that’s how they knew it. So the search which is outside through science has to be substantiated and nourished by spirituality – it’s very important. So these are part and parcel of the same.

God has made only one world, one world. He didn’t make many nations, we have done it. And sometimes I feel we move like criminals with our number-plate, you see, the passport number, this number, that number. God didn’t make that way, it’s our idea; because we laugh the same way, we smile the same way, we love the same way, everything is the same. But He had to create variety of faces, otherwise we would have been bored stiff!

You’ll be surprised, we have those forty nations I said, specially Russians. I must say a word for Russians specially, you see. Whatever may have been the mistakes of their dominating administrations and things, whatever they had, there’s one thing good: as they didn’t deal with politics and other things, you see, they put their minds to search within. They’re very well-read people, very well-educated, very deep scientists also, but all of them have one mind in the science and another mind towards the spirit. And I was amazed when I went there to Leningrad, and they had never heard about Me, because there are no books available on Sahaja Yoga, or I’ve never written any books so far. There were two thousand people sitting outside and two thousand inside, in the hall. And after the lecture, I gave Realization there – of course, this Realization works out en masse – and when they came out, they all asked Me: “Mother, what about us? [inaudible] and the hall is small.” If you can come tomorrow in this ground, I’ll be here.” Next morning I went there, the two thousand outside ones and inside ones all were there to meet Me. And now it has become sort of an, you can say, a kind of a big wave of Sahaja Yoga. They sent their people for filming in India, and they’ve accepted us as an independent organization for medical treatment, for education. They are going to give us a big house, everything, I mean whatever we want – the government ! So sort of, they were just waiting for it, just waiting for it.

Sahaja Yogi: Is there anybody else liking to ask a question? I didn’t explain earlier that Mother is a medical doctor, so there may be questions, say, connecting, you know, healing
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Sahaja Yogi: with what She’s talking about. And since She’s talked about politics, I forgot to mention that She is the wife of, I think, the senior-most public servant in the United Nations.
Shri Mataji: He’s the Secretary-General, he’s the senior-most Secretary-General of the UN.
Sahaja Yogi: Of the United Nations. So if you like to ask about politics even, She’s very well-informed. [Shri Mataji laughs].
Shri Mataji: It’s rather difficult now.
Sahaja Yogi: And on top of that I forgot to welcome those who’ve come from that, come from within the Sahaja Yoga community; that I welcome you all, those who’ve come from that community, who may have particular questions that they’d like to ask You in this context, and by all means feel free about that. Before we get back to those who want to ask You second questions – anybody here? John !
John: We’ve all had experiences. Generally I find – and I’ve explored experience to some extent – my experiences seem to be limited by my senses, my physical presence here. And if there is this all-pervading Power, that is something which is transcendent to my senses, it seems to me paradoxical. How can I experience this, when all my experience is bound by my senses? I mean, is there a real experience of that? You see, I still don’t know that.
Shri Mataji: Experience of what?
John: Well, You said that a person can have experience of this power, this transcendental power, when this is something else ….
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course, of course, it is there. And not only that, but you go beyond your mind, because you reach a state which is called as thoughtless awareness, thoughtless awareness. You are aware, but there’s no thought. For example, a thought rises within us and then it falls, and another thought rises and falls. We live either in the past or in the future; on the cusp of these thoughts we are dancing all the time. So when the Kundalini rises these thoughts become lean, and there’s a space in between which is the present, which in Sanskrit is called as “vilamba.”
So when the Kundalini rises you become thoughtless. If you want to think you can think it, but if you don’t want to think you are in thoughtless awareness. That’s the samadhi state, that’s the state of what you call is the meditative state, where first is called as “thoughtless awareness.” In Sanskrit it’s called as “nirvichara samadhi.” Then the second state that is achieved, is called as “doubtless awareness,” called as “nirvikalpa” – means, you are so evolved that you have no doubts about it, you just work it out.
John: In a sense that it’s beyond, given that it’s an experience, it’s also beyond experience. It’s like an experience beyond experience, because that is an experience of something on which all other experiences are based.
Shri Mataji: Yes, it is beyond that, of course.
John: So in a sense it’s like the end of experience.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no! The experience is of the feeling this all-pervading Power, is precise – all right? And then the experience of feeling your centers on your fingertips, to be precise. Then the experience is that you can become thoughtlessly aware. Then the experience is that if you want to work on other people, you find that you can find out about their own centers, and you can raise their Kundalini and you can give them Realization. So you start experiencing yourself, like you enter into a big palace – that’s yourself. So first you enter into the hall, then you see other things and then other things, and you’re amazed at yourself. It’s like that. It’s a new dimensions into which you enter.

Sahaja Yogi: Yes, Steve!
Steve: This is actually more a political question, but one of the things that fascinates me about world politics at the moment actually seems to be the Hindu fundamentalism. Possibly You can give us.
Shri Mataji: What’s it?
Sahaja Yogi: Would You like to comment on Hindu fundamentalism?]
Shri Mataji: They are just like anybody else, what’s there to comment? But it was very late they started. The reason was also because of the Sikh aggression. The Sikhs started killing people in Punjab, saying that “you are Hindus.” So they formed themselves into a group, “All right, we are Hindus, so what?” – to protect themselves, more sort of protective way they started it. But whatever it is, I don’t agree with that much, that why don’t they get their Realization? – nobody can touch you. But they’ll come round, I think, all of them, one day.

Seeker: When the Realized people write up the accounts of their experience, can you discern in those – and You might like to comment – whether there are any common elements in what I might call in the Western thinking, “triggers” for the surrendered life. In other words, experiences that they might have had which led them into the experience of enlightenment. I’m interested in this question from the point of view of the alcoholic, actually, how it is that an alcoholic does undergo a cognitive change, a very pronounced cognitive change when he’s being rehabilitated, particularly in a program like the AA. In the enlightened regime, are there triggers or indications that enlightenment might be just around the corner, or something which led you into it? Does that make sense?
Shri Mataji: Triggering what ?
Sahaja Yogi : Triggers, now triggers is what you pull when you shoot guns
Shri Mataji: I know “triggers”, I know triggers. [laughter.] I know that word.
Sahaja Yogi: But one other way of referring to these triggers is what we call predisposing factors
Seeker: Right.
Sahaja Yogi: for enlightenment. Are people, because of the evolutionary process, in a position where there are more predisposing factors for them to become enlightened, or are there certain things which could happen in their lives? Like You use the example of the Kali Yuga, it’s so oppressive,
Shri Mataji: Yes. Absolutely.
Sahaja Yogi: so suddenly you realize something desperately has to be done.
Shri Mataji: But I must tell you that the Divine is so anxious to give you Realization, it doesn’t bother about anything.
And we can compare our evolutionary process to a spacecraft. In a spacecraft like Sputnik or anything, there’s a container, first container, and it has containers in it. So the first container, containing all other the containers, flies. But when it goes up to a point it has a certain velocity, and then as you say, triggers – means there’s an explosion, and the second container is thrown with a much greater velocity. Like that it happens. Now we are as the last container, we should think, and the triggering is so fast, I am Myself amazed at the working out of this. It is not bothered as to what you have done, anything you have sinned, so-called – your guilt is all nonsense now, everything is absolutely a nonsense. It just works out. You don’t have to do any cleansing, nothing of the kind, it just works out. It’s like a torrential, we can say, a rain of the Grace. It is happening.
Seeker: But there are no common indications? It’s just a ….
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, nothing; nothing of the kind, nothing.
Sahaja Yogini: As a practising Sahaja yogi, I’ve experienced the benefits of thoughtless awareness and the benefits of Sahaja Yoga. What or how different would my life be or my experiences be, when I’ve attained doubtless awareness? Is that the aim also of the Sahaja Yogi, to strive towards doubtless awareness? And then how different or what changes would I experience in doubtless awareness, when I am a practising Sahaja Yogini?
Shri Mataji: In doubtless awareness when you rise from thoughtless awareness, what happens that you start growing, because only in present you grow. You start growing, and then you feel like doing it for others also. You want to help others, you want to talk about it, work it out. This is sort of a collective, we can say, the collective generosity starts, and you start working it out for others, you talk to other people and you start raising their Kundalini, helping them and all that. As a result of that, you can become very powerful. You can even control the elements, so many things you can control, and it’s limitless, because it is something really that is, we can say, is beyond our conception how far we can get. It’s tremendous.
Sahaja Yogini: Just to follow that, how would I personally work towards realizing this state more and more and more strongly, this state of doubtless awareness? How do I surrender myself more and more? What things would I do?
Shri Mataji: For that, Buddha has told you that: “Sangam sharanam gacchami” – you have to come in the collective. It works in the collective, because it’s the work of the collective. Once you are in the collective, all the collective is growing and with that you grow. So you have to be in the collective. If you sit at home, do meditation, you won’t grow. You have to be in the collective, that’s all. And in the collective you just ascend very easily, no problem. Some people have touched so fast, and some people are still little bit not there, but because those who are higher, they just pull them up. It’s a collective happening.
Sahaja Yogi: So being out among the people?
Shri Mataji: Yes, all those who are Realized souls. You must mix with them, talk to them, be with them. You should sing songs, and they enjoy together, it’s very enjoyable. The way they enjoy each other is very wonderful. I’ll quote a beautiful poem written by one very famous poet, Namadeva, who was just a tailor, and was very much appreciated by Nanaka, and he said that : “Now you’d better write in Punjabi language.” So he wrote such a big book of things in Punjabi language, and is used in the Guru Granth Sahib. He was a poet from Maharashtra.
So one day he went to see another Realized soul, who was a potter. His name was Gora Kumbhar, and this potter was busy kneading his clay to make pots. Namadeva saw him there, looked at him, he was so stunned. He says: “I came here to see the nirakara, to see the formless, and here it is in form.” What an appreciation, what a adoration, and what an understanding of each other!
But they were so few. They were all tortured and troubled, I must say, terrible things, because people didn’t understand them. And whatever they say is the truth. Every word that they said is the truth.

Sahaja Yogi: So to Rachel and Michelle.
Sahaja Yogini: I gather that You have many communities and followers around the world.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Sahaja Yogini: I wonder if You could tell us a bit about them, how many do You have? When did it start, when did You [laughter] at the head of the movement?
Shri Mataji: I’m very bad at accounts, that’s one thing I can’t do. [Big laughter], I’m hopeless I tell you, really I don’t understand accounts, I don’t understand banking, I cannot sign a check, I’m so hopelessly bad; and I just don’t know how I don’t know these things, how to keep an account.
Sahaja Yogini: Perhaps recount how You became aware that You had something very special to teach to others, and
Shri Mataji: I was born like this, [laughter]. Just born.
Sahaja Yogini: And your owns are following?
Shri Mataji: I mean, My father was a Realized soul, so he understood it. And I met some saints also. But nobody was so anxious to work it out, because they were frightened of society. Most of them had disappeared to Himalayas or some places, and they wouldn’t come down. They said, “It’s a big venture. You try Your luck!” [Shri Mataji laughts].

Sahaja Yogini: If you see this university is full of people who are very much committed to bookish knowledge. I mean, we learn so much, we read so much, and I think maybe some people do it for degree or for position. But I think quite a lot are really devoted to just read more and more and understand it more, in an intellectual way. Now what role do You assign to this kind of pursuit, intellectual pursuit? Because if you ask people if they want to be Realized, maybe they say: “Ah, not really,” but they pursue the books. So what do You see, what’s the role of pursuing text and books?
Shri Mataji: You see, if you read books only, then you get lost in the words, not in reality. And we had so many like that, you see, great scholars, very first class first, and PhDs and MAds, all kinds of people came down to Sahaja Yoga, [laughter]. Very learned.
But there was one thing common about them: they had a kind of an intelligence to see that there’s something beyond – that’s all. And it clicked with them, so many of them.
So it’s not difficult. You have not wasted your energy at all ! But it’s like whatever you have read has to be re-read with a torch in your hand.

There is one gentleman called as Yogi Mahajan. He’s a lawyer, his father was a Chief Justice of India, of the Supreme Court, very learned person, and he had written lots of books also. He came to Sahaja Yoga. So then he wrote another book called as Gita Enlightened.
Now there’s another Muslim gentleman in Paris, Djamel his name is. He’s an aeronautical engineer. He’s writing Koran Enlightened. There’s somebody else who’s writing Bible Enlightened. Their education is not wasted. Education is a technique, but the creativity comes from your Spirit. It would be like the glass is the education, but you have to have water in it, then it’s complete.

Sahaja Yogi: John.
John: I’ve just had a question going through my mind when You were answering Rachel’s last question, which is this: since Your centers for – well, what would you call Your centers anyway? What would you call your centers?
Shri Mataji: Myself?
John: No, Your centers.
Sahaja Yogi: Your centers, shakti, power.
Shri Mataji: What centers are?
Sahaja Yogi: How would you describe, you know, the different centers?
Shri Mataji: It’s a shakti, it’s a power, it’s an energy.
John: No, I’m referring to the places where you go.
Sahaja Yogi: Oh, I see, you’re talking about the geographical centers.
John: Yes
Sahaja Yogi: How would You refer to Your worshipping groups, the worshipping community like in Sydney, is there a name that would be …?
Shri Mataji: Yes, they’re all My children, I call them.
John: Well, what we ask You a question like this: are among Your children, say, Christian priests? You’re very ecumenical obviously. I mean, do they come there looking for Realization? Or is it like, what they have learned or bring with them what they have learned, and try to lift it to another plane in Your community?
Sahaja Yogi: Are there any Christian priests among Your children, which as far as I know there are?
Shri Mataji: Of course there are, there are – three of them. And one was a very high priest in Italy.
John: Italy?
Shri Mataji: Yes. In Italy there’s a deviation now, a little bit, coming up.

Recently I read a book about when Christ was in India, quite a nice book written by a German priest, and I think he’s a Realized soul because he knows so many things and he says so many things, which only a Realized soul can say. Of course he is a scholar, so he has authentically shown that Christ was there. But the way he has discussed Paul in Christianity and all that is remarkable, remarkable, but with great power. Even Khalil Gibran has discussed Paul.
They can see through things. He’s not My disciple, but definitely he’s a Realized soul. He’s a priest.
We have one priest in London who tried to bring Bishop of Canterbury. [laughter]
And I must say that he sent his adviser to one of My lectures. I never knew he was sitting but that day, I don’t know why, I started talking about something that was not Christianity in the Christians’ behavior, and he got very angry and he went away. I said that Christ has said: “Thou shall not have adulterous eyes.” What a subtle thing to say, because in Sahaja Yoga Christ is placed on the optic chiasma, on the cross. He’s the one who sucks in our karmas, that’s why He talked of the eyes – “Thou shall not have adulterous eyes” – very subtle. Not only the mind, but even the eyes.
And what about the Christian nations, what we see today? I mean it’s horrid, I must say. Some things are very immoral, very immoral.
Like in France now they are saying it should be allowed for housewives to be prostitutes, party. Even the word “sexy” for women, I don’t like it at all. They are not prostitutes, why should they be sexy? It’s a question of self-esteem. I mean if you call any Indian woman sexy she will just slap you, being angry, she’ll be so angry for such a thing. She is not a prostitute. So the whole society which is, which is coming from Christ, is going towards where? They are worshipping Freud, not Christ. Freud is their guru, not Christ.

But when you come to Sahaja Yoga you’ll be surprised, your eyes get steady, your attention gets steady; you really become a Christian in the real sense of the word. Because you get the actualization of baptism, it’s not artificial. As William Blake has said that: “Some priest cursed me on my head, and I suffered.” It’s not that, it’s the actualization which takes place, all right? Thank you.

Sahaja Yogi: So, it is time, it is the time to-
Shri Mataji: Thank you very much.
Sahaja Yogi: Thank you.
Shri Mataji: I hope you will come to our program which we are having – I don’t know where, again the same problem! [laughter] They just fix Me like plug, you know, and I don’t know where I have to go and what I have to do. They push Me in the car, they push Me in the aeroplanes! [laughter]
Sahaja Yogi: Do you want to take Realization?
Another Sahaja Yogi: Well, the program is tomorrow night at the Hilton Hotel ballroom, at 7.30.
Shri Mataji: Rather too posh for Me. [laughter]
Hilton Hotel! [Shri Mataji laughts]All right, must be some reason.
Sahaja Yogi: And Saturday night there are two programs, one following up at the same venue at the same time on Saturday night.
Shri Mataji: Please make it convenient to come, because I’ll come only after one year here, and I hope all of you should get your Realization, it’s very important. And then you’ll understand between the lines, the enlightened scriptures.

Sahaja Yogi: Actually, I’d like to say a few words to those who are studying. I was doing my Masters in Philosophy in Bombay University, and I used to read like all of you, I suppose, and after reading I came to a point where you see that you’re still far away from the reality, from the truth. I mean, you take one theory and you feel that this is the best. You read another thing, you feel this is the best. But the two might be absolutely contradictory. So what is the truth? And by just reading the books I personally thought that this is not what I really want from the academics. And that is where I came to Sahaj, and I have experienced a lot through blessings of Shri Mataji. And I welcome, I mean I wish that all the seekers should ask for their Realization, if they really are seeking for the knowledge. Thank you.
Shri Mataji: Now the theories that look contradictory actually integrate after Sahaja Yoga, absolutely integrate. I’ll give an example. Now supposing if I have all the powers, I’m the greatest capitalist. But I can’t live without distributing it, so I’m the greatest communist. If you don’t have the capital, how can you distribute it? But the capital of spirituality is important, not these worldly things – these are transitory.
All these theories that look contradictory actually are integrated. All religions which look contradictory, they all integrate. Actually we get integrated within ourselves, complete integration takes place.
So you don’t have to deny any religion, you don’t have to argue it out, but you have to see for yourself the truth, that they are all one – no difference at all. That was the time it had to be done, this was the time it was to be done. Now this is the time of Kundalini awakening, so I talk of Kundalini awakening. This is not the time when I have to take the Jews out of somewhere, that Moses had to do. So this is another work. Whatever is the time, the maturity of the Tree of Life, one has to do that way, and that’s how it works out.
So thank you very much, very kind of you to have invited Me, I’m really enamored that people of such intelligence should pay some attention to Sahaja Yoga, which is very humble.
Sahaja Yogi: Thank You so much for coming.
Shri Mataji: Thank you very much, all.

H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi