Swadishthana chakra and what happens when you think too much?

Miami (United States)

1990-06-04 Public Program, Agnya, Christ, Paul, Swadisthana, Joy, 43'
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1990-06-04 Public Program 2 in Miami

[Introduction by Gregoire – Shri Mataji is an incarnation]


So, Shri Mataji, I don’t quite know what I did today, or this evening. And I don’t quite know whether they know what I did, but basically, I asked them to put their hands toward your picture and to ask, and we all asked aloud three times: Shri Mataji is this the wind of the Holy Spirit?  

And then, most of them, I just asked those who feel the vibration, or those who feel the wind, please raise your hands. Some people are here for the first time. But most of the people who are here raised their hand and felt the vibration.  Then I talked a little bit because I didn’t want them to become too scared or serious. Then I asked another question, or I asked them to ask another question. I asked them Shri Mataji are you manifesting the Holy Spirit?  

And then we asked this question three times.  And, again, most of them felt the vibration. And a gentleman told me that he felt a cold wind. And then I did something that probably I shouldn’t have done, but, I told them that, the following thing, I told them that it’s very difficult to recognize a living incarnation, or someone who is divine in the present. It’s easy to do it once they are gone and dead. 

So, incarnations were never recognized.  But, now we have a new instrument of perception.  We have a new way of knowing.  And this is the wind of the Holy Ghost. And on the basis of this, I submit to you that Shri Mataji is the incarnation of the Holy Spirit.  But you don’t need to believe it. 

Because, this is not a religion of belief, it’s a religion of experience.  Now I saw a lot of puzzled faces.  But I felt that it was due to them as honest seekers.  What I believe and what I have experienced to be true on the basis of fifteen years of exposure to the awesome miracles that you have been manifesting in the five continents.  

So, Shri Mataji, I please ask you to forgive me for this because one never feels quite entitled to say the things of the kind.  One never feels a worthy carrier for this kind of statement.  On the other hand, perhaps the time has come for people to face what is happening.  And I hope that I have not totally embarrassed you.  

And if I have done anything wrong, I please ask you to forgive me. 

Thank you Shri Mataji.

[Transcription of audio”Shri Mataji – I am what I am!, Agnya, Christ, Paul, Swadishthana, Joy”]

I bow to all the seekers of truth.  Whatever God has done, He must have thought that it should not be delayed anymore.  But, I would request you not to believe anything like that blindfolded.  You must experience it.  You must find out for yourself.  Because truth, if it is not accepted at a particular level, it might challenge your ego.  It might not be so much easy to perceive also.  Yesterday the question was asked and that might be the reason he had to say it out.  And many a times people ask such questions. Now in the modern times, it is predicted already, in various Indian scriptures, and abroad, especially by a great man called Bhrigumuni, who lived, I think, about fourteen thousand years back, who is the originator of all the signs of astrology.  He has written a book called Nadi Granth.  And in that it is described, everything.  About the modern times as well as about me, my birthdate, and everything.  But, you will be surprised, I never told them this.  Never. 

I think the first news came from a big saint in India, who said about it.  Who had never met me before.  And also, then a lady who got very badly possessed.  Started talking like a learned Brahmin, in Sanskrit language, she was an ordinary woman, and she started telling about me.  Of course, I was quite embarrassed, I didn’t know what to do.  But it is not important what I am, because whatever I am, that I am.  There is nothing great about it.  But it is great that you people become something higher.  That you achieve something.  Me having something is just innate within me.  As we have our eyes and our nose, we are not proud of it.  In the same way, what you achieve in this life is the most important thing.  Because so far, realization has been an individual happening.  An individual gets realization.  And nobody believed, that is why the saints had to suffer everywhere.  In India they had to suffer, everywhere.  Even a person like William Blake*, who was a great soul, no doubt, in America, in England, he too had to suffer.  People called him a madman, you see?  They never thought he was normal.  As you know Kahlil Gibran, another person, every one of them, even in China, everywhere the saints had to suffer because they were alone.

Nobody to support them as such or to say that, yes, this is the truth.  Also they lived for a very short time, like Christ was given only four years to talk about himself.  And four years is no time, actually, you will be surprised that I was in London.  I was working out seven hippies for four years.  They are all very well educated, Oxford and Cambridge University, professors and all that.  But nothing could work out.  For seven years I was not sure that they have settled down.  But at least it took four years for me to give them realization.  So, you can imagine how difficult it is to start the foundation of…, and, but, there is one thing about the English, I must say, they are serious people.  And if they find the truth, I mean, all these seven people are today the foundation stones of Sahaja Yoga, I should say, in the West.  They went all out to find out about kundalini, it’s’ working, everything.  But the other way around is Russia.  I don’t know what books they have read, or how, they just recognize me, all of them, one and all.  Everybody knows me in Russia.  You will see, you will be amazed at the miracle that I went there and they give you a visa, separate paper, but my visa was handled by so many people that when I went there, I found that the paper was missing.  There was no visa for me.  

So, at the entrance, because I have a diplomatic passport, he looked at me and he just smiled.  I said I have no visa I am sorry.  He just smiled at me and I don’t know what he did with the computer and he made a visa for me there.  That is not possible in any country even in India.  It is not possible.  But it happened.  And it was, he did it on my passport so that I should not lose it.  Such things happen, then you start wondering why some people are so sensitive.  Like in Italy also in Italy, I would say.  Italy it has been very different.  But, you see when you should not claim anything there is no need to claim.  Of course, when God feels like telling you because he must have felt that he must tell now the Americans they are drifting out.  There is nothing to be claimed, you see yourself will find out.  Your self would have found out but he thinks that it should not be in his case it was quite delayed so he doesn’t want you to be delayed like that.  And he wanted to sort of must have been so it is alright whatever it is now the cat is out of the bag as they say now.  So now we have to know about ourselves.  That is the best way.  What is the use of knowing about me.  First better know about ourselves, what we are inside ourselves.  Did you talk to them about this or not? 

Gregoire: Yes, Shri Mataji, I did 

Shri Mataji:  What did you say?  

Gregoire: I exposed, very briefly that the seven chakras respond to seven qualities within us and when the kundalini enlightens those chakras those qualities start manifesting.  But, I didn’t elaborate very much on it.  

Shri Mataji: Alright.  Now as you see there are also three channels.  As you know that, doctors talk about autonomous nervous system.  But if you ask them, what is auto, they cannot tell you what is auto.  It is a name given, if you say automobile it means there is a driver sitting there, isn’t it?  It does not move by itself.  Now this autonomous nervous system is represented here.  Here now by three channels.  First the left side sympathetic and the right side sympathetic and the central one is the parasympathetic.  As I told you yesterday whenever we put in any effort we can move only to the left or to the right.  That is on the sympathetic.  But we have no control over parasympathetic until you get your realization.  That means if you want to run fast, you can increase the beat of your heart, but, automatically it comes down to normal.  And that happening is done through parasympathetic.  So far doctors believe in to it, that that is so, they know that.  But these centres which are within us are on the inside the spinal cord and cannot be seen with your naked eyes but they manifest outside as plexuses on the physical side.  So the plexuses work out our physical side but we also have a mental side.  So the left side is the side which we can say is for our emotions, is for our past, is for our conditionings.  

The right side is for our action, is for our future.  And the central path is for our ascent.  All these centres that he has talked to you about have been developed within us during our evolutionary process, step by step.  So, Christ came on this centre, it is the Agnya chakra, as we say he is the gate, we have to pass through him.  The Christians may shout do anything but they don’t know anything about Christ.  Now this centre is between the optic chiasma where the kundalini has to pass through.  That is why I was saying you must forgive because it is his command.  As you know, in his Lord’s Prayer, he has asked to forgive everyone.  So it passes through that optic chiasma and if you see…can somebody come and show?  Both the sides we have ego and superego.  Now the ego is when we do some action and we think we have done this.  The fumes of that feeling go and form our ego like this.  And they cross over.  And when we are conditioned, then the fumes of conditionings also pass over and go to the right side so they cross over.  This crossing point is very important.  On this crossing point is placed the deity of Christ.  So his message is of resurrection.  


That when you pass through this centre and when Christ is awakened these two institutions are sucked in.  That is why we say he died for our sins.  He died for our sins.  He suffered for our sins.  Because once he is awakened these two institutions are sucked in.  And this area, fontanelle bone area, opens out, they cover first of all the limbic area, which opens out like this, and then the kundalini penetrates them.  When he has suffered for us once and for all why should the Christians suffer?  But this is the theory they use, you must suffer.  Actually, Christians don’t suffer if I have seen that.  What they make others suffer only.  The way the Christianity spread in these countries you know.  Even in India they came with a gun in their hands, you know.  They killed so many people and tortured them, and people had to be converted.  So, the idea of forgiveness is not there at all with them, nor do they understand one thing that his message is not the cross.  His message is his resurrection.  If you go to the Sistine Chapel of the Vatican, I must say Michelangelo has seen his form because he puts up a huge big Christ.  A huge big VitaLambodara with a big stomach like that.  Standing there throwing people this side and that side very strong.


And down on the table I don’t know who has put there, a very miserable creature called Christ just bones hanging there.  I think this must be sadist.  To think like that Christ was just bones.  Do you think any one of these people who claim to be Christians can carry that cross?  I mean they have no feelings about it.  If you see that you start crying.  Why are they showing Christ like that?  So, when this chakra opens out, we have to know that all of our karmas about which Krishna has talked, Brahma has talked are sucked.  He sucks the karmas.  Of course, we have those deities also within yourself at different points of our evolution no doubt.  Christ has said, that those who are not against me are with me.  Now who are those?  He said it very clearly.  Now you gave him only four years the poor thing to talk about anything.  How can he talk of things which are so important and subtle?  That might be the reason that God must have hurried you up.  He doesn’t tell you lies I must tell you that.  I have to confess it is so.  Now when he has, still despite everything, you must say, Christianity has written lots of truths about Christ somehow.  Though Mr. Paul, who came in after, I don’t know how he is there.  He is the one who ruined Christianity completely.  Because he was not, he never met Christ.


He was epileptic and he had killed a disciple of Christ called Simon.  Such a cruel mind becomes author in the Bible.  When I saw first the Bible, I asked my father who is this Paul he said I don’t know he is a stranger.  And ah, we call it a squatter.  And then he again incarnated as Augustine and changed Christianity completely.  And they don’t want to talk about mother at all.  The one they talk about is the father and the son, and what about the mother?  That is the Holy Ghost.  They don’t want to talk about mother.  I asked my father I said at least Martin Luther should have talked about the mother, why didn’t he talk?  He said that time the problem was from the Muslims and Muslims would have not accepted this theory that it was the mother of Christ who was so important.  So, he had to sort of avoid.  It was just a time it was so.  But I find even today there is a big struggle going on if a woman can have an ordination or not, as if the women are something from the streets or something hopeless, or…  We have our mothers as women, our sisters are women, our wives are women, daughters are women.  It is such an out of date and primitive idea I tell you.  Indians never had this idea, I tell you, you will be surprised.  They always call the women as a shakti, the power, and the housewife the most important thing.  And this has actually cursed Christians I think because they lack that womanly quality in them of real affection and kindness and joy. 


If you meet a Nun for one day you will be mad for the whole rest of your life.  She doesn’t smile, she doesn’t talk sweetly to you, she is so methodical like a machine.  How can she represent God?  And this is about all of them.  Because I told you I have been there and I know that, all of those things very well.  So, for us to know, that to follow Christ, is to first of all we have to have our self-realization.  We are to be born again, actually, not artificially, taking a certificate.  Born again, and what are you doing?  Collecting money.  There is another organization, oh we are Christians, we this, that, what are we doing?  Collecting money.  Everybody seems to be in the business.  I mean this is something I cannot understand, that everything has become a business in the name of God.  And people have become so much tuned with that idea, so much one with that idea that you have to pay, that they cannot understand somebody who says you cannot pay for God.  For your living process, they cannot understand.  They don’t want to accept such a person.  So here there are these centres within.  A simple question is why people get sick.  Because when these centres go into trouble, into imbalances, people get sick.  I’ll just talk to you about one centre.


Would be better about if I tell you about one centre that is called Swadishthana.  That is the centre that comes out of the Nabhi chakra, or the navel centre.  And it is responsible for giving us energy when we think, looking after our liver, our pancreas, our spleen, our kidneys, and part of intestine.  When we think too much, we use the grey cells of our brain.  When we are futuristic, we think too much.  What replaces these grey cells is this centre, which transforms the fat into the grey cells and looks after us.  So, what happens when you think too much?  What happens to you is that your too much thinking takes away most of the energy of this centre which has to look after your liver.  So, your liver suffers.  When your liver suffers you get a very overactive liver which starts losing its grip in the way the function of the liver is to eliminate the heat of the body which is the poison for us.  So, this heat of the body is to be released in the bloodstream.  But, because the liver fails, the heat starts moving upward and downward.  This is the reason why a disease like asthma is caused.  


Due to the heat, because the lungs, which are sponge-like, they become smaller and smaller with the heat.  Now one of the doctors who has got M.D. in India has studied also on asthma.  One of the subjects he has handled is asthma.  So, asthma is curable, in Sahaja Yoga it is curable because you stop this heat rising.  When this heat moves towards the heart, then it also affects the heart, and people get massive heart attacks due to this.  So, there are two types of heart attacks.  One comes from overactivity and one comes from inactivity where people get heart attacks like angina.  But the overactivity one is the one that is caused by the heat of the liver in the body.  A person starts thinning down, he doesn’t feel like eating any food, and also sometimes he gets migraine.  Early in the morning when he gets up, he feels giddy, feels like vomiting, he cannot stand travelling.  All these things are due to this liver, which has been neglected by this centre, Swadishthana.  Then, another work of this centre is to look after the pancreas which is responsible for dissolving your sugar for the use of the body.  But because that is neglected, you get diabetes.  Now in India, in the village, if you go, they take sugar where you have to put the spoon at right angles, otherwise they say it is no tea, it’s no tea.  So much sugar they take, they never get any diseases, no diabetes, nothing of the kind.  Because they work the whole day, sleep in the night, early in the morning again they go for a walk.


This is for the people who are sedentary and people who think too much, you get diabetes, especially the planners.  Most of the politicians get it, most of the politicians and bureaucrats.  They get this disease, diabetes.  Then the worst thing is the spleen.  Now spleen is the speedometer within us.  As you know there is a biorhythm, there is a rhythm, and this spleen keeps the rhythm, with a natural rhythm.  But we are the way we are made in these modern times.  We lead a very hectic life.  In the morning we get up… now the function of the spleen is to produce red blood corpuscles when there is an emergency.  So, when we get up in the morning, first we read the newspaper.  That is the greatest shocking thing.  And they will always put shocking things, they will never put good things there, will they?  Because they think there must be, there should be sensation for people because we have become so dull now, that we need real sensations even to wake up in the morning time.  So then what happens is that morning shock of the newspaper followed by another shock that we have to go now, hurry up we are late now, do this, do that, hurry up.  And then we get into the car without the breakfast, take the breakfast in hand and eating like that.  And the poor spleen is working out.  Then you come across a big jam, finished.  Then you start cursing the jam, and the boss, and everyone.  By the time you reach the office the boss is shouting at you.  


So, the whole rhythm of life is so funny.  Then the whole day, today she told me there are some stores open until nine o’clock.  I mean they must be dead by nine.  There is no siesta at all.  In the biorhythm you must have a siesta.  So in the morning they start at nine, end up at nine, what else, you will have blood pressure, you will have everything.  But the worst of all, with this kind of a thing, what you develop is the blood cancer.  You are vulnerable then, to the blood cancer, if you are a hectic person.  Now of course I must say Sahaja yoga has cured many blood cancer patients.  We have authentically proved it.  But, unless and until you are realized, unless and until you get your energy passing through that, and nourishing that centre, you cannot get that balance that we need.  Then another problem is with this heat you get constipated.  Constipation creates all kinds of problems.  And such a person also can have the effect on the kidneys and so the kidneys coagulate just like the heart, just like the lungs, and they get kidney trouble.  That is also curable.  You don’t have to go for dialysis.  The other day I was watching one film about dialysis I said oh God if this lady had come to Sahaja yoga she would not have died.  It can all be cured.  It can be done.  But for that, first of all, you must get your realization.  You must know yourself what our vibrations are, how to use them.  And you all can become expert doctors without even going to the medical colleges.  This is only about one centre I have told you.  On your fingertips as you see you can feel all the centres.


And if you know how to cure, then you can cure yourself and cure others also.  This is only on the physical level.  But also for all psychosomatic diseases where the psyche plays the part, Sahaja yoga is the one because it doesn’t deal with left side right side, it deals with the whole body, with all the chakras.  So you start feeling the balance and also so many mad people have been cured with Sahaja yoga.  Because that is also nothing, it is too much movement to the left.  Now these gurus also ruin you completely because they put spirits on you.  And you can never be alright, your health cannot be alright if you go to gurus.  First thing as a mother I would say at least you have retained a guru, you have paid him, at least your health should be alright.  Minimum of minimum, at least I should see some shine on your face but if you are so dilapidated.  And then they say no, no, our guru says you know you have to suffer. Then why do you want to have a guru for that.  You can suffer otherwise also.  Or they will say our karmas are such.  Then why is there a guru?  Throw away such a guru, useless fellow, good for nothing.  He can’t even look after your health.  He doesn’t know anything.  He is just giving you mantras, he just says you worship me, I am this, I am that, saying this and that, but what did you get out of that is the point.  You must find out what you got out of it.  Just going to a guru, going to everyone, touching his feet, why should you do that.  I don’t want you to touch my feet at all.


First of all you become alright. Unless and until you get your realization, I have nothing to do with any of you, you have nothing to do with me.  But when you get realization also you must know you got it because your kundalini rose.  So there is, there is no obligation at all, no obligation.  But it should not be a ego trip, of course, should not be a ego trip.  But should be understood.  Sahaja yoga is to be understood, to be imbibed.  And the whole knowledge should be known to you.  You should have the whole knowledge as to how it works, how it moves, and how you can cure people.  You should be empowered to raise Kundalini of others.  This Gregoire has spoken to you, ask him how many people he has given realization to.  You should be able to work it out.  Now we have Fernando from Bogota, ask him how many people he has given realization to.  We have Bubbit here from Switzerland, we have, you have here one very powerful one, Patrick, how many people he has given realization to?  But he says Americans don’t come, what to do?  He can’t give realization to stones.  It is a big problem.  Like sometimes you feel like you are in a desert or a wilderness.  What has happened or whatever it is…then another thing is it is not a serious thing, it is joy.  Spirit is the source of joy.  And joy is not happiness and unhappiness, it is joy.  Pure joy.  So it is not so serious.


I mean if you see any of these gurus they sit so serious, and I can’t keep serious for more than two minutes.  That also I put up a show.  What is there to be serious, it is all a play.  All a drama going on.  Of course I mean if you see somebody very sick or somebody suffering too much you do feel for that.  But then you feel that this person doesn’t want to listen to you, what to do?  It is so simple.  Then another thing was told to me yesterday, that because it is so simple that is why Americans don’t like it.  I said but everything fatal has to be simple.  Now supposing for breathing if you had to go to a guru pay him money and then only you could breathe, how many would have survived?  It is fatal if you do not get your realization.  So important it is.  It is the most important thing is to get your realization.  And if you don’t get your realization, then I don’t know in what category you will fall.  And that is the reason it has to be the simplest of simple.  Supposing you have to eat your food, you just put it in your mouth like that or do you go around like that?  But if that is the case that you have to go around and round, then it is wrong.  But, this is a conditioning that people have given you that you have to go around and around.  Some people say oh you still work you know still you have to do a lot, still you have to give some more money, come along.  Without money it won’t work out and so you have to go on giving them checks after checks until they start bouncing.  This is the situation.


Now we have to know that anything that is important has to be simple.  And the simplest of all, if you understand this, you won’t raise objections to this.  But if it is simple, so why not?  Again, I would say this way, that supposing I say there is a real diamond lying here.  And free, just you have to pick it up.  People from Australia will also come running.  In the same way we have to understand that we are the spirit, we have to be the spirit.  The only thing is we have to go deep into it.  Like if you find water in someplace.  You go on digging the well there, you don’t go on digging all over the places, isn’t it?  So, where you find a little of it, you go move into it, deeper and deeper, and then only the depth grows.  And that has to be done, must have patience with yourself.  That is all.  I have patience.  But you should have patience with yourself.  And every one of you can get it.  Not only you can become masters and next day when I can come you will be all be gurus, I know that.  But the gurus become so simple also.  So, regarding all these chakras and everything, I think I have covered in a very short way.  But, you can get a booklet on this and you can study it.  I don’t give many books to read also because book knowledge, we have some Sahaja yogis who are experts in book knowledge, but they don’t feel vibrations so what is the use?  So, it is not the book knowledge, it is the knowledge within yourself which is important.  Your own growth is important.  So, you have to strive for that growth and you must achieve that growth.


Now any questions? I would like to answer some questions, and then we will do the realization part.  

Gregoire: We will collect some more questions Shri Mataji, they are written here

Shri Mataji: English, yes?

Gregoire: Yes. Anyone else have a question written down?  Please raise your hand.  No other questions, ah…

Shri Mataji: Why is a… ?  I just can’t read it you know, I am sorry.  The spellings are alright but I just can’t read it.  What does this say?  

Yogi: How does prosperity relate to the awakening of the spirit? 

Shri Mataji: That is it?  Oh, no, no.

Yogi: With the realization will I accomplish my goals and dreams and desires easier?

Shri Mataji: Ah.  What did you say this one is?  How does… ? 

Yogi: How does prosperity relate to the awakening of the spirit? 

Shri Mataji: Ah, this is a nice question, you see, the first one is. with the realization will I accomplish my goals, dreams, and desires easier?  Of course you will, no doubt.  


Now whatever we think before realization, we don’t think the same way after realization.  Because our awareness becomes different.  Our dreams change, our goals change, and also what else?  Desires change.  Like today supposing somebody wants to build a house, for example.  Then he says alright I must have a house in such and such place, and this and that, or something exorbitant, which he can never afford.  But then he feels his reality and he thinks what is this of having such a big house?  What is the need?  But he gets a good house somehow because the divine power works out for him.  And which he enjoys without much difficulties.  But he doesn’t aim at something funny or something which is just beyond.  There was a gentleman who had very great dreams this and that. And he wanted to go to a country and he said I would like to go to that country Mother and it would be a good idea if I could go.  So, he got the chance and within ten days he was back.  I said why?  It was horrible.  People are horrible.  They don’t talk too properly.  They treat you like slaves.  I said then why did you want to go there?  He said now I realize.  So when you face the reality then you change your ideas.  


Because you have no substance, you live in an imaginary world.  But when you get the substance, you want to lead a life which is reality.  And reality is the most beautiful thing.  So the designs also change like you see people have sometimes designs which are just to show off.  Like one gentleman bought a kind of a horn and he took it to India.  And he said this is a beautiful horn.  I said this is horrible.  It will trouble everyone, it is a horrible horn, you should not bring.  Well, he put it on and he was in jail very soon.  Because he was disturbing everyone.  So the thing is we do not know what we want is also benevolent for us or benevolent for the society.  Because you become a collective being.  All the time you think what is good for the benevolence of everyone and my benevolence also.  So the priority goes to the benevolence.  Like now somebody once said that oh I must go and get drunk, I now must have something to get drunk in a pop supposing he decides.  But after realization he sees the people who come out of the pub falling down.  He said no not me, I am not going to pay to get this.  So the wisdom part is so beautiful.  I have told you overnight people have given up drugs.  I mean a drug addict wants what?  His designs are how to get drugs by hook or crook.  But he gives it up completely and he is a free bird.  This is one point.  How does prosperity relate to the …, how does prosperity relate to the awakening of the spirit?


Now the prosperity is a idea.  It’s an idea. Now for example I will tell you like we will say that Americans are prosperous, alright.  Indians are not, in a way.  But in a way they are prosperous.  For example if you want to buy a good present for a friend you go to an Indian shop you can get a beautiful silver, or a beautiful ivory piece, or a beautifully carved thing which will cost you here a thousand pounds, thousand dollars.  While it will cost you only about hundred dollars. 

[ Transcript of “Continued – Questions and Answers” audio]

If you want to buy a good paper to cover it you can’t get it you have to come to America to buy that.  So this affluence is plastic affluence.  This prosperity is plastic affluence.  You see like we have diamonds, we will have pearls, we have emeralds, we have rubies, we have everything.  Every household everywhere whether poor or rich will be having at least two to three tola means about thirty grams of gold, every household, and silver, in India, though they are poor.  They may be even beggars, still they will have it.  It is so cheap there.  So, the affluence that we see is an idea.  Then you get rid of the one thing and throw it away and bring another thing, throw it away.  Because they are worth throwing away.  But if you have one good plate of brass, is sufficient, is better than twelve plates of plastic, I mean even hundred plates.  So, the affluence is also to be understood in proper sense.  What is affluence?  Affluence is that which gives you satisfaction.  If you have got now today a house, so tomorrow you want to have a car, then day after a helicopter, then an aeroplane, I don’t know how it goes on.  That means whatever you desire is not from pure desire.  You are jumping from one to another.  And whatever you wanted people will kill themselves to achieve some sort of a possession.  


And when they achieve it they will not even take two minutes to forget it and think of another one.  They can’t enjoy what they have desired for all these years.  So that shows it is not pure desire.  The pure desire, the power of pure desire is the kundalini.  Once you get your connection with the spirit the whole priorities change.  Priorities change and then you know what is good and what is bad.  Then you may not have so many junks but you will have something nice with you which will have vibrations.  Your idea of beauty, idea of prices will completely change.  And it is such a joke that I tell you that if you buy something in Florida for say ten dollars you can get the same for five dollars in San Diego, and for a hundred dollars in New York, so what is the price?  I mean such a madness in one country, not only in one country but in two stores.  It is a common thing.  I mean you all must have experienced it.  It is not me.  So your priorities change about things.  Then you take things which are very beautiful in the sense that they emit vibrations and you live with them happily.  But I personally think that all material things are good because you can communicate your love through them.  It is nice that you can give nice things to others.  That is the greatest joy at least for me.  


The most enjoyable thing is to give something really nice to somebody.  To know what one needs and to give that.  So many times, when I give something, they say Mother how did you know I needed.  I say I just love you; you know.  In love you know everything, love is knowledge, and knowledge is love.  And the most nourishing and the most joyous thing is to give.  And then you understand what is the right thing to do.  Selfishness, possessiveness, all these things are headaches.  Really, it is a big headache.  Say this is my carpet, then it is a headache for me, because I will be worried it is not too short, I hope they have not cut it out, something wrong with it, thank God it is not mine.  So, I can enjoy it better.  But if I am a realized soul, then how do I enjoy it?  I look at it, and the one who has created it, that joy completely flows, giving me joy.  It is not important that it should belong to me.  It can belong to anyone as long as you can enjoy it.  And you will enjoy it better if it doesn’t belong to you.  I tell you in a way because then you don’t have to look after it somebody else looks after it and you enjoy it.  So, this madness also of accumulation of possessions and all that, makes you mad.  So, the best thing is, if you have to have something, you must have them, you must enjoy them as well as keep them until you give it to somebody else.  


But you will be amazed that when you start doing this you will be filled with things, like if you open this door air will not come, but if you open the other door such a blast of air will come.  I tell you I suffer from overloading.  If you give somebody so little, they give you so much.  I mean, I didn’t mean that, but it happens.  It just happens.  So that by giving you get something that you want, because they know what you want.  While you go to a shop you just don’t get it you are so frustrated.  I’ll tell you about Gregoire one day we went to a shop in India I wanted, liked a sari, but I thought it was rather expensive.  I am a little miserly about myself, but I came away.  I don’t know when he went there, he bought the sari.  And suddenly he offered to me.  Of course, I don’t like to take things from my younger people but you see my heart was filled with such love.  Look at him how he thought of it that Mother didn’t buy so let me buy this for her.  Of course, I can return that in some other way, always.  But see the sweetness, the subtleness of this.  I keep that sari very carefully because it has represented that sweetness of a son who just thought I didn’t buy the sari so he went and bought it for me.  It is not worth much as such but it is very precious to me because it expresses that love of a son.  So, the world is so beautiful the way you make it.  And I would say that if you ever come to India, we have about two thousand people there, all of them like you, realized souls.  You should see how they live.


They don’t fight, they don’t quarrel.  I have never seen them quarrelling.  Just sometimes they pull each other’s legs, that is nice.  And sometimes also hit each other, and real enjoyment of friendship, real enjoyment.  There is no problem that this woman is running with that man, that man running with that one.  No such things, nonsense.  It is so pure, such pure relationships.  Such love and such enjoyment.  And they don’t want to leave the place.  We are there about ten days, they say Mother we don’t want to leave it.  It is described already by Rabindranath Tagore.  The whole description of this is there that people from all races will be coming.  We have people for all countries, from all kinds of people, all races, all religions, everyone.  We have so many Muslims also.  You will be surprised when I went to Russia what really made me feel very happy was that twenty-five Germans came to give realization to Russians.  You don’t know how everybody felt.  They hugged them, they loved them.  And, I mean it was really a sort of a pure understanding that now we are one.  We are one.  Part and parcel of one.  Such a thing should happen.  Then Americans go to Russia and just get one with them.  They are all like us and you are like them.  There is no difference.  Before realization all these problems, then you realize we are just the same.  Such a world we have to create.  


And Americans have a very, very great responsibility because your country is a very important centre in the universe.  Which is this centre here.  Which stands for collectivity.  This is the centre you represent for collectivity.  You are in a way very collective, in a way, but not yet aware of it.  You are responsible for all the collectivity of the world.  That is the centre you are.  And if you people realize then I tell you this world would be a different world all together.  Absolutely.  It is Americans because they are the trendsetter.  But the kinds of trends you have set in before have been horrible.  So now let us now start the real trend.  And that is what has to work out.  I think you all have been realized.  You all got your realization the other day.  You have all felt the cool breeze.  And I have to just tell you that we have a nice centre here.  You all can meet all these people here and master it.  Absolutely you can master yourself, you become your own master.  And you will be amazed at your own improvements.  Healthwise I told you that you drop at least ten to twenty years of your age first of all.  All your wrinkles, everything, disappear.  When I am sixty-seven, I have no wrinkles at all.  I mean I never worry.  I mean I have a hole here from where all the worries go out.  In the same way you also have got now the hole.  


It is as simple as that and it has to work out.  I am sure all of you will get it and will establish yourself.  I think Florida is a very, very fertile land for that.  I have been telling him, the people are much more relaxed and it is a God blessed place.  I feel that way.  And, I have told him that I will come next time for a…, at least for eight days and work it out in Florida.  America, I think Florida and San Francisco are just the opposite of each other.  So, I have stopped going to San Francisco.  They are not family minded people.  They do not have this value system.  They don’t have that feeling for their children as you people have.  You are very different.  But San Diego is very different too.  See it is …, I don’t know.  But New York horrid, horrid, absolutely horrid.  But we have places like here, there, there, where people are coming up, like the fertile land as you can say, Christ has said where the seeds fell down onto the stones then onto the fertile land so I think that Florida will work out and I am with you all the time.  Whatever help you will need; I will be there.  And, also these people are here.  They will tell you all about it.  It will all work out now.  Any more questions are there?  I mean…

Gregoire: Now we do the questions Shri Mataji?

Shri Mataji: What are the questions? Are …?  Such a long one, it is a lecture.  


Now you have asked me a question, is good.  But that if self-realization is so simple like reading, eating, etcetera, why is it that we cannot …  why is very common here, so we cannot simply be realized but we need someone to show us.  Why has the process become so obscure?  We all breathe, eat instinctively.  Why isn’t realization automatic?  Now, for your information, that you have come from matter.  From matter to living state there was an incarnation.  And from the living state to human state there have been incarnations, one after another.  Somebody had to lead you.  That has been.  They had to lead you.  In the same way, in realization also, you have to be led.  You will be amazed, there are some people who are born realized but they don’t know anything about it.  They don’t understand themselves.  They have vibrations, they cure people, they get sick, uh …, they get into problems, and they have no idea as to how it works out.  Somebody has to tell you what it is.  It is like a child if he is born in a jungle, he is to be told.  In the same way, you are to be told.  Now in America if you come, you have to ask even how to enter into a house because maybe, you see, you don’t know how to open the door.  


In the same way there has to be someone who has to tell you.  And if it would have been this way, it would have been very good for me, but it is not.  I have to work hard and I have to tell you about these things.  It is very simple but this last realization is not only physical, is not only mental, emotional and spiritual means that you have to have the powers to do it.  We never had these powers before.  Before this, supposing we want to eat, alright we could eat, but we could not make an ant eat like us.  We have to make others like us.  This is the problem and that is why you need someone to tell you all about it.  It is not like just breathing.  Breathing, we do breathe, agreed, and everybody can breathe.  But supposing there is a stone.  You cannot make the stone breathe, can you?  This is a living process again, and for the first time you can do living process, first time.  You can raise the kundalini like that.  That means you see with your own eyes the movement many a times, of the kundalini, many a times, not always, because sometimes it rises like a jet.  So, because you have to do the living work somebody has to tell you.  So far you have not done any redemption of anyone.  A stone is a stone, fish is a fish, animal is an animal.


But, now you have to make non-realized souls into higher people.  That for that you have to know.  And one should not feel hurt after all.   I tell you I will be very happy if you can do it.  I would like to retire myself.  But it is not done, you see, that is what the problem is, somebody has to do it.  Alright just a second part, so understand the importance of self-realization.  It is not only self-realization.  You have to give self-realizations to others.  It is not only you get self-realization; you have to give it to others.  This light has to go to others, for that you have to know how to do it.  Local papers have given covers to TM, Ram Dass, and other teachers, how come you have not been covered?  Because they must have given them money.  Yah, of course.  It is all money oriented.  Apart from that there are people who are giving money to the newspaper that I should not be published.  You will be surprised in the U.N., where my husband has worked for sixteen years now, he has been re-elected, re-elected as the Secretary General by a hundred and thirty-four nations.  And they wouldn’t leave him, he had to resign to get out of that place.  He is the senior most Secretary General in the U.N.  Despite that, to get into U.N., our organization is one of the organizations as they have sixty there, it was impossible because of all these people; TM, Ram Dass, Chin Moi, this that, all sorts of people.  They oppose it, but luckily, the good news is now they have to give in.


It is only in opposition these newspapers have done it to.  Better write to them, is a good idea, to local papers.  Why don’t you write about Mother?  She has done so much good.  And why do you write about TM and this Ram Dass, who harm people.  Better write to them.  Anything is possible.  You see they are very much against me.  They try to harm their level best but so far, you see, they are harm not me.  Because, you see if you try to harm someone you get back very nicely in your neck.  So most of these gurus, Rajneesh tried to harm me, and next week he died.  So, most of these gurus are finished like that.  What is … ?,

Yogi: What is the ultimate goal of Sahaja Yoga?  

Shri Mataji: What is the ultimate goal of Sahaja Yoga?  Sahaja Yoga has no goal.  It’s a technique.  It is a method, a natural method that works it out.  The ultimate goal is to become the Spirit; for you, not for Sahaja Yoga.  But not ultimate, there is further on, but still first of all become the Self.  As Buddha has said you first become the Self.  Do people reincarnate?  Of course, they do.  If they reincarnate and if they do is the purpose to become closer to a more aware of… I can’t read it.  

Yogi: Do people reincarnate?  And if they do is the purpose to become closer and more aware of God each time.

Shri Mataji:  More aware?

Yogi:  More aware of God each time.  There is a second part to the question too.

Shri Mataji: Alright.  Now he is asking do people reincarnate into.


They do reincarnate.  And this is the trial, error and trial method.  Then you want to do, say supposing somebody wants to marry a lady.  Hankering after her, I must marry her.  So next life he marries and then says oh God, please, never this.  To learn the lessons, you see, you have to reincarnate.  If and if [inaudible], yes, of course, they become better and better, naturally.  Because they learn a lot of lessons, you see, so they become better and better.  Do you always progress closer to God in each life or do some people get further out?  Of course, some people do get further away and some people get nearer to God.  It is up to them. It is easy.  You have got the freedom.  If you want to go to heaven, you can go to heaven.  If you want to go to hell, you can.  One hippy asked me how do you go to hell.  I said take to running jumps and you are there.  A group of people believe in bible or Gita very strictly and lives according to the scriptures.  Those people facing man problems and sufferings in their lives than other people.  What is the reason for that?  Mataji believes in karmas and what is your opinion about that?  Now, to say that we follow bible is wrong or to follow Gita is wrong.  I already told you about bible, how we don’t do what we are supposed to do.


But I will tell you about Gita.  First and foremost thing, Krishna has said: “yoga-kshema vahaamy aham” first of all you should take to yoga and only then I will look after your kshema.  So, he is not responsible then.  That is why you suffer, first point.  Second point, you seem to read between my lines of Gita you have to be a realized soul.  Krishna was an incarnation of divine diplomacy.  At that time, it was necessary to be diplomatic.  He did not say things straight forward but in such a way that only a realized soul can understand.  For example, he first said, first of course, he said that you should take to gyana yoga.  That is of knowledge.  Of course, that doesn’t mean reading.  Many people think reading means knowledge.  No, he meant that you should feel it on your central nervous system, your buddha.  Then your second, that is the best he said. And then you will; siddha praghya, means a realized soul.  Then the second point he said that for bhakti yoga that you do your bhakti that is pushpa polum (?) phala (?); give me flowers or fruits or water anything I will accept.  But when it comes to his bhakti he has used one word and all that all the Hindus are dancing.  They don’t know.  He has said the word ananya.  Do the bhakti which is ananya means when you are not the other.  That when you have become one with me, that is the bhakti.  That is ananya bhakti.  Now they know all these words; ananya.  But Hindus have slipped that point completely.  They think by going Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram, you see your throat will be spoiled.  Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, this is Krishna’s place.  Those who sing Hari Rama, Hari Krishna have gone mad.


Not only that, not only that they go mad but they get cancer of the throat.  Why?  Because after all, to take the name of God, what is your right?  See when you take the name of Mr. Bush, supposing you go and shout out eh, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, he will put you in the bush.  You have to have some protocol.  You just can’t go on calling God’s name like this.  He is not in your pocket, just you take it out and say that; Rama and Krishna.  They are incarnations.  You can’t take their names like that.  So, what he said that when there is ananya, when you are not the other, when you are a realized soul, then only you should do bhakti, means devotion.  Before that, no.  And the third thing he has said is: first is the gyana; second is the bhakti; and third is the karma.  That is also very interesting.  He said you do all the karmas.  You do all the action, everything.  But put is at the lotus feet of Shri Krishna.  That you cannot, because there is still ego.  But many people will say yes, yes, I did this, and I put it at the lotus feet of God.  You murder someone, put it at the lotus feet of God.  You do not.  Unless and until you get your realization, you do not.  Because then your karmas become akarmas.  Means nonaction.  You will see when you will be working on people you will say Mother it is going it is coming, it doesn’t work out.  Mother, what to do?  You will never say I am doing, I am raising, no.  You will say it is going, it is working.  It is not [? Kavika]  You will say like that.  That means that you are saying in the third person all the time.  Like a little child, you see, if you ask him.  I asked a child will now will you go home now?


No, this woman doesn’t want to go.  What to do?  So, you get into akarma.  Like the sun which shines which doesn’t know it is shining.  You do the thing without thinking that you are doing it.  It is only possible after self-realization.  So, he has hinted at that only what people have not realized.  So, they are going Hari Rama, Hari Krishna like mad.  I mean by saying that if you can reach God everybody in India says that morning ‘til evening.  They must be all nearly there.  All absurd ideas.  And substantiated by the priests, very nicely, alright, I will give you a mantra, come along, this is the mantra.  At least they don’t get, give horrible mantras like TM.  But still, they give some sort of a say Rama, why do you need anyone to tell you that you can always say it.  But, you should not.  Here it is, I have seen people: Christ!  They say Christ for everything.  I mean they see anything horrible, Christ, and what Jesus also, you say, America?

Yogi: Yes. Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ.

Jesus.  Everything.  How can you say that?  He is God.  You can’t call him like that.  Just to say Jesus at everything.  Even once you say that vibrations start flowing.  Once, just once is sufficient once you are related to him.  So, we have to understand the protocol part of it.  So, this is what the Gita people read Gita, no use reading anything.  Like sick people, they have a very good book.  


Which Nanak sahib worked out very well that he got all the realized souls.  He put all their poetry there and he said now this is the book for you.  You learn from here.  So, they sit down in two and a half days the book should be finished.  So, one person reads something, puts his finger, then another one comes from that finger, he reads, puts his finger.  They are all reading one after the other, just like Bible reading.  For two and a half days they read and end up with nothing.  Because what he has said is that why are you running here and there?  It resides in your heart, seek it in your heart.  Now supposing this is the medicine he has given, that seek it in your heart.  Supposing you are having a headache and that is alright, you take headaches for it.  You are going to, you take headaches, you take headaches, will your headache go away?  You have to take the medicine that they have said it.  That is why those who read books just read the prescription but not take the medicine.  That is why.  That is why these people suffer.  Otherwise why should they suffer is Kubera.  What is there to suffer?  You know how he helps Sudama?  But you have to be like Sudama.  Alright.  Practically the questions are over.  I think I better meet you all.  Will be a better idea.  And see that you all have your Realization intact.  I am sorry I am going away so early.  Next time I am definitely going to be here for some time.  You are already looking younger, this lady.  They can come.

Yogi:  there is a line to come see Shri Mataji

Yes, I will just sit there.  You can pull the chair up. 

*(about William Blake)