Talk to Scientists

Leningrad (Russia)

1990-06-28 Talk To Scientists, Leningrad Russia DP-RAW, 93' Download subtitles: EN (1)View subtitles:
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“Talk To Scientists,” Leningrad (now St. Petersburg), (Russia)

 …one electromagnetic energy that you have, what we call as a ‘prana’ – means all the energy from five elements. It has the energy by which we are today human beings from amoeba. And it has the energy which creates desires within us. It has the energy that can cure us and redeems us. And it has the energy that can give us powers so we can do living work. Sahaj Yoga is with that energy, which is in totality, complete consciousness. 

And it is a special time today, or you can say in modern times, that there are so many people who are trying to think beyond. We can say it is meta-modernism. And that is something which shows the wisdom of people who understand that we have to go beyond. And they are not satisfied with what they are but they have to go beyond. And there are so many who feel that their awareness is to be expanded. 

In this short time whatever was possible I have tried to give you a general picture about Sahaj Yoga. ‘Saha’ means ‘with’, and ‘ja’ is ‘born’. So it is born with you to have this union with that All-pervading Power, this right you have.

It works on all living things, and also on energies. For example, you can improve your agriculture with Sahaj Yoga ten times more. You can improve your ecological problem through Sahaj Yog. You can make your animals much more healthier through Sahaj Yoga. And you yourself become so dynamic and so compassionate that a scientist becomes a person who works only with all the understanding of [the] limitations of science, and helps to create a new world. 

I must say, all the scientific discoveries have helped Sahaj Yoga greatly. Supposing there were no aeroplanes I would not have come to see you. If there were no microphones I could not have talked to you. And these microphones also carry vibrations. Even on television one can give Realisation to people. So all the discoveries you have made, have been of such a great help to Sahaj Yoga. We have developed the watches to save time. We save our time to waste it mostly. And after Self-realisation, we use it for our spiritual ascent and our spiritual growth through meditation. So I am very much thankful to you all scientists for creating these devices which have made it possible to spread Sahaj Yoga all over the world. 

The knowledge of Sahaj Yoga is very deep. Our civilisation has grown as a big tree, but knowledge of Sahaj Yoga is the knowledge of the roots. And if you do not have the knowledge of the roots, this great development will be one day under a shock. So it is important for us to know the knowledge of the roots if we have to survive and to enjoy the blessings of science.

I am sorry, in this short time I cannot say much but I will be very happy to answer your questions if you have any. 


As a scientist you have to understand everything, whatever you do. If somebody cures you and cannot explain how, then you should not accept it, as a scientist. But I know that, what happens. 

This is something which is not dealt with by scientists, so far. Only in the scriptures they have talked about the soul. Now [about the] soul, whatever I am telling you, again, you should accept it as a hypothesis. 

Now soul is a composition of the causal of five elements. It’s in an energy form and it’s placed on the backside of our spinal cord in seven loops. 

After Self-realisation you can even see the All-pervading Power like small commas shining like light. Also you see a kind of looped, circular things, looped ones and the Sahaj Yogis asked me, “What is this?” I told them these are dead souls. Now for example we talk of psychosomatic diseases. Also doctors have reached a certain point of understanding that most of the psychosomatic diseases are caused by something that comes from our collective subconscious. For example, cancer, they say, is triggered by a protein 53 and 58 – it’s a name [they’ve] given. And they say that it comes from the area which is built within us since our creation. Now, this area which is built within us is the area which we call as collective subconscious. So all the plants which have gone out of the circulation of evolution, or dead people who have gone out of the circulation are all existing in that area of collective subconscious. So a person who practices what we call as black magic, or mesmerism also, uses the dead souls which are around to captivate you. And people do mesmerise without knowing what effects it will have on human beings. Now, what happens [is] that if you put any such spirit – it can be without the knowledge of the person who is doing it, automatically – he becomes like a medium. And then this spirit lets out your system. Now recently they have found out in the science, scientific research, that we have all got receptors and in the receptors these seven loops that I am telling you about, are reflected exactly in the same way. I have seen pictures. If you see the picture, it’s the same that you see. 

And when, on these loops, if there is any effect then, what you call as the dopamine is created. Dopamine is a kind of a chemical which gives you epilepsy, can give you madness can give you all mental problems, also other virus and cancers – psychosomatic [diseases]. 

So I didn’t know that I would be talking to scientists, otherwise I would have brought these papers which I have got from America. So we had about ten people yesterday, who came from the same gentleman and were suffering from many diseases. Some had their hands stuck like that, they couldn’t walk; some children suddenly stopped talking, some got their eyes completely squinted, some got the brain paralysis. 

So what happens [is] that you can put one of them, or many of these, dead spirits on your back, on the soul, and they take over. And when they take over then they try to assert their personality. So for the time being one may feel elated because there are so many personalities acting. For a while. But after sometime that person becomes exhausted and a recluse. This is followed by many false gurus in India. We know about it very well because this black magic is too much in India. But mainly what one has to know, I would say [is] that as a Mother I would say what did you get out of it? Only temporary curing is not the aim of life. But you are to be empowered and you have to have full knowledge as to what you are going to be. In Sahaj Yoga you know all about the centres and it can be proved. 

You can even see with your naked eyes the pulsation of the Kundalini, this power which connects you to the mains. You can see also, sometimes, the rising of the Kundalini. You can feel the cool breeze coming out of your head, the actualisation of it. And you can feel the All-pervading Power. You may be a doctor may not be a doctor, but you can give diagnosis of yourself, what centres are in trouble. 

There are three channels which look after the sympathetic nervous system and parasympathetic nervous system, and you can control them. You can control your parasympathetic nervous system. You can raise the Kundalini of others. You can cure others. Yourself, you feel extremely peaceful, joyous and happy, because you develop a new dimension of collective consciousness, which Jung has written [about]. So you become completely knowledgeable like a laboratory. You know everything. It is not just, “It is happening. I don’t know how happening.” Nothing of the kind. Everything can be explained. Everything becomes logical. So anything that just cures you is not sufficient. 

In India this art is very well developed but we know about it so much that we now don’t go to any false people. So now they are exported all to America. They are very gullible. Americans are very gullible people. And these people have only interest in money, they are money makers. Now it’s a living process. How can you pay for a living process? How much do we pay to Mother Earth for sprouting a seed? These people have all their interest in money and not in giving you the powers and the knowledge, because they haven’t got it. So first of all you must see what are the disciples like, what do they do, what age they are, what sort of a body they have. How do they talk? What is their health? Do they know about all this? Can they explain it? How is their own life? You can find out. They have to be honest and they have to be compassionate. So be careful! So many will come once you have lots of money, there will be a market here. So before anything happens, be careful. I am a Mother and you have asked me the question I have to tell you the truth. 

Eighteen years back I have told this but they would not listen to me. In America I told them about AIDS, I told them about yuppies disease is going to come, I told them about so many diseases they would not listen, and now they are down with it. So what can you do? If they don’t want to listen to you, you can’t help it. If they are bent upon their destruction then what can you do? You have all the freedom. Or somebody asked me, “How do you go to hell?” All types of questions they ask, I said, “Take two running jumps and you are there!” 

So it is like this: for getting your Realisation you have to first ask for it, I have to respect your freedom and it’s not a guarantee that you will get it at first shot. But if you are earnest it will work out and then once you are fully connected [you’ll have] no problems of any kind.

I found Russians to be very wise people. And I feel that a day will come when Russians will be the most powerful people spiritually. The country is not powerful by weapons but by the powerful people it has. 

Thank you very much.


Just a minute. This question is still not answered. 

After Realisation, we become very sensible and satisfied people and we develop a balance. Then we realise that the machines are for us and we are not for machines. So we produce as much as we want and whatever is necessary we produce through machines or we produce through our hands. So a balance is created. As a result of that the pollution goes down. 

Now in Spain there are five motor factories. Now, on the road, you will find in a car only one person sitting, in every vehicle. Because so many cars are produced every day, cars are cheap so they buy a car and an ego there, “I have got a car!” The father must have one car, mother must have one car, the child must have one car, the grandmother must have one car. And they never meet each other: no rapport, no relationship. They live with their cars with their pretty girls and with their suitcases. So, after Realisation we become collective. There may be three cars but everybody would like to go together in one car. They want to live collectively because they enjoy each other. 

Now Sahaj Yoga is working in forty nations. And they want to live in Indian villages, and life is very spartan, I mean you cannot do anything there, but they enjoy having their baths in the flowing river, and living in the nature – absolutely very happy and comfortable. They wear few clothes of cotton or pure silk or cotton, whatever they can afford. Not too many things they have in their house like plastics, mountains and mountains, and they don’t know how to destroy it. And Sahaj Yogis don’t drink so only one glass is sufficient for one man. For drinking you have to have one separate [glass], another one, another one, another one. 

And too many choices because of ego. In the morning the mother will ask, “What will you have?” One child will say this, another this, another that. And if that is not in the fridge the child will start shouting. Formerly the mother used to cook for everyone the same thing, and everybody had to eat that and enjoy it. Because we have lost our collective enjoyment we have become like this. 

Now these entrepreneurs are also making [a] fool of us. First they will start that you should wear very tight pants: so you develop varicose veins. So they will say alright make pants with holes in it. So everybody starts wearing them! They go on changing fashions because their machines have to run. And we have no personality, we all want to be fashionable. What is the need? So we have piles of clothes. If you go to an English home and as soon as you enter in, all the piles will fall on you, first of all. 

So, this matter is only for one purpose: is for expressing your love. 

Like today we had a birthday, so we gave him a tea set. And I got some necklaces for all of you; and I enjoyed it very much, giving them. 

That’s the only advantage of matter, otherwise possessions are headaches. So, how ecological problem has come by [is] because of our greed and lust. After Sahaj Yoga you get everything beautiful and enjoy everything, because you feel that this has become a holy water now (pointing to Her glass of water). Everything becomes holy, auspicious. Only thing which are auspicious, which emit vibrations, Sahaj Yogis will have. All auspicious things are benevolent. So the ecological problem is solved! (Applause)

(A lady asks a question in Russian. She then seems to ask another question)

Which diseases can be cured by Sahaj Yoga?

Shri Mataji: The [answer to the] first question is that some diseases can be cured through Sahaj Yoga – as you have seen, [by] raising of the Kundalini. Yesterday there was a lady with multiple sclerosis, and she couldn’t even stand up or even sit properly. And we raised her Kundalini, she had problems on her centres, we corrected the centres raised her Kundalini, gave her Realisation and she got alright. And then she still was remembering that she was sick so she was holding onto the chair. I said, “Now you get up and walk!” And she then started walking so fast, everybody saw. But most of them get cured. But some of them do not also. 

Now, first of all, you have to get your Self-realisation, then you have to come to our collective programme and then you have to master Sahaj Yog, then you can cure others. But Sahaj Yoga is not for curing, it is for Self-realisation. And when you get your Self-realisation, as a bi-product, then you get alright. Because when the Kundalini rises, She passes through these centres and nourishes them. 

Question: Shri Mataji, if there were some psychological research done relating to influence Sahaj Yoga on people? Is it possible to see the findings of this research? And may I get Your blessing to conduct such research in centre of Sahaj Yoga in Moscow? 

(break in recording) 

Shri Mataji: …here accepted for research. But if you want to do it otherwise you can do it by using Sahaj Yoga methods to cure people who are suffering from psychosomatic diseases or depressions or anything, by treating them and then noting down their improvements. We have here a psychiatrist from England, who is here, and he can tell you about it. And we are all experimenting with many things. Is he here Dr. [Brian] Wells? Alright, you come and see him. He is now running seven hospitals in London. 

Now we have many doctors here and I think you should meet them, who have come from abroad; we should call them. Aap aaye ( Hindi: come). We have Dr. Talwar from Delhi. (applause) Now we have Dr Amjad Ali. He is from the UK (now Australia). And he’s a great student of medicine actually. He’s done a lot of studies in England. Then we have Dr Nigam from India. Then we have Dr. Sarah [Setchell]. Then we have got a diplomat from UN, Gregoire. Then in Russia we have got Dr. Bogdan [Shehovych]. Today is his Birthday. 

He has sacrificed his job in England and he is now here working it out for Russia. We hope to see some sense of scientists also for you from America. They’ll explain many more things to you. Also we’ll send you some papers that they have written. 

(Another two questions are asked by a man) 

First question translated as: How did you come to Sahaj Yoga, was it instantly?

Is Sahaj Yoga is universal science, which includes Hatha, Raja and other yogas or it is some new principle?

Shri Mataji: I should say I was born with this knowledge. 

The second question is about all other yogas. Now Hatha yoga is meaning ‘ha’ and ‘tha’ meaning the sun and the moon, both lines, both energies. But in modern times the Hatha Yoga they are practising is only of one side. Moreover the one who started Hatha Yoga was known as Patanjali. So thousands of years back he’s written a book so big as that, so thick. (Mother stretches out her hand to show the thickness). In that he has written that there are ashtangas, there are eight folds of yoga, eight aspects, spiritual paths. Out of that yama, niyama is the one which is just a wee bit, yama niyama, is the control and the laws. And out of that very wee bit are the exercises. Now we also use those exercises. But later on, throughout, he has talked about Sahaj Yoga. First you get thoughtless awareness and then doubtless awareness. 

In those days they used to only have one or two disciples who cleansed all their centres and then raised their Kundalini; and it could take years together. But now in the Sahaj Yoga, today, I have evolved a method by which first you raise the Kundalini somehow, and in that little light – give them little light – they see what’s the problem with them. And just tell them how to correct, so they can correct their own problems. 

In those days people have no time, and people are very obstinate also. So, now supposing there’s darkness and you are holding a snake in your hand and I say, “Now there’s a snake in your hand.” You won’t listen to me, you won’t throw it away till it bites you. You will say, “It’s a rope!” So best thing is to put a little light, so you see the snake, and throw it away yourself. This is today’s Sahaj Yoga. But it’s the same. What he (Patanjali) achieved after so many years you can achieve it yourself in a very short time. 

And also, as we have developed speed, I think Kundalini has also developed speed. We call this as ‘jet’ times and the Kundalini is also a jet Kundalini. I am myself surprised. It works en masse. Yesterday there were ten thousand people and I think 95% of people got Realisation.

But we do tell you exercises. When the Kundalini rises, then we tell you, if there is any physical problem, what exercises to be done. It’s all scientific. But these days, the way people do Hatha Yoga, they just take all the medicines from the medicine box without knowing what is to be taken, without any discretion. 

Now another is Raja Yoga: I went down to California and I saw some doctors whom I knew who had cut their thread under the tongue; and they told me that they had to cut it to do a thing called khechari, to take back the tongue, to raise the Kundalini. So now when the Kundalini rises it is like the ignition of a car. And when the car is ignited all the machinery works by itself, you don’t have to do anything. So what they do is to put back the tongue thinking [that] by doing that the Kundalini will rise. And poor things now can’t speak, can’t eat; very difficult. So it is like moving the wheels without starting the car, will it move? It’s all artificial. Nobody gets Realisation in that, because it’s a living process. Now there’s “Integral Yoga” –  that is all mental. Talking about yoga how can you get your Realisation? Supposing if you talk to the Mother Earth will she give us flowers? 

Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk – that’s all! People get fed up with their talks: books after books like this, so many (Mother stretches out her arms to measure). So far I have not written any book for the same reason. 

Then we have another one is Transcendental Meditation. That is the worst of all. We had four people from Transcendental: the man was the director of a ‘Flying Foundation’ in Scotland (break in recording)…[three hundred pounds] to get a mantra. And the mantras were told in secret and the mantras were rare, funny ones: ‘inga’, ‘pinga’, ‘tinga’! It has no meaning, it is not Sanskrit, it has no meaning. But it has [a] funny meaning also. ‘Inga’ means the scorpion’s bite. And ‘pinga’ means, when you get possessed you go round and round like that, that is pinga. And ‘tinga’ means when you show [your thumb] like this to someone. Three hundred pounds (£300) for that! And six thousand pounds for flying halfway. What a stupidity! What is the need to fly halfway? You already have traffic jams!

Then they were given, to drink, the water which boiled potatoes, for six days. Then the rind (skin) of potato. And the last day was given the potatoes to eat. But this director, his wife, his daughter and a deputy director all got epilepsy. So they came to meet me. Luckily my husband had gone on a tour, so they stayed in my house. And with my treatment they got cured. They had lost all their money. This man was a diamond merchant, he had lost all his money. His wife was a granddaughter of a duke, she had lost everything. 

What is this lady doing all the time? Please tell her to sit down!

And the granddaughter, who was the granddaughter of a duke, and this man, became bankrupt. So then the director and the deputy director became bankrupt. And he’s now gone to South Africa; he’s writing a book. The name of the book is, “How we were befooled”. This  is TM. And now they are bringing Ayurveda – TM is bringing Ayurveda. They are marketing it now, marketing it. There is no need for them to market it: anybody can take to Ayurveda. But for Ayurveda, you cannot do it here. You have to go to India because the herbs that are used for curing you, cannot grow here. 

So, just they are just trying to…I don’t know what are they up to. I just don’t know. They can’t bring Ayurveda here. I mean it is common sense: everybody knows in India that you can’t do Ayurveda anywhere else but in India. I think they will now give some sort of distilled water in the name of Ayurveda and take money, or maybe some water which has boiled the potatoes! One should know all these things. 

There’s another one who gives diamonds – supposed to do it – only to people who are very big cheats, in India. They are horrible people to whom he gives. They are cheats. If he is so good why doesn’t he solve our financial problem in India? All these people who go to him get heart trouble. 

I am telling you everything frankly. They will never talk against each other. Christ has said that the house of Satan will never speak against itself. 

They’ll never speak against each other. But they may speak against me. Ah, they do! They may speak against me and tell you that I must be a dark force or something, they might do. Because it is their business: they’ll be losing money when I am here!

Alright? So, thank you very much.