Conversation with yogis about current events and international politics, Canberra ashram (Australia), 12 February 1992.
Yogi: But there is a room here with a bathroom attached!
Shri Mataji: Would be better to be with you all! But in Melbourne I would like to stay in a hotel – would be better – just to show a little resentment at the way they are behaving.
How many came for follow-on last [time], after my programme?
Yogi: Fifty people.
Shri Mataji: Fifty people? And then how many stayed?
Yogi: Only three or four.
Shri Mataji (Laughing): That’s just like it. I don’t know, there’s something missing. I don’t know what is missing. Like in Russia I don’t know how people settle down that fast. They have never heard of God. I think we have too much conditioning of all these things – God and, religion, this that – which has deviated. So we are
between the two. Some people who believe in God, in a blind way, and are following something wrong, religions which are deviated; and there are some people, who are against it completely, they are atheist, intellectuals. So we are lost in between. And that’s why it takes time here. And there is not much of introspection also.
But I must say Russians are very introspective and very humble people, very humble. Even the media is very humble. The media people who came to see me there, even like Pravda, which is a hardliner I should say, was very good. Only thing they said something mischievous that, “It’s better Gorbachev goes and sees Mother because I think he needs Her help,” or something like that. That made him stop from coming and seeing me you see.
But, when they faced me they said, “Spiritually we are very poor: we have not known what spiritual life is, and how can we really establish ourselves into Sahaj Yoga? Please tell us how to do it.” It’s very surprising isn’t it?
But in the countries which are democratic we think we know all about religion, about God, and either [we think that] it is false or it is absolute truth: there’s nothing in-between.
I was reading about Islam, ‘Faces of Islam’. I was really amazed. It’s all Sahaj Yoga what Mohammed Sahib has preached, all Sahaj Yog. Only thing, He was not very much…He was born on the void level so naturally tried to establish the religion, and the framework of religion, how people should be and all that, which we have in Sahaj Yoga also same thing. But it’s not forced on us. It’s not forced: it’s a thing that is, absolutely innate: because we like it we do it. We love it and we enjoy it that’s why we do it, this is the difference. But the intellectuals in Islam are very sensible, I must say, much better than Christians; because they are admitting that there’s lot of deviation.
Never confuse Muslims with Islam. And whatever Mohammed Sahib has contributed is really very precious because He has said that, first of all, He has to make a framework, which He admitted; He has to make a framework. That means a, kind of a framework of thought and behaviour. But without giving Realisation if you make a framework it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. It drops out.
Everybody has made the same type of framework. We can say, Christians have the same framework, about the same.
He has also talked about seeking the truth and knowledge. He’s talked about it. Same way Christ has talked everybody has talked about. Also Buddhism, Jainism, anything, is just aiming at that kind of a society that we are. They are describing the society that we are. In Islam, He is describing that society. You won’t believe that it’s so much Sahaj. Just to give it a name of ‘Islam’ or give it a name of ‘Christianity’, or give it a name of any religion. We are there, and we are the ones who are really following these religions while those who claim to be have nothing to do [with God]. Not only but they have said that the Muslims have become very rigid: the reason is this, reason is that. Whatever may be the reason I think the basic reason is that they are not realised-souls. This is the basic reason.
So now when the Sahaj Yogis are innately enlightened – we call religion as our valencies which are enlightened – then we should become aware of it and we should try to follow that innateness within us. Because if you do anything else you will feel frustrated. You’ll lose your vibrations – that’s the first test – and you won’t like it. This innateness that they have described is not there in any religion, it’s just forced on them. So this artificial framework doesn’t work out.
This artificial framework doesn’t work out, and that’s what should be avoided in Sahaj Yoga, completely, that we have an artificial framework. Many people say, “Mother said so! Mother said so!” I may say anything: that doesn’t matter. How far you have gone with it is the point. Like, Mohammed Sahib said, then Sanjay [Gavalgani] in Geeta. So they said it, so what? You have to follow doesn’t mean that you just say, “I’m Sahaj Yogi,” but you have to do something about it and you have to get into it. And you must not only take advantage of Sahaj Yoga in a material way but in a spiritual way, then only people will be surprised to see you, that you are spiritually very different people: there’s no force on you, there’s no artificiality about it. It’s all reality which you are feeling, and you are in reality. That will impress people. And I think the trend of mind is going that side, very much now, and people are understanding it, that it has to be something real. All these artificial things are not going to work out. It’s all fiszling out, one by one.
I have been reading your newspapers. So now, I was surprised that they said the homosexuals are to be excommunicated. In England priests are allowed to be homosexuals. I mean, just imagine, how can there be two rules and regulations in the same religion?
In Sahaj Yoga, all these things which are wrong, just drop out. Your drugs drop out, your lethargy drops out, all these perverted ideas about sex drop out. It’s an innate cleansing power which cleanses you completely. But you must open yourself to it, aspire for it: so that’s how it will work out. That’s very important for you people those who are in the beginning, like the foundation. You have to form a very deep personality of Sahaj Yoga. If you are indulging into something small, stupid, or something very insignificant, then people are not going to take to you.
Come along! Come inside! You can come forward. Just move forward!
So Sahaj Yoga is not, what I say – [that] is not Sahaj Yoga. What you talk you must walk. Because I say so that doesn’t mean [that] by listening to me you become Sahaj Yogis. No. You have to practise it. And practising is very easy. It’s very easy to practise Sahaj Yoga because it is innately within you; it is joy giving; you enjoy your virtues and, you are so secured, so confident. Moreover such friendship, such brotherhood, such relationship [are there].
And the so-called ‘trend’ of individuality, is not very useful, because it is against the spirit of totality, of the whole. So individuality is alright, like on a tree every leaf is different every flower is different, everything’s different in the Nature you see, because [of] what you call variety. There should be variety. You should not be dressed, all of them, like military people, all of you looking the same. There should be variety, that’s how there’s beauty. But that doesn’t mean that you have your own individual ideas, about religion – you cannot. All these ideas must come from within. Whatever are your reactions to outside should not be your ideas, they should be inspired, a revelation from within. And if it comes to a revelation, then you will find that all of them are just the same, there’s nothing inconsistent. Everything just smoothly moves into one ocean.
So when ideas start trickling down…I think that’s another problem in the West: is that we think too much: think like this think like that. I mean all kinds of things go on in our heads. Everybody else is sitting in our head. First of all we have read a lot. This reading a lot also is dangerous because everybody’s ideas are in our head.
But then at the level of religion what happens is: one is swaha, another swadha. Swaha is that whatever you read, whatever you see, you consume; and burn off whatever is wrong. And whatever is good you absorb, that is swadha.
So first, I mean: you may read anything I was reading newspaper all kinds of things. Out of that I took out the essence of it, what is the problem. But still one will start choosing then whatever is good for us. I mean, you don’t eat poison if you know it’s poison. In the same way discretion comes in and you start getting to things which are digestible and which are nourishing to our growth in Sahaj Yoga. This is a very important point we should know: what do we do, read, what do we think, what do we enjoy, what do we consume. Because you are people with super intelligence, you have got, innately – your intelligence has been enlightened – so you should know how to grasp the things which are good for you, for your nourishment as Sahaj Yogis.
To be a Sahaj Yogi is a very unique thing. Think of so many people who have never even felt vibrations, have never felt this All-pervading Power. Think from that point of view.
But that should not give ego at all but should give more compassion and more understanding that so much is needed by people.
Our whole style sometimes takes us more outward than inside. So let us try to see how we can go inside. I think the only way is to achieve the state of thoughtless awareness, through collective living and through meditation, individually also: collective and also individual meditation. Try to come to a state where you are thoughtless. Try to put your attention on a thoughtless awareness level, then the growth starts, because that’s the present, not the past, nor the future.
So if you stop at, thoughtless awareness you start seeing something much beyond that exists. Now for example I see these flowers. Just see them. Now what does it relate to me? I should see, of course, the beautiful colour, the fragrance [but] immediately, the thought goes to the love, with which it is given – immediately. It jumps onto the essence of it. These are not given just for any expression of expectations but just to express the love. And I see that love immediately and that I enjoy. This is, a very important point that, in thoughtless awareness, you immediately jump onto a relationship with love. Say you see the nature around: immediately you feel, “Look at the love of God! How He has created this beautiful world for us. How He has given so many things to us!” And then this, horrible competitiveness just drops out. Because in the present only you can enjoy what you have achieved, not in the past or the future.
Say you, buy a little carpet like this. You wanted to buy, you must have worried about it, you must have thought of saving money whatever it is. When you buy it there’s no joy. Then you want to buy something else. Like this it goes on. But supposing you are in the present: here now I’m sitting with you in the present. I know all of you, very well, like a picture. Even the folds of your clothes and everything, your sitting position, everything is like a picture. And it comes to you and what does it feel? Just like these flowers: a very abstract, feeling of joy.
So we should try to live in the present, not in the future and in the past.
I’ve got so many letters of confessions: “I did this, I did that…” I mean, I never read them, never. You should not waste your energy in confessing. That’s a wrong thing to do. I don’t want to know it. But they send you know for their own, maybe, satisfaction, whatever it is. So doesn’t matter. So I just burn them off or tear them out.
So forget the past. That doesn’t mean that whatever has built you up to this level, you
should forget. Whatever has been nourishing, your parents and your other relationships, your country, your reading: anything that has nourished you, you must know.
But don’t think that, “My childhood was much better or much worse. My mother was bad.”
This is psychology also [which] teaches, “Your mother was bad that’s why you are like this”. All blame goes to the mother poor thing! She has given you birth, she has looked after you.
But they will blame your mother. Blame the psychologist than the mother, that they are putting funny ideas into your heads.
Come inside! There’s a lot of space, come in! Just come in.
So when you think of your past, you have to more deal with the whole thing as if you are there for some sort of a treasure, for your nourishment. Not just to blame yourself: “I did this, I took drugs.” It doesn’t matter! What is it? Now you solve your problems. “I did other the things.” Forget it!
When you were in the water, in the sea, alright you were drowned, but you are saved now, you are on the shore. What’s the use of thinking about what was happening then? It’s useless!
But the one who saved you from there, or the one, the fish that brought you out, or whatever it is – those experiences [which] are nourishing you, should think of that. Then you won’t have this diffidence you won’t have this kind of a confused mind, but clear cut: “Now I am different!” When a fruit comes out of a flower it doesn’t think of the flower. In the same way we should not worry about what has gone wrong with us in the past, but what has gone good with us we can think of it, because that nourishes us.
Now for future also: we have to think about future. But not to extend your projections, mental projections. But in meditation you have to see for yourself: “What is the future for Sahaj Yoga? What can I do? How can I purify myself completely? What have I to do about it?”
In the beginning to get up in the morning was a very difficult task for the Western people. To get up in the morning, have baths, do meditation, is too much! It’s a punishment sort of thing. But you’re not forced. I mean if you can’t get up it’s all right. But some started getting up, putting their effort. Previous night they would decide, “Now tomorrow whatever may happen I’ll get up.” Try! What’s the harm? Let’s see if it helps you. Also they see somebody getting up in the morning meditating, [who is] so different: then they start doing.
The other day I was in Calcutta and there was one gentleman: a very learned lawyer, and a chartered accountant. But he had started a factory which was confiscated by the government. And he won the case [but] lost a lot of money winning that case, and the compensation has not yet come. It’s so many years now, about ten years. So I told him divert your attention from there. Get into your own profession that you have. Now he’s a multimillionaire! He doesn’t bother about the little compensation. He said, “I better compensate the government now!” He’s all right.
So I told him, “How did you achieve it?” So he said to me that, “I saw another one who was much younger to me who was nothing, he was just an ordinary person, and he was very hot-tempered, ill-treating his wife, doing all kinds of things, and was never available at home for any difficulties….” Moreover outside also he would go and aggress others, and trouble others. After Sahaj Yoga he changed, completely. Not good at jobs and then he gave up frustrated. Then he couldn’t do well, anywhere, started a business, he got a loss and all that. And [hence] more frustration. Then he came to Sahaj Yoga. And he developed a personality, a security. He became very rich suddenly. He was surprised at himself and he is not attached. He said, “All these riches I have got Mother, I want to do [use] it for Sahaj Yoga.” He bought a plot of land, big plot of land and he wants to start a Sahaj school there. I was amazed at him. He said, “No, what is it, how much money do I need? It’s more than sufficient!” He started working it out that way. And then seeing him, this gentleman changed; the one who was the chartered accountant. And I saw his face: I was amazed. Not the same person. So much, just like a blossom. I said, “What happened?” “It’s nothing. I get up in the morning, do my meditation. Evening I do my meditation, that has changed me.” Such a small thing [and] life has changed. But if you have to go for an interview people will get up at four o’clock in the morning! Then they get up. But if you have to meditate they don’t: then it’s a punishment to them. Especially in England it’s very much worse. But now gradually they have understood the value of it: how it helps you, to do meditation in the morning, and in the night. It’s only five minutes in the morning and ten minutes in the evening [needed]. Not much.
There’s no discipline about it. We don’t want to force anything on you. No way of forcing will help. Because that has never helped. Also disciplining children and all that: I have found out a new method by which we can really discipline them better, which I am going to implement now on them. Let’s see how it works out.
So we should know the principle of Sahaj Yoga. And one of the principles of Sahaj Yoga is that we have to meditate if we have to grow.
Meditation means at that time we are in thoughtless awareness: that time, neither future nor past. So we open out ourselves to the Primal Force, to this All-pervading Power, to fill us up with inspiration, with beautiful ideas. Actually like the nourishment of the tree which is achieved by the sap of the tree. And to feel the love of God. To feel how we are instruments of that love and how the love can flow through us.
So in the morning I have told them to meditate [for] about five minutes or for say ten minutes. But you shouldn’t put the watch: “Now five minutes!” And a bell rings. “Oh, finished!” (Laughter) That’s not the [way]. You should enjoy. I have told some people five minutes [but] they go on sitting for one hour in joy. It’s an enjoyment. It’s the inner enjoyment
of the inner beauty of your Self, the inner glory of your Self. Watching yourself within is beautiful.
But some people start it as hypocrites doesn’t matter – still they achieve it. And some are very smart: they think they can cheat themselves, very well, with their intelligence. No use! What’s the use of cheating yourself with your intelligence? It’s of no advantage. So we have to think that this intelligence which doesn’t give us the strength to rise, to ascend, to our heights, is not the real intelligence. The super intelligence will just show us the achievement that we have to achieve. Will show us all that beautiful pure life that we have to achieve. That’s the work of a super intelligence. But for the dullards Sahaj Yoga is very difficult. They are busy with something here and something there. They can never rise.
They never make a point. And they can never understand what is important in life for a Sahaj Yogi.
So when I say ‘you meditate’ I do not mean that it’s a discipline for you, no, no way. But it’s a path, it’s a way out for you to get to your thoughtless awareness. Where you know yourself, means you know, not on your chakras, not the chakras of others, but you know that you are the Spirit, that you are the pure Spirit, and that you have been glorified. As if there’s a covenant with God before we were born as human beings, and now we are fulfilling that and going back to that which was put within us and we are achieving that; and that’s what is the most, important understanding about oneself.
Say Mother has said that, “You are beautiful, you are compassion, you are virtuous and that, you are, the Truth. You are the Spirit.” So why not we become that? Why not? So whenever your so-called intelligence starts telling you, “Oh it’s all right…” No escape from this is going to help you. I mean if you want to escape you are free to escape, no doubt. But why to escape this which is so important, which is so good for you?
And it’s a very easy way: Sahaj Yoga is the easiest. When I see what people have done to achieve their ascent, I get frightened really: you have to go to Himalayas, without any clothes you have to stay there, and exert yourself.
I have got a film of Adi Shankaracharya: poor fellow had to renounce the world, just to go to spread this message of Vedas; which is the same as the message of Christianity or message of Buddhism. Any message like that, in the real way, is the same. How much He had to suffer! That’s not the case. You don’t have to suffer. Every step you move, you get ten times the blessings, in every way, materially, physically, emotionally; but the greatest is the spiritual and in that, you become such a personality that, whatever may happen around, you enjoy yourself. It’s not a relative life any more, you just enjoy yourself, and others who see you also enjoy you. I want you all to get all the powers so-called that I have, and should be even more. That’s what I want you to have. That’s the desire of a Mother always.
May God bless you!
Now if there are any questions I would like to answer also. It’s not that if we are in Sahaj Yoga you can’t ask me questions. You should.
Cheshma anla ka? (Marathi: Did you bring my spectacles?) This is working out? (Mother is pointing to the bright light being used for filming but which has just gone off). I never used to wear spectacles but for this [light], four five years back my eyes started…
Yogini: We tried to bound it [the light] upwards so that it didn’t disturb you.
Shri Mataji: That’s much better: reflected glory! (Laughter) And you have to be humorous. You have to be humorous, you see.
Yogi: Shri Mataji, do you think Mr Gorbachev is likely to emerge as a big power in Russia again.
Shri Mataji: Do you know the good news or not? Yes, he wants to meet me. Let’s see. I hope I’ll put him right. Poor man. He should have met me before. He met all horrible type of people. All kinds of bad gurus and everything he met. That was his mistake. If he had met me I would have really warned him against them. And they did something to him. Though I worked out, you know how I worked it out, myself. But now the time has come for him to get to himself.
Yeltsin is a horrible fellow. He is more sort of an American man, who wants to enjoy parties and women and this and that. Americans are very much impressed by him; very much. The more stupid you are the better it is there. Like this Elisabeth [Taylor]’s honeymoon. I mean Australians will never do that. You are very much matured compared [to them]. Such stupid people I tell you. And America is full of them. I don’t know how to bring sense to their heads. First it’s a newly born country, and it has so much of abundance. So very bumptious. They are good at technology and all that they have done well, with their hands but maturity is missing and also compassion I think. Even if they help people it is not out of compassion but it is to show off. Now when they help they really make it look so horrible that people don’t want to have.
But now we have some very good Americans, who are Sahaj Yogis, I must say. Gregoire is sometimes exhausted but he thinks that some good things are coming out. Black people there are good but the best are Chinese. Now we have more Chinese than Americans in Sahaj Yoga. Indians abroad are useless: they are like a mango tree taken to England which doesn’t give mangoes and also [doesn’t give] an apple – useless! Can be used only for firewood I think! Absolutely useless people!
Same in America: for them dollar is their father, their god, everything. Most of them have gone from very downtrodden societies in India, so it’s all right. We have another population which is good in India, quite a lot, working out. It’s spreading like fire in the North India. And my Tour this time, in twenty-five days, I think I am going to about ten places. So it’s going to be quite a feat for me.
But it’s worked out. I’m surprised at Delhi. Compared to Delhi, you see Canberra is another capital. Delhi has worked wonders I must say; really. Of course in Delhi itself I get about ten to twelve thousand people. Noida twelve thousand people. I went to Ghaziabad: about fifteen thousand people. Just imagine! And that’s a capital of the city.
But in Delhi we don’t only have bureaucrats. Maybe here only we have bureaucrats. We have lots of business people and other people also. Bureaucrats and politicians: keep them out. They don’t want to enter into the Kingdom of God. They have their own kingdom of rules and regulations, and that’s how they’ll be living. So bureaucrats we should not worry too much [about]. But now some are coming because T.M. has harmed them. The bureaucrats are very much harmed by T.M. in India. So now they are coming to Sahaj Yoga, just to get out of it.
They were telling how they have suffered, and what they had to go through. You should get all the information about T.M. from David Spiro and publish it here, as a book or something – very important. Because it’s not what you are writing [but] what the newspapers have written. You can make a little booklet, write down all these things in that, and let people have it. [This] could be done. I was thinking of doing it myself but you know how I am on the run all the time. I have no time to sit down and settle down, and do something substantial.
Yogini: Shri Mataji, I received this [letter] from my son who’s at the school in Vashi.
Shri Mataji: That’s good. Beautiful. I must say the children of Australia have proved to be very good compared to others. It’s a very good idea.
[In] this Vashi School we are facing a little problem with the children because – I don’t know – they are very wild children, extremely wild. I don’t know how to manage them. They just all the time run out of the school and run onto the streets and go in to the shops. It’s very difficult. And, also, still the upper story is being built because the school is starting later on. And it’s difficult when something is [being] built and children are like this [and] they climb up. So we are thinking that, till the school is completed, we’ll keep them in Dharamshala only. And then we’ll bring them down. There also [there’s a] big difficulty because it’s a place with lots of cliffs and valleys. They just are…it’s too much of activity and too much running out and, I don’t know. Also they beat each other and all kinds of things are there. The worst part is that [if] one boy does it the others follow – nobody will stop them – which is very wrong.
In the beginning of one month or so the teachers wanted to give up absolutely. They said, “We cannot run the school. The children are absolutely wild, absolutely wild. They cannot be tamed.” And I told them not to in any way slap them or beat them. But I said, “All right you use a plastic ruler just to show them.” Nothing! Plastic ruler they just came and broke it! Compared to Indian children, I must say, it’s a big task. We have to get teachers from outside maybe, if they do not come round.
But I don’t know if they really respect teachers here also. This has come out of, this kind of a philosophy that, “Let the children express themselves and let them be free!” which is wrong, because why are there parents then? I always said, “They should hang from the trees!” What is the use of having parents if parents can’t do anything about it, can’t tell them anything?
Some were saying, “Mother we were also like that.” I said, “No, this generation is much worse I think. But even if you were like that, so what?” They said, “Then we changed with Sahaj Yoga,” But I said, “But how to run the school, now? We have to run the school at this age!” Absolutely no self-respect, no respect for anything! At least seventy percent children are like that. Even the girls are terrible. They don’t brush their teeth and they don’t want to take a bath, they’ll cry for anything, make such a fuss. It’s difficult.
I had a talk this time with them, brought lots of presents for them. They were nice to me and they were listening to me. But Gregoire said, “They are hypocritical Mother!” He’s very disappointed. He went and warned them that, “If you behave like this we’ll not have you back in the house!” So they said, “Where will you send us then?” They said, “We’ll send you to lunatic asylum!” (Laughing)
I mean the new generation that is coming, is going to be much worse than you, I tell you, in the West. Be careful! I have a feeling. All these theories come up but without experimenting they just employ them. It’s very dangerous to do all this. Because it’s a new theory you employ that theory. But first experiment and see for yourself how it works!
And, on the other hand, they want to criticise our school, compared to horrible schools in France! This boy Johannes was sent to a French school and he wrote to me that, “I can’t go to that school. Because boys are all doing all dirty things all the time. I can’t bear it.” And at a very young age, children below twelve years are taking to drugs, smoking. It is such a spoilt atmosphere.
Yogi: We see it in society in another very strange way, where prisoners in jail, they’re more concerned about their welfare than the people they have done damage to.
Shri Mataji: Prisoners in where?
Yogi: When they’re in jail there are lots of people in society, who are saying, “Oh we must look after them. We must do this we must do that.” But the people that they have robbed or killed or maimed – nothing.
Shri Mataji: It’s a Vatican idea, to support all the war criminals – ‘compassion’. The worst is France you know. Once it happened that we had to go by bus from the station and couldn’t get any taxi or something. Got into a bus, myself and Marie. First one gentleman walked in: he was mad, absolutely, and he sat into his chair and he started saying some things you see. I said, “What is he talking about? So she’s saying, “He’s decrying the war, what has gone wrong in the war,” “But so loudly?” I said, “But he’s a bhoot. Everybody will catch bhoots from him!” She said, “Mother it’s all right.” Then another lady walked in, same style. Then another gentleman. There were four or five by the time we reached our destination. And they were otherwise normal. They would take their tickets all right, pay for that. Otherwise all right. But all the time talking like this. I said, “They should be all arrested and put in some lunatic asylum!” So Marie said, “But you see the French are very compassionate.” I said, “Compassionate to whom?” Absolutely mad. Absolutely. I said, “They can hit anyone,” She said, “It’s all right, after all they are mad.” But why do you want to mix them up with others?” They said, “They are so many now, what to do? By living with the society they’ll improve.” None of this: it never happens. But in India we don’t have so many mad people. I mean we don’t have schisophrenia at all. I’ve not seen anybody having schisophrenia in India. Either they are mad or they’re sane, there’s nothing in between. But [with] this schisophrenia they work, they earn, they live like normal people and suddenly they become mad. You don’t know when they will become mad. Like an attack, comes to them. That we don’t have. But we have very few mad people, in India, very few. I mean the real mad. This schisophrenia I have not heard of. I don’t know from where it [comes]. It must be drinking, must be the perversions, maybe, or suppressions. It’s predicted that sixty-five percent of Americans will become schisophrenic, imagine! You dare not go there! (Laughing). This schisophrenia, I don’t know from where it comes.
Yogi: Shri Mataji is religious fanaticism the same thing as madness?
Shri Mataji: I think it must be that. Must be that. Confessions, and this religious fundamentalism. I think Christians are the worst because, at least Muslims you know they are fundamentalist, I mean you know they are. And Jews you know. But these Christians are very, you see sophisticated, fundamentalists. And
that’s what happens. This Vatican is already on its way out; I think so, absolutely. Because, there’s a book written, “In the Name of God”  – horrible. Have you read that book? It’s banned in India. I don’t know if it is banned [here]. “In the Name of God”.
Yogi: No, it’s here, it’s available here Mother.
Shri Mataji: It’s here? This gentleman now came to Sahaj Yoga after writing that book. And he’s a very nice Englishman. So it says that this first Pope (Jean Paul I) was murdered by this Pope (Jean Paul II). And nine million dollars were counterfeited and were distributed through the Vatican. What sort of a thing it is, as an organisation, I can’t understand. And after that thirteen people were murdered just to hide the secret.
And now that every day I am in Italy, every week there is some sort of an exposure of this Vatican. Horrible they are! Like this [Roberto] Calvi was murdered: they said he hanged himself, on a bridge. No, Calvi, he says, was murdered because he knew the secret about the death of this pope. But the man who murdered is a Mafia man; and he has confessed that, “Though I’m with Mafia the Vatican asked for my services and they have
paid, for this murder,” Then they asked Mr [Douglas] Hurd  about this: “Why didn’t you do something about it at that time when this fellow was hanged here?” He said, “Because we don’t want our judges to be murdered, our lawyers to be murdered.” Judges were murdered, in Italy! What a dangerous place it is. So I am there, now. (Laughter)
Also this Anglican Church and all nonsense; absolute nonsense. And they know they are not truthful, that’s why they are after us. They know it, they are sure. They’re aware of it. Such falsehood! But in all religions it has happened like that, no doubt, but maximum in Christian religion. Because it’s such a sophisticated [thing] outward, so inside what’s happening you don’t know – it’s like the amoebic cyst which grows inside and comes out in thousands, it’s like that: such hypocrisy! And the people who believe in them are very innocent good people; very good people. And they are misled. That may be the reason I was born in a Christian family, to find out all the nonsense. In those things the Christians are [apparently] something very, chosen ones, wonderful people, very compassionate. They have no ideas as what, these priests are up to.
Also this lady, the one who got the Peace Prise, Mother Theresa: such a hot-tempered woman I tell you. I don’t know how you can give her a Peace Prise! She collected all the money from the Bengalis and got hold of some sort of barracks. Brings all these people who are dying, puts them there, converts them. That’s what her job is. She cannot cure anybody, she cannot give any relief to anyone, no medicines, nothing – just to convert. And she gets a Peace Prise! I met her once when she was going to Calcutta with me. And she brought some sort of an odd looking thing with her. She came in the plane – that time she was not such a well-known figure I think – and she said, “I want to sit in front,” They said, “No, this is for these people, they are people who are sick and they are supposed to sit here, they have reserved it, you can’t sit here.” “No, I want to sit here only, because I have this odd thing.” They said, “You give it to us and we’ll look after it.” “No!” And there’s a small little space like this, where you enter inside the aircraft. She was jumping from here to there – and she’s very thin you know. Jumping from here to there, there to there, there to there. For half an hour she was jumping with temper. I said, “Baba what is this?” “No. I am Mother Theresa!” This, that. Then they literally put her down when the plane started. And this lady should get the Prise for Peace! Even in Ethiopia, she’s just converting people – Ethiopia – when they are dying . Because once you convert [they believe] you will go to God, immediately. Only you have to have the brand! (Laughter) This ordination and ordination. What do you call it? Ordation or ordination?
Yogi: Ordination, Mother.
Shri Mataji: Ordination. Women are stupid to fight for it. They must be also orators I am sure too, you see!
They must also have a platform to speak, the ladies must be thinking: “Why only the men?”
Hindus are equally, quite misled by their nonsense too but only advantage in Hindu religion is that it’s a scripture, and it’s not organised: there’s no Pope or anyone like that there, or Archbishop of Canterbury they don’t have. The way they mix up politics with religion. And we don’t know here that this Christian Democratic Party has been ruling Italy for the last forty years! There are seven other parties, which are in majority but they are fighting with each other. And these people know how to make them fight. So these are in majority, though in minority. It’s a very funny type of a government which is in a doldrums all the time because they are not in majority: they have only got thirty-two percent of votes. And also it’s very much in France this party is. French are really Catholics of the worst type. Because there is one advantage in Catholicism: that you can drink as much as you like, and French, for them their bible is, spiritual food is, just drinking.
Antonio went to see the judge when they were doing something about this case. A nice judge because, for that little boy he gave a verdict of nine pages. In that he has mentioned me as respectable and Sahaj Yoga as very good people and all sorts of things. And when he went to see him he offered him some, I think must have been some wine or whatever it is. He said, “We don’t drink.” He was surprised that a Frenchman doesn’t drink. But in Australia they [now] think drinking is bad, isn’t it? There’s a new sort of a trend coming up, that they respect people who do not drink – it’s a good idea.
Yogi: It must be so, Mother, because the breweries are spending a lot more money now to advertise, that means people are not drinking so much.
Yogi: The doctor was telling me the other day, Shri Mataji, “I’ve seen more and more people who don’t drink.”
Shri Mataji: Really? Also it’s expensive, with recession you know! (Laughter) Recession is a blessing in a way.
Yogi: I think the same thing’s happening with smoking to Australians. It’s lessening.
Shri Mataji: Smoking also?
Yogi: I think so.
Shri Mataji: That’s the real blessing, I tell you. Vishuddhi would be all right if smoking goes out.
But too much money has ruined them, so it’s better to have some recession.
By the way I was thinking about the house for you. I was reading newspapers, and I found that the houses, outside, in farmlands, are much cheaper. So you should get hold of some big house which is dilapidated, instead of buying this one, because it’s on the street you see, [so] if you start singing tomorrow, you’ll get police. (Laughter) Best thing is to find out a place which is a little far away and also some sort of a farmland, so we could pitch some tents there. And also so that they will not disturb you. There should be some compound around you. Somebody told me that somebody has suggested that they should buy this house.
Yogi: That was Brisbane Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: In Brisbane, not here? No, this is all right but it won’t work out Sahaj Yoga. For Sahaj Yoga you have to go a little outside. Just find out. You might get.
They have a very small house in Brisbane. It may be a little more convenient for people who are working or something, but for meditation I think you have to be a little away from the city. That’s very important. In Sahaj Yoga we see to all conveniences you see: like, the puja should be on a Sunday. So many things are there, so many conveniences. But, formerly you had to go on the Himalayas at least, minimum, for your ascent. So it’s very convenient, it’s very comfortable. But, still, I would suggest that a house should be a little away from the madding crowd, very important. After all you all have cars so what does it matter? Five miles here and five miles there. Best thing would be to go for such a house. And if it is dilapidated [it’s] better because then you can renovate it yourself and you can enjoy it, that renovation.
Why are you crying? For daddy? Oh my God! The security of daddy!
For Sarah [Jefferies] I wanted to tell you something that I didn’t know that she is such an artist and she plays cello. I didn’t know. But you see her husband comes from an aristocratic family and he has lots of lands and things; and he’s doing some business in transports, he’s doing very well. Now for him to come here would be like a beggar, to stay here. He can come just to visit you people. But she can learn Indian music there. If she’s done cello, she can do very well also, because it’s the same style of sitar or something. She might be able to do it very easily. They should have written it down [on the marriage application] that she is like this, a cello player and all that: then Austria is the best place.
Several Yogis: It was on the marriage form but it was abbreviated.
Shri Mataji: Are you sure? You see there were this time five hundred marriage forms. And, it’s a mistake then. But doesn’t matter, it’s for the good, because cello is over now. If she becomes a good sitar player she’ll be known all over the world. Western music you have to play in a group and you don’t have that much of creativity in that, you cannot create. It’s all written down, you have to follow it up and all that. But Indian music is not like that. And you have to be in a part of the group: I mean individually you have no achievements as such, much. But in Indian music you can be of a great renown. So she has a good chance, she can pick up anything. I think she can learn violin there. Indian violin is very good. Or she could learn sitar, sarod, anything. Once you know a string instrument you can do that, better. And nowadays it’s very much appreciated and internationally it’s very much appreciated. And it’s not a team work you have to play on. You have to play alone, single. That’s something great. And they’ll appreciate it coming from a western girl: very much in India it’s regarded. Even our government gives a scholarship for that.
Beeath is the one who got.
Yogi: And Simon from England.
Shri Mataji: Simon. No actually Simon is from Italy but he stayed in, married in, England. He too got scholarship.
But one has to be a good Sahaj Yogi otherwise the one who gets you these, all these things is Debu Chaudhary. And he wouldn’t give it to somebody who is not a good Sahaj Yogi and just plays something, he wouldn’t give.
So he told me, asked me, “Mother, what do you think about the Sahaj Yoga part?”
And do you know this Debu Chaudhary had this problem, of the ‘artist’s thumb’ as they call it. He couldn’t play for so many days, I think so many years, because he used to get cramps on his thumbs. So I cured him. He got completely all right. And then he started again, playing it. And then he became Dean of the Faculty of Arts in Delhi. Then he started his performances all over, everything. He played before me and he has made some ragas for me and all. Now he has got a very high title [of] ‘Padma Bhushan’ in Delhi. But he is very much indebted to Sahaj Yoga, very much indebted. He thinks only it is Sahaj Yoga which has given him this steadiness. And he thinks only that Sahaj Yoga has given him these blessings, and that’s how he has achieved it.
In Sahaj Yoga one should not worry: everything works out. Whatever is an obstruction really is for our progress.
This case in France has helped us so much now. Everything for our progress. If there’s some little obstruction it is for us to jump out of it, always. So one should never worry about anything, never worry. It’s all worked out.
This time there was a miracle when you came to India: we had all these silver things and all the presents and everything put in a truck. And they told me that, “We have filled the truck and we are going to leave.” I said, “No tonight you are not to leave. Somehow or other you keep back. [Go] tomorrow morning,” They couldn’t understand. I said, “No, nothing doing,” And that night all the trucks were plundered on the way by dacoits. So, next morning they started. And they came very close to Ganapatipule to Jakadevi, which is a place. There, most of the time, there are some accidents. Must be some sort of a bhoot there, I don’t know what. So this truck lost its control and the wheel started coming out and big problem. And it was on a slope so it started moving backwards, so these boys jumped out, and also the driver jumped out thinking: “Now what will happen?” All the things inside there. It started moving and suddenly turned at right angles, and then [again] at right angles, and stopped near a platform, just like this a big platform, made of stone by nature itself. It just stopped there. They thought it’s now finished: “Where is it going like this, moving by itself?” Then a bus came that side. If this had not happened the bus would have collided. I have seen myself it being stopped. And no one can believe how it must have happened. Then they used the platform for taking out things. Then there was a bus in which people went and got another truck. And nothing was destroyed, nothing. I mean, not a single bit.
So that’s what it is. Sahaj Yoga is something one has to experience and then believe in it. Everything works out.
So now I’ll take your leave.
May God bless you!
 Mother is referring to the book “In God’s Name” by David Yallop
 A British politician serving in Margaret Thatcher’s government of the 1980s.
 Reference to the famines of Ethiopia in 1980s.