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Picnic with Yogis at Black Mountain Peninsula. Canberra (Australia), 13 February 1992.
Shri Mataji: Sometime I have to sit down and write.
Yogi: Shri Mataji children who are born realized, still they pick on these bad behaviors, do they get it from their parents or their society?
Shri Mataji: This is Kali Yuga. Anything is possible. I met some born realized people who are now in Sahaja Yoga, they were taking drugs. They were drinking. This is Kali Yuga. They forget what they are. And very egoistical. Because they know they are something better. In Vashi children are all born realized. In My Presence they are absolutely quiet. In My Presence. I don’t know what happens, just they are very different. But, the teachers are having a bad time.
I think they’ll be all right by the time they are twelve years old. They are very attached, no doubt, very attached. The kind of thing that has happening now in the world, it’s only when there is Kali Yuga. I mean any sort of nonsense. In relationships, in, addictions, all kinds of immorality. Shameless, absolutely. And to break the moods of the mind down. You regard it as a big venture.
Yogi: Will it all change one day, Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: Of course I mean, if we have lots of Sahaja Yogis, it will happen. But you must also, all of you, mature. So that others when they see you they, are impressed. I told you now in the West, so much of materialism that has covered the eyes up. So materialistic. Russians are very good. They’re not at all materialistic. Of course we have twenty percent people like this, we can call them the valets and the, taxi drivers, they ask for Marlborough cigarettes [INAUDIBLE]. Then ask Me also. I said: ‘I don’t smoke’. They said: ‘From where do You come. I said: ‘Oh I come from London. ‘Don’t smoke?’
But I feel in Australia, people respect you, if you don’t drink. I have a feeling. At least in the plane I saw they were very respectful. But not, in France, or Spain, also Italy, Germany, nobody thinks it’s a, very good thing, that we don’t drink. We have to be normal people, that’s what is the abnormality. It’s very absurd life. Complete abandon. Away from Divine Laws. Also they don’t see that they are doing wrong. They don’t see. They say it’s a venture something you are doing. Taking drugs is a venture. Why not? Once I was going on a autobahn in Los Angeles and afterwards Gregoire told Me: ‘Mother please close the window panes and bend Your Head.’ I said: ‘Why, what’s the matter?’ He said: ‘On this road, there were eleven people were killed.’ ‘In one shot?’ ‘No, no, different times’. I said: ‘Why?’ ‘For the sake if it, this was just, heck, heck of it.’ They have guns, so they see somebody, they shoot. This is ghor kali yuga. Otherwise you want to kill a bird [INAUDIBLE] It’s too much, to be killing so many people. Broad daylight. It’s only kali yuga. For no rhyme and reason. Just to kill. The army are going, twelve-year boys are carrying revolvers, and killing, for the drugs. Drugs business is too much there.
Yogi: They are wondering if you might put Your Feet in the lake, Shri Mother, before You go.
Shri Mataji: Look at these birds all of them have come here and meditating. All of them are here. They must be all preparing in the north now for My Tour. It’s such an intensive one. Within twenty-five days I’ll be visiting about twelve places. I told them to cancel at least one of them. And some of them can be only approached by plane.
Yogi: The Lord Mayor of Newcastle went to many arrangements to bring You to the city. The camp where we’re having the puja , there’s a room, a hut, that’s scouts’ sacred land, only the head scout is allowed to use this room, and they refused us permission to have You in this room, so we mentioned to the caretaker of the camp that the Lord Mayor had met You last year.
Shri Mataji: I remember. Very nice man. He sat down for realization. He got it also.
Yogi: He used to be a scoutmaster, the Lord Mayor, so I rang him and asked: ‘Could you please speak to the scout people and make arrangements for Shri Mataji to use this room’. So he said: ‘Leave it to me.’ And a few days later he rang to say everything is cleared now and Shri Mataji can come and use the room, to Her pleasure.
Shri Mataji: What a thing eh?.
Yogi: He said he’ll also try and come to the program as well.
Shri Mataji: They have to think of their benevolence also. What’s the use of sticking to this, old style business. Better is. They have started thinking about it. Like Gorbachev wants to meet Me and so something good. But he was very receptive. Very respectful.
So many now they are out of Church, also. Here mostly people are Protestants not, Catholics.
Yogi: Half and half.
Shri Mataji: Half? But how many are church-goers?
Yogis: Thirty-five percent, regular churchgoers, fifty percent believer, and fifty percent don’t know.
Shri Mataji: Only on Christmas Day.
Yogi: And Easter.
Shri Mataji: I think that is now everywhere.
Yogi: I think people from the Protestant religion find it easier to come to Sahaja Yoga because that in itself was a movement against too much ritual within the churches, and many of the protestant religions do go much more into just yourself relating directly to the Word of God, so they’re more willing to dispense with ritual and believe in their own relationship with the Divine.
Shri Mataji: Yes. Moreover you see Martin Luther Himself was a realized soul. And he started this. But only problem is He didn’t give realization to anyone. But then it deviates you see. And you have so many sects in Protestant, Seventh Day, Pentecost.
Yogi: Well if I understand it Mother before You it wasn’t really possible for people to give realization generally, it was only when You opened the Sahastrara that it became possible for us as a culture, for it to spread so widely. Before it was only by individual strong effort and it couldn’t be passed on easily. It was Your Coming that made the difference. Is that right?
Shri Mataji: You see when if you break from one framework into another, unless and until you are standing on the truth, it deviates. In England it has gone too far now. I mean to such an extent that they want to prove that Christ was not Divine. He was a human being. And one fellow, from Durham, he actually said it many-a-times, and then, I mean, sort of, he proclaimed it. Instead of punishing him, the Archbishop of Canterbury congratulated him, and he was honored in a church. And the top of that, see the electricity they say was, this lightning was like electricity moving around the church, and then it hit and the whole top of that church was burnt completely. Only three feet were left down below. So they said: ‘See, God’s Grace. Because we honored him these three feet were left.’
Yogi: Was it Durham Cathedral that you are speaking about?
Shri Mataji: Yes. Durham Bishop. I know him, otherwise. Because I went to Durham. So I had to launch a ship there. Absolutely a superficial [INAUDIBLE] person. And, when we were launching the ship, they had put a swastika, because, you see because I am a Hindu or something like that, and, in the opposite direction. So I told them this is not correct, you have to bring the other way around. Even the Priest got such a fright: ‘Really? I hope it won’t harm the ship or…? Is it…’No. No it’s all right.’ I mean they have no knowledge, nothing. Studying those theosophical theories and in those colleges. They become so conditioned, so conditioned. They haven’t got those mature. But they have a set pattern of things. And the idea is not to establish dharma, not to establish morality, not to establish any higher visions for, no. It’s just, you see, read from bible. This is what He said, and this is… That doesn’t help much.
Yogis: It was very nice to hear you say yesterday that Canberra is all right now. You look much better this year than last year, which was the first time that I came to You.
Shri Mataji: I didn’t follow. [Yogi answers.] See I didn’t know, all this is needed so much. In the beginning I didn’t even allow them to put any posters. No advertisement. Nothing in the beginning, for four years. Because first I thought we must have a good foundation. People who really can digest it. We should have such people. But in London now I think, Christianity is fading because of these people. People are so indifferent. Nobody goes to the church. Nobody. We had one church there that [INAUDIBLE] Even on a Sunday they just open the doors. Only the air passes from [INAUDIBLE] not once in four years. So how are they to maintain that church? They are failing. Sahaja Yogis wanted to buy one church. They said: ‘Mother, it’s very cheap we can buy one church and it’s a good idea.’ I don’t know if they have bought.
Yogi: Do you think this is a good idea or a bad thing because would it institutionalize things?
Shri Mataji: Church is good because people are innocent who go there. But Catholic churches have got, those graveyards. Even Protestant churches have got graveyards. That’s one thing I don’t like. You see Christ, they didn’t give Him much time, to really elaborately tell how this Christian life is going to work out, the culture of Christianity, how we are going to lead a family life. Not institutions. Hardly any time for it. Otherwise He would have told that, ‘Don’t put dead bodies in the Church.’ But they gave Him only three years. In three years what can you do? Moreover four years I was struggling with these seven English hippies, to give them realization. But still Christ has done so much. Of course He didn’t bother to give realization to anyone, otherwise He would have been also, without any. He did three years.
I don’t think He ever talked of conversions, like this. All sorts of things. It’s Paul. Today’s Christianity is Pauline, not Christ. He organized, he put this. First of all organizing Christianity itself was a wrong idea. At least you could all see that it’s wrong. They have done no justice to Christ. This is at least you could see, but in India they don’t even see that. Because it is in the tradition that you must ascend, must respect a saint, you must have a Guru, that you have to become Self-realized, is all there. That’s the only reason they understand. But they don’t see what’s wrong in their own style of Hinduism that they have. They never see. Even after coming to Sahaja Yoga, they’ll go to the temple and some priest will put kumkum there. And they’ll come back: ‘Mother my Agya is caught up.’ Who asked you to go to the temple? All right, you went to the temple, at least why did you allow them to put this?’ So your growth is much faster than theirs, no doubt. Not all, but on the whole I’ve seen. Some of them are excellent Sahaja Yogis. No doubt.
Yogi: Do you know the work of Jean Houston? She says Australia, is a very powerful place. I believe You also said it is Ganesha’s land of innocence. She says because now in Australia because of the Aboriginal tradition, we have high technology and they have very high spirituality and she believes that Australia is the place from which the spiritual rebirth will occur, the union of technology and spirituality.
Shri Mataji: Who said that?
Yogi: Jean Houston
Shri Mataji: But primitiveness is not spirituality. I wonder if these people, aboriginals, are spiritual?
Yogi: Well she says yes and she speaks about some Buddhist priests who’ve lived with them and who say that their spirituality is more advanced than anything in Buddhism.
Shri Mataji: Really?
Yogi: Is it, do You feel this is true about aboriginal spirituality?
Shri Mataji: I think they can achieve spirituality faster. Because you see what has happened, that you have to come to the center. So you have come through the left, you have moved on and you’ve gone to the right bit too much, so difficult for you to come back. But they are moving from left. So it is easy for them to jump on it. So the concept of spirituality, you see the quantum of spirituality, is only possible after Self-realization. Because they are primitives they are afraid of God, they believe in God, that there is something beyond. But that’s more fright, that’s more blindness. Unless and until you are realized, spirituality has no meaning. Hopeless. They drink a lot don’t they, also? They drink and indulge into all kinds of things. Whatever I’ve read about them is this. But for people who are too advanced, they think the other side is good.
They believe also in spirits, spiritualism, quite a lot. So it is not in believing in God or in non-believing God, but in the center. Of course Australia is a very God-blessed place, no doubt about it. Is Ganesha’s place firstly, and described in our shastras in India that one saint who fell from his heights, so he was cursed and this, what you call this Southern Cross, and God made him into a Southern Cross and threw him. And He said you’ll be hanging round like that, upside down. It’s called as Trishanku and some part of the land will go with you there, which will be your own place. Then he said also you must give me some blessings. He said: ‘I will bless that land’. It was described in the shastras that Trishanku comes here and there’s a land and this and that.
Australians are that way very spiritually good I should say, whatever may be the reason, because of Nature or whatever. But certain things are missing in them. One is the social. How they relate to each other. That’s rather a missing point. So this is a problem. So in collective they are not so good. Individually they are good. Individuals are very good. But into collective something goes wrong with them. Also, if you have a leader, so-called, leadership is so-called, sometimes they become slaves to the leaders. I mean so much things they did, these leaders, horrible things. None of them reported it. Nobody told me anything. I was shocked. That these leaders are trying to dominate us, they are doing these things, they are making money. Nothing. So frightened. Like a jailer and a prisoner’s attitude. This is nowhere I find like that.
Yogi: Are you talking about Sahaja Yogis in Australia?
Shri Mataji: It happened. Horrible things happened.
Yogi: In the past.
Shri Mataji: In the past. Even now collective, take it is like Melbourne, is no good. We have to do a lot there. But leaders are, that’s a myth. You have to tell me. Of course, you are free to tell Me. Nobody can stop you from telling Me. Unless and until I discovered it nobody told Me. So docile. I was shocked. You are free people. Nobody has to govern you. Very much frightened.
Yogi: Well I only know Canberra and certainly there is no one domineering or exploiting us in Canberra that’s for sure. And I’ll tell you next year if it’s changed.
Shri Mataji: After all I’m Your Mother, and if they tell, ‘Mother said so’ you can always ask Me. And you must know My Style. I would never say certain things. There’s nothing like priesthood, nothing like hierarchy in Sahaja Yoga. I was surprised even very intelligent people, were like that. Because you were so frightened that’s why they become like that. At least you can write to Me. They were collecting money, without asking Me, for some sort of a purpose I don’t know what. I never knew for years. That’s not good. I didn’t receive and when they asked Me questions I was surprised. They said: ‘We sent so much money to You’. I said: ‘When?’ There’s nothing hidden in Sahaja Yoga. Nothing. Everything is an open book. All accounts, everything. Open book. Of course if you ask Me I don’t know because I don’t keep any accounts, I don’t keep any money. But it’s all there. It’s checked and audited, and if your leader is not doing that you should find out and let Me know because that’s also your duty.
Yogi: It’s surprising that people wouldn’t tell You because You are so approachable.
Shri Mataji: Just imagine.
Yogi: I suppose it’s a question of balance between You as a Person and You as the Divine and now we sit here and we chat with You, You have your lunch and we talk about anything.
Shri Mataji: It’s not justice to Me also.
Yogi: At other times it’s in a different mode, we must balance it.
Shri Mataji: So many times I’ve said that leadership has no meaning. It doesn’t go into their heads. See we have to establish a new society, of complete freedom within you, freedom from drugs, freedom from any bad habits. A pure life. Nobody can intimidate you. Every time I had to find it.
Yogi: Mother there were quite a few people from Melbourne who had written letters to give to Stephen to give to You. I was wondering whether they had come through?
Shri Mataji: No if you think, whatever your problems are you can solve well and good otherwise you must write to Me.
Yogis: We did. We gave so many letters. We gave You some in Madras. There were three quarters of the collective had signed and written letters to You about problems we have in Melbourne and we gave them to Stephen to hand over to You.
Shri Mataji: That’s why I am here now.
Yogi: Thank you Mother.
Shri Mataji: It’s rather complicated. I’ll have to play some tricks with them.
Yogi: Mother, I’d like to ask you about the Buddhists, because the Buddhists who are so well-versed in Buddhism, they don’t recognize God and they say well they practise the middle path. I know very little about Buddhism or anything, but I find it’s very hard to talk to them.
Shri Mataji: I’ll tell you what, at the time when Buddha came in, in India, it was full of ritualism, absolutely. And they would just put a stone there, put some, kum-kum on that, start worshipping. It had become a complete anathema as far as religion was concerned. So it started with Buddha, and also Mahavira, that they saw, that these people are making money out of everyone, supposed to be priests. They are very cruel, killing people, also, human sacrifices. All kinds of things they were doing, the opposite. So Buddha wanted people first to get their realization. And an analogy I’ve given like this. First they started, going through their sympathetic, they saw those deities. When they saw those deities, they started worshipping those deities. Like, we have to get to the honey, but honey is in the flower. So we start worshipping the flower. Don’t get to the honey by that.
So Buddha thought, Buddha, Mahavira, Mohammed, Nanaka, all these thought that better not to talk about God just now. Let us talk about Self-realization. That you have to know your Self. That’s why, these people started talking about abstract. Abstract. This all–pervading power around us. Because, they wanted to put the attention of the people, now from flower, to the honey. But even that became a talk only. They could not reach the honey. They only also talked about honey. But they didn’t reach the honey. Now in Sahaja Yoga, what happens that you become the bees. You can. But to convince Buddhists people if you say that, there two things that they would not appreciate. One about talk about God, you have to tell them, you don’t have to believe in God or anything. Take your realization. That He has talked, Self He as has talked a lot, Buddha. So once you talk about Self, they get their self-realization, they’ll have vibrations and they can ask questions, and clarify.
Yogi: Because a lot of them start to analyze and start to be curious.
Shri Mataji: That you can never say. You say you get your Self-realization. Enlightenment. Buddha has said this. Buddham sharanam gacchami – First you become Self-realized. Then he said Dharmam sharanam gacchami. Means let the Dharma be enlightened within me. And then Sangam sharanam gacchami that is, the collectivity. These three things He has taught. But, as all are, like Muslims are not good Islam, Buddhists are not good Buddhism. They did all kinds of things you see, that were wrong. And where is now Buddhism, in which country? If you go to Japan, horrible people Japanese. Worst, worst possible.
Yogi: And its very hard to tell the Chinese, about ancestors, stop praying to ancestors because the Chinese are very deep-rooted in that belief, and where I am at the moment, in fact the area called Cabramatta, there’s lots of Asian people but it’s very hard to talk to them because…
Shri Mataji: Of course. Tell them get your Self-realization then you’ll talk. No use talking. Better get them to Self-realization. Chinese are very deep people and you’ll be surprised that in New York, we have more Chinese than Americans, in Sahaja Yoga. And in the West Coast we have more Iranians than Americans. Then another conflict could be that, they see Buddha’s life and, He said you should have penance you should go through sufferings, while in Sahaja Yoga this should not be done. Because you’ve already done it in your last lives. You should say now this is the time, now you’ve to come up. You’ve done everything. Just you have to walk in.
And the idea of Bodhisattva. In every religion they have talked of the future. Even Islam. Resurrection time, then they have talked of Bodhisattva. Bodhisattva is the future Buddha, is called as Maitreya, Trigunatmika and Bodhisattva is the one when you are realized you have found the truth, you have to give it to the society, you have to give it to the public, you have to go all out to give it. That’s Sahaja Yoga. So Buddhism at that stage, was achieving your Self, alone. Or your little group. Now today it is Buddhism.
Yogi: Because the Buddhists, a lot of them believed in the Goddess of Mercy.
Shri Mataji: What?
Yogi: Goddess of Mercy, Quan Yin.
Shri Mataji: Quan Yin, they believe? She looks like Me very much.
Yogi: I try to talk to them like that and some of them, because of the barrier of races and nationality: ‘Oh, no, no, no look at this picture, it’s not’ and this and that. It’s so hard to convince them. My real desire, I like to talk to these people, especially in my area. There are lots of them.
Shri Mataji: You should say now there is no Quan Yin. And when She lived, nobody recognized Her. Her own father wanted to throw Her away and a tiger came and saved Her. And She actually appeared on the scene when She was about I think ninety years. Something like that. Very old. So, nothing much was done. But they could recognize that She was a Goddess. Now She is no more. It’s Me here. So whatever is gone, what’s the use of talking about that? That’s another human nature, you see. To talk about the person who has gone. There’s no Christ now, there’s no Rama, there’s no Krishna. I’m here. So they won’t come to Me. Rama, ‘We worship Rama,’ because He’s in their pocket. Do what you like. If they want to have their realization they should get it. Whatever their forefathers have done and their forefathers have done, they are doing the same. What did they achieve? For China I have great hopes. Your Prime Minister, somehow or other, the one who is Prime Minister now, young fellow, he took to Me very much when I was in China, all the time asking Me about spirituality. I showed complete ignorance at that time. So I am sure it will work out.
Yogi: How about Singapore Lee Kuan Yu, the Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yu? How is he?
Shri Mataji: Very nice man. Excellent. [HINDI] Very nice man. Very very nice person. Chinese are beautiful people. Very beautiful. I met him because I went with My husband, and the Chinese somehow or other had the respect for Me quite a lot, always. And in a dinner or anything, he would always sit next to Me. All the time he was talking about the Indians being further in spirituality. They are the sole source of spirituality. Even in Russia they have so many sayings about India, that the wisdom will come from India. There was a Chinese, I don’t know how he did that, thousands of books he carried from India. [INAUDIBLE] And there’s a very big, huge monument in his name, I don’t know how many feet high, and on both the sides are just those books piled up. I don’t know how he carried. So that, they had great understanding. Once upon a time India was very much spiritually aware. Because of the climate, because you can live in a jungle, you can manage anywhere, so people didn’t have to bother about. You see like in London if you have to go out you have to take at least fifteen to twenty minutes to get ready to face the Nature. That’s where the Nature is so good in India that they didn’t have to bother so much so they went inside.
Yogi: But what about places like Singapore with so much of high-rise buildings, most of the population is on top of one another, they are not touching the earth at all. There’s no land, not much space there.
Shri Mataji: But even in Singapore there are people. Chinese specially. Very close to them is Malaysia, and we have at least thirty-five Chinese in Malaysia doing Sahaja Yoga. Singapore is occupied by people who are very materialistic. We have had people there. We tried in Singapore also, Sahaja Yoga. Didn’t work out.
Yogi: When do you think we’ll work it out in Singapore?
Shri Mataji: Can’t say. Even Indians when they go to Singapore they become extremely materialistic. It’s already working out in Hong Kong, so let’s hope. Somebody should be really in China. Somebody should go to Singapore and try to work it out. Like Hong Kong. Alex is doing good work there. Isn’t it?
Yogi: Shri Mataji, this weekend it’s the ACT elections on Saturday and we have a particularly hair-brained bunch of politicians here and I was wondering if there’s anything that You might envisage for the future in the ACT. There’s about three hundred thousand people here and I think that one of the problems, as it’s the Capital of Australia, one of the problems echoing out from here, seems to be because they have a great bureaucratic mentality and they don’t seem to be able to see the wider picture and it seems to have an effect with Federal Politicians as well.
Shri Mataji: So what’s the mentality you said?
Yogi: It’s a very small-minded mentality, particularly with the politicians locally. About three years ago they introduced a self-government for the Capital Territory, which is Canberra, and because they weren’t content to have a local council type of government, which is much more appropriate, because it’s a very small place, but they chose to have a big parliament, a Legislative Assembly they call it, and now we are up for our first new elections since then, and…
Shri Mataji: For this Canberra?
Yogi: …for this area, a lot of very amateurish, silly people got into power last time and I think we’re all very concerned in Canberra that we’re going to have the same again.
Shri Mataji: Only such people are acceptable to politics. If somebody mature goes there he’ll be thrown out. Politics is everywhere is in a doldrums. It’s not only here. They have to evolve still. I think these politicians and, I should say to some extent bureaucrats also, it takes some time to evolve. You shouldn’t worry about them too much just now. They’ll have some nice shocks. They deserve it.
Yogi: The people are getting the shocks too when they get into power.
Shri Mataji: I know. But don’t pay any attention, just give them bandhans. All stupid people. The worst part is they make stupid laws, absolutely stupid. We have in India quite a lot of them. I wish we could export them somewhere else.
Yogi: Maybe the North Pole.
Shri Mataji: [HINDI] [INAUDIBLE] in Australia. In India they are the worst type, politicians. You don’t know today they are in one party, is tomorrow they are in another party. They are sold out. They are all purchased. At least I hope that’s not the situation here.
Yogi: I think there’s a certain amount of corruption at every level.
Shri Mataji: Very little. But nobody can beat India.
Yogi: The best person, the most honest person, in the federal government was made treasurer, which was a totally untenable position, and now he’s nowhere because he was, it was admitted publicly that he was too much of a gentleman for that position and he’s gone. He’s been given some very small portfolio and he would have made a very good leader.
Shri Mataji: That’s what I told you. There’s no place for such people there just now. Our Rajesh Shah I told him that: ‘You go and attend one of the meetings of these politicians’. His father is a politician. Next time I met him, he just prostrated himself. ‘Mother tell me anything. I can jump into sea. But don’t tell me to go to meetings of these politicians. I just went mad with them.’ I said: ‘What happened?’ He said they started arguing on some point. And they said now, they’re such fanatic people, that Rajesh tried to pacify them and tell them: ‘It’s not so bad.’ They said: ‘Tomorrow, you don’t know what will happen to you. This will happen, that will happen.’ He said: ‘No it will not happen. I know this, it’s not that bad’. So fanatic. Hatred for each other. And then money comes in so they join the other party. No principles, nothing. Even America has no principles of any kind. They’ll support Argentina. I mean they do anything. Where there has to be some rigidity in character, that’s why it’s lacking.
Yogi: Australia is sometimes called ‘Little America’
Shri Mataji: Is it? Very much under their influence is it?
Yogi: It used to be the British and now it’s the Americans.
Shri Mataji: British are not corrupt so much. But the problem is, in India if you want to get something done, you can pay some money and get it done. But in England nothing. They won’t take bribe and they won’t do the work. Finished. So lethargic. What a red tape, they have in England, terrible. You have to give up so many things. Nothing works.
Yogi: Margaret Thatcher is gone, though. That’s got to be good for England.
Shri Mataji: But Mr Major. I don’t know, poor thing. She’s done so much harm. They are with bankruptcy. What can he do, alone? Such a harm she’s done to the population. She’s done all kinds of things. She’s a bounder I think. Bought lot of these conventional weapons, and wasted all that money. I heard they are going to use it for some film making, war film making. So what’s the use? Such a damage. That’s the trouble with British they do not have their self-confidence. She tried to follow this Mr Reagan. Hopeless fellow. He was good at dropping bricks. Absolutely useless. And she was so friendly with him, and the worst thing she’s done is to take his economic policies. Like banking. So available for you, loan for your house available, loan for that available, everything available. And within one year’s time everybody’s lost their houses, with that kind of an interest rate. That’s all right in America, because a very rich country. Still they are also suffering now, very much. Then another thing she started secretly, supposed to be conservative, that you can take out any amount of money. [Aside].
Then secondly she has allowed, people to take away money to any country, any one. Firstly when we were there only twenty-five pounds were allowed in cash. Now Indians are very good at black money, and also English have learnt this [INAUDIBLE]. All this money is flowing all over, and now they have made a pact with India that all laundering of money and all that, we’ll work it out. But so much money has already come out. What is the conservatism in this? She has not conserved anything out of it, but so they are suffering from bankruptcy, complete bankruptcy. But English are stupid, why did they vote her again and again, I don’t know. She was talking big all the time her talks were such [INAUDIBLE] She did no public work. Very bumptious person, extremely bumptious. Even now she’s not given up, even now. She goes to Russia, goes here there, preaching something good as if she’s done good things.
English have certain good assets, one is sense of justice there, justice is the best there. Also administration. Of course they don’t do anything that’s different, but administration is there. And also they have certain moral values. These are much better than French values. Now once, Europe becomes one, England will be finished. Absolutely. Because how will they control? Already ten Sahaja Yogis have moved in Cabella, because they couldn’t earn anything there. They are all very well qualified. Mark is very well qualified. He’s a very good plumber. We have electricians there. We have carpenters. Builders. All these people couldn’t earn even hundred pounds per month. So they have shifted now to Cabella. As soon as they came to Italy, I don’t know how, by some Divine force, a scheme has started hunting heads they call it. So they want people to join this hunting heads, and they are paying five hundred pounds per head, just for the training. They are already trained. And once they get a certificate from these people, they can work very well there.
So for [INAUDIBLE] he says: ‘Mother it’s too good to be true’. While Italy has progressed. That’s the richest country now. Within these fourteen years time. I remember when I went there Guido asked Me for two things. ‘Mother we want prosperity’. I said do your handwork. Don’t give it up. Do your crafts. And the second thing he said: ‘Get rid of this Mafia.’ Within eight days one sub-inspector came in he jumped on the Mafia, and they all had to shift to America. And now third thing is Vatican, which is also going. But they have prospered. Very much. And how they have prospered, by obeying no laws. You know for a developing country there’s no need to have too many laws. For example, I had to buy a land, for your ashram. So I went to the notary. He had a big calculator, he went tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk, tells Me on My Face there, notary himself, that so much you must bring black money and so much white money. I said: ‘Really? But I don’t have black money.’ ‘No you go and tell the manager of the bank. He’ll manage it.’ So I went to the manager. He again did tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk. Said: ‘All right. We can make it. You come on such and such date. Your money will be ready. This much black. This is white.’ The manager himself does it.
I took that money, bought the land without any difficulty, then I asked him how is it you are a notary, and how can you tell Me that I should pay so much black? He said in this country nobody wants to pay income tax. So, that’s a fact. That’s a reality. And I said: ‘What do you do, supposing I have to pay an income tax and I don’t pay?’ ‘Very simple. For five years they send you notice. Please send so much, income tax. And if you don’t pay, then after five years, they’ll tell you at least pay ten per cent. But even then if you don’t pay, they’ll say: Oh forget it’. But I said: ‘Why do you do that?’ He said: ‘Because we want to progress. Laws are to be obeyed, if it is allowed to progress, we want to progress.’
While in India, just the opposite. I mean we behave as if we are very rich people to have all these laws and income tax. If somebody doesn’t pay the income tax, and if he’s found out, all the newspapers, everybody and there’s such a lot of black market there, will be talking about it everyone: ‘Oh he didn’t pay his income tax’. Nobody pays there, actually. It’s like that. That’s how they solve their problem. If you really release here your, laws and regulations, this is a very rich country you can become very rich. For example they told Me, they are killing the lambs here because there are too many lambs so they don’t know what to do. So I told Avinash, that let Me know if people want to import lamb from here, what should you do. ‘Such a big book,’ he said: ‘Such a big book.’ I don’t know how much he must have spent also posting Me that.
And then I was surprised. There’s a committee which will examine the lambs. Then there’s another doctors’ committee through which the lambs have to go. This is to be done by the other party. Why are you doing? You have to sell it. You are not the buyer. Worse than the buyers. I gave up I said. I mean to read that itself would take one year. Just to go through. So all these rules and regulations these bureaucrats are taking, just for their own satisfaction. And in India that’s the only way they can make money. Here also they must be making money no doubt. But it’s a kind of a satisfaction. Here also. Such laws and regulations. And recessions. What else will be there?
Yogi: They’re very keen to be seen to be playing on what they call a level playing field with world trade partners and a lot of the rest of the world are laughing down their sleeves at them because they’re going out of their way to be seen to be doing the right thing and they’re just cutting their own wrists.
Shri Mataji: What is right thing? What is right?
Yogi: Well they feel that they should promote free trade, so they’re letting other people bring their products in and it’s meaning that the Australian products are becoming worth less. In fact so little that they can’t afford to sell them.
Shri Mataji: [INAUDIBLE] it’s not a sensible thing. You must export.
Yogi: They don’t know how to value-add to their products. They’ve relied on primary industries for a long time and they’ve ruined the land, a lot of the land. They’ve stripped it of trees and they’ve employed European farming techniques on land which can’t cope with it and so now they’re realizing that they can’t rely on those products and they haven’t in the time developed the ability.
Shri Mataji: But they don’t produce consumers’ goods. They cannot produce consumers’ goods you see. Just like Canada. Canada has the same problem. Had it. Not now. Some Germans have come there, and they had the same problem, that Canada would export aluminium, all these mineral things, to America – they would make a car and sell it at double price. Just like that. You have so many things in this country.
Yogi: Australia chops all its old rain forests down, sends it to Japan and Japan makes paper out of it and we buy writing paper from them.
Shri Mataji: Why can’t you make paper?
Yogi: Well then there’s a lot of arguments on an environmental basis for not producing paper in many places because it has adverse impacts.
Shri Mataji: If that little tiny thing like Japan can make it, such a huge big country, what is this environment business?
Yogi: Well the argument is that the Japanese environment has been really severely degraded.
Shri Mataji: I tell you they are just befooling you. Japanese are very clever people. They are taking everything from here. Least bothered about their environment. You have such a lot of land. Can do so many things. Make some portion of your land available for this. Otherwise you will just have environment and no food. You can’t live with environment only.
Yogi: If they have a good idea they have to wait for someone in some other part of the world to make money out of it before they try here and then it’s too late. They could grow timber plantations from effluent from towns but instead of that it’s slightly cheaper in the short term to put the water into the rivers and then they get algae, toxic algae, growing in the rivers. They won’t take the steps required to actually invest in using that water to grow timber, which they can make paper with, for their own markets.
Shri Mataji: That’s why it’s lopsided. Absurd. I mean if you see the export of lamb, which is killed here, it’s amazing. That does tell us I think. How can it be? I mean you are killing your lambs, and you can export. One thing has worked out when I came here last time, I was saying they should have barter system with Russia. Is very good. And that’s what they have. Somehow it has gone into their heads. But I’ve been blasting on that point.
You can’t live with trees only, you have to have food also. There should be some balance. Fool’s paradise as they call it. Then your recession cannot end with this kind of schemes you have, can never end. In Russia see now, Russians are, they have learnt that their people have become very comfortable. You see if you give them, say now this is your house, you take this house. No, no, no, no we don’t want to take it. We can’t look after it. You’d better do. You give them anything they don’t want it. They give them the land, now this is your land. No, no, no, no, no. Let the Government look after. Then they were very comfortable with that. They don’t want to work. That’s their problem. Basic problem.
But still I must say they have realized one thing, that we have to export whatever is possible. Now from India people have gone to Siberia. And they are cutting the trees there. In India is very expensive, you see. They will be, sending it all over the world. They have realized it and so much, for export. So much. That anybody who wants to try, it’s very easy to for them to get things done. They have no money so if they are exporting something, they are getting the foreign exchange. Very anxious to export, and they can. They have so many things that they can export, already.
As communism has failed, democracy has also failed, in a way. The other day I went out shopping, I found things were so expensive. Here even a good shirt like that costs you so much. Very expensive. So they told Me that they have second-hand shops here, where people who cannot afford buy it second-hand. Well that’s worse than India. Nobody would buy second-hand goods in India. Recession, inflation. I hope these ideas go into their heads. This country is very, very rich. Very rich. But no accent on export. No accent at all. Then you are making these aluminium, what you call them, cases. And I wanted them to be brought to England, aluminium ones, these cases what you call them, aluminium Paddington cases. Impossible. Such a red tape for that, export. There should be no red tape for export. For import is all right. I can’t understand this. It’s really upside down economics.
Yogi: So the United Europe will be a good thing for trade.
Shri Mataji: But they will become very, localized in a way. See once they are United Europe, they will exclude Australia, exclude India, they will not take any meats from here. Now they have passed a law that no meat will be taken from any other countries but European countries. Because there are five countries, which are going to join European Market. Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria. And Sahaja Yoga is just spreading out. Then another is Italy, which is very good. Another France. Italy we have already somehow or other, gone into politics, for the green party. So, if we have, people in all these, maybe in Europe we’ll have a good chance. But with this exclusion what will you do here? Can try south-east Asian countries. But there’s no venture about it. They have to go to these countries, find out what they need. They can sell it.
I was telling them this gulab jamun and rasgulas you make here, you can export them to Singapore, to Hong Kong, to any of these places, it will sell like hot cakes. But for that if you have to go through the red tape nobody is going to do. They’re not interested, those who are importers don’t want all these things isn’t it. That one can do I mean you can really make a good money out of all that. If you could get hold of some Germans, who make very good sausages and things like that, and sell them as German sausages.
All these places. Taiwan is now so rich. You can export food there. Philippines, Thailand, all these places. Good quality meats and foods. I was surprised at those rasgulas. I’ve never eaten such good rasgulas in India. They can be packed well and can be sent anywhere. But they are selling in England like that. But they may not later on when it becomes Europe, may not. Maybe these Indian things they may accept, because in Singapore there are lots of Indians. Thailand they have lots of, in Taiwan also. All these places. Specially Kuala Lumpur, full of it, and you don’t get this nice, because they don’t have such good milk. Is there somebody from Kuala Lumpur here? No one. So all these milk products can go.
Sumir, you were making samosas. Instead of that you make these things. [HINDI] You have to move. You have to move it you have to go and show them the example and all that, and the price, competitive price [HINDI]. Singapore, because they don’t get milk even. So many Indians in Singapore. But you have to move. You have to go find out. But to send rasgulas from here you’ll have to pass through a big, red tape whether it is all right. They will all eat it first of all. At least hundred kilos will be consumed in that.
I’ve never seen such a thing that the person who has to sell, goes through all these, guarantees. I mean if something wrong, they can find out, those who are purchasing.
Who can talk to them? Who will bend the fact? A person like Me Who is an outsider can see these points so clearly. That’s how recession can be easily controlled with such a rich country. Germans are very good at it. They are selling these eggs of quail, at such a high price, and the quails. Minting money. Asparagus, I don’t know. They are such a small country. They sell all kinds of things. Asparagus you can grow here very well. Asparagus is so expensive. In India also. You have cheese now, cheese. This Kraft cheese, tinned cheese, you can export it to all the countries. There are Indians who are just waiting for it. All over. Nobody goes and finds out.
Then you have dried fruits here which are very good, which are very expensive. Especially your solar systems. You can sell it all over. You have so many engineers. They sent some things to Me, and I showed it to somebody, in India. They said: ‘Oh I can’t fix it.’ So somebody, an engineer can go and fix it up or something. It can work in all these countries. But it’s not available at all. I think, in Australia people lack the capacity to sell. You must get some people, marketing people. Like T.M. is good at marketing. Very good. Marketing absolutely nonsense.
Yogi: It’s not doing them any good though Mother.
Shri Mataji: But that’s different. I am just joking. But marketing they are doing. I mean to sell something nonsense. Is something creditable, that gives credit. As it is there’s recession and they will suck out all the money that you have. Put people on the streets. I think you should hire some people for marketing. Good Indians you can get. Indians are very good when they are, not in their own country. Because in India you cannot do anything. It’s impossible. [HINDI] It has always failed. I also allowed. I said some people wanted to do some business, this way that way. I mean I am not so rigid. But it has always failed. Never worked out. Created big problems. Sahaj Yogis can do individually on their own. I mean it’s a business thing. Not through Sahaja Yoga. You shouldn’t do it. I think it’s not permissible. Divine Laws don’t help.
Or if four, five people join together, they may be Sahaja Yogis, but it’s nothing to do with Sahaja Yoga. Keep Sahaja Yoga out of all this. We don’t need money, we don’t need anything. I never have problems of money. Australia has because people are stingy here. Very stingy. Australians are known to be the most stingiest people. Even worse than Turkish. That’s the reputation they have, really. When it comes to presents, the lowest amount they will give for Australia, though we have so many Sahaja Yogis. Lowest amount. They used to only give first ten pounds, then fifty pounds, then hundred pounds, now two hundred pounds. For that also they want to reduce now. Big objections. Big things. For a hundred pounds what do you get, nothing. And last, last one is hundred pounds, in the present. And that’s for Australia. Though I was telling them: ‘Don’t get any present, don’t get. Don’t do this. I don’t want’. But they are so enthusiastic, all of them. So enthusiastic. And the number of Sahaja Yogis we have, are quite a lot.
Very stingy. Especially Melbourne people are horrible. I mean, for anything they are very stingy. The more you become stingy the worse it will be. I never had any problem of money never in life, and I spend money. I don’t understand accounts or anything, just go on spending. Yesterday I was talking to Vinay, and he was telling me why don’t you have only five hundred pounds for people who come only for Ganapatipule. The way Australian mind, he too has picked up. I said: ‘See if I decide that, all the Australians will only come for Ganapatipule, firstly’. Then I told him the accounts, how much money I have to spend. This time [HINDI]. Had to make up.
And he was so shocked at the whole thing. Because there are at least hundred and fifty people who came just free, from all these countries. When I told him the accounts he was so shocked. I must have spent more than fifteen lakhs of rupees, Myself, My Own. He was so shocked. Because though, you see we say that pound has gone up and all. But India is very expensive, food wise [HINDI] It’s gone up so much. Very expensive. Whatever it is, what I’m trying to tell you that, I never had problem. These fifteen lakhs I got just like that. No problem.
Yogi: Maybe we should increase the ground fare. It shouldn’t be…
Shri Mataji: I want you to be comfortable, to have good food to have, all this coming by train too [HINDI] I mean to every place we used to take them out, see places, go round. Even those dramas and all that we had to pay such a lot of money to them. I never have problems. I never ask for money from anyone also. This money was fixed long time back. Since then it’s going on. Then we have got, Vashi School. When we asked for money, for Vashi School, on one Sahastrara time, I think five thousand or six thousand pounds. That time the value of pound was eighteen rupees. So they were so ashamed, that they put it back in the bank and they said Mother not now, we’ll not send it. And the whole of Vashi School, have you seen Vashi School, anyone?
Yogi: Those who went on the Tour Mother, they saw it.
Shri Mataji: All that was built, with our money. I don’t know how many have seen the Delhi Ashram? [HINDI] for everything. Except for this time they collected some six thousand. Five, six lakhs. For the land, everything. Then Vaitarna land. Then Ganapatipule. Then Shere. Then there’s another land we have, in Pune. There’s another land we have bought. Twenty-five acres of land for the experiment of these agriculture. Then another land in Awagar. All this I’ve done in these four years, since Mr Warren left Me. In these four years. Before that not a single pi was left. It has worked out.
Yogi: [HINDI] Question about ground fare.
Shri Mataji: It’s all right. [HINDI] But so many people are coming free. Then whatever are presents I give you, I give them. Just the same. If they are getting married. Now those people who came from, South America all came free, never paid anything. Even part of the traveling and most of the traveling of these people who are coming, is paid for. It works out. I’ll give you a concrete example. When I was in, this was in Rome I think. So, Guido told Me, ‘Mother there’s a land available. But we need sixteen thousand pounds just now, put it. If You put sixteen thousand immediately, we can book that land’. So I said: ‘I don’t know if I have in the bank but I’ll see, if I have’.
So I went to the, airport. I was about to leave. Sandra [surname] she just came and handed over a packet. She said Mother: ‘This is for you’. I said: ‘What?’ ‘There’s money. In Liras.’ ‘For Me? For what? I don’t need’. ‘No no for You, Mother, for You. Please take it I have kept it for you. This is Yours’. I said: ‘How much?’ She said: ‘Sixteen thousand pounds’. It was sixteen thousand exactly. I said: ‘All right, give Me’. And I gave it to him there only. I said: ‘You now book’. So he went and booked that land. And then he said that Mother: ‘We didn’t need all that money. We have booked it as it is. So the money’s all Yours’. I said: ‘How did you book?’ He said: ‘We don’t need any money just put Your Name, finished. Whenever You have money [INAUDIBLE]’. That’s also another good news.
Then they wanted to have Shudy Camps. So I said: ‘All right I’ll go to Italy, buy all these things that are necessary’. Means all the pots, pans everything, for the w.c.’s and, bathrooms and all the, what you call them, marble, then all fittings and curtains, everything. So I had taken some money from the bank. Went down. So Guido said Mother those sixteen thousand pounds are there, not spent, in Liras. I said: ‘All right let’s go’. So in one day I bought everything. Now you have seen Shudy Camps, how many bathrooms we have, how much marble we have put in, all the curtains, everything. Everything I bought in one day. And I gave them hundred pounds more saying that: ‘You get this cotton cloth, get some more for My drawing room. Beautiful, beautiful, curtains. And when the bill came, it was exactly six thousand one hundred. I first thought this is all manipulation by Sahaja Yogis. I said: ‘Who has done this billing?’ They said: ‘The shop has.’ Really? ‘Yes the shop has done it.’ ‘You haven’t done it?’ No. That is this hundred pounds are all there. So they said this You had curtains made Mother, You forgot’. I said: ‘All right.’
Everything came in that sixteen thousand pounds. So now, we are having, this Cabella, an ashram. So the English Sahaja Yogis said: ‘Mother, you have spent sixteen thousand pounds here. So we’ll send You timber worth of sixteen thousand, which will be very sufficient for Cabella. Barter system going on, with the sixteen thousand only, nothing more, nothing less. This is one of the examples I have given. No problem at all, of any kind, any time. It all gets solved, you must just have faith, that you are being watched over. And not to be stingy.
Then this, Sandra you know, I’ll tell you how she was blessed. She had a, I should say flat in a very funny place, horrible. Absolutely horrible. I mean it was like a chawl as we say in India, and she sold it for an exorbitant price. All my houses that I bought for nothing were sold for very high price, just like that. But if you go on worrying about money, money will never come to you. That’s in Sahaja Yoga you see. Without Sahaja Yoga is all right but, after Sahaja Yoga you shouldn’t worry. It all works out.
Like James came for My Birthday, and he brought one wooden bird, to be given to Me. Rajesh said: ‘You put it down. Don’t show. Otherwise people will just say: ‘What little bird you have brought, from Australia all the way, for Mother’s Birthday. Better not give it, for heaven’s sake don’t give it. Just give it. You can give it otherwise but don’t give it as present’. But he was shameless, he never felt bad about it. Absolutely shameless. ‘Oh it’s a bird you know, very famous bird, it’s very rare, it laughs this and that’. But this doesn’t laugh you see. And he was on and on about that bird only. Shameless. Then Rajesh couldn’t bear it any more, ‘In short you are a very miserly man, that’s all’. He couldn’t help it. What? Nothing, a small little bird he brings when, he’s coming all the way from Australia, to represent Australia’s love for Me with this bird, made of wood.
I said: ‘You should not have brought it. You have brought to show your heart isn’t it’. But he was shameless. Absolutely shameless. And Rajesh couldn’t bear it. He said: ‘ No. You are a very miserly man, that’s what you are. You don’t understand anything. You don’t know what you are doing’. He told him off. This you are not going to be giving. He packed it up, packed it up. Such a big box. Opens out with a little bird. He thought some rat is going to come out. There’s no brains. If he was so hard up he should not have brought anything. I felt very bad that Rajesh had to tell him, and he couldn’t take it any more. He said: ‘Mother, supposing if I had allowed him, what people would have thought of Australians’. Just think. I said: ‘All right. Whatever he gives is all right’. Wouldn’t stop. He must go on praising that bird. So that is what it is.
Yogi: I think the fine weather is leaving us Mother. It’s getting very black.
Shri Mataji: What are you expecting now?
Yogi: We haven’t had any rain today, have we?
Shri Mataji: What you want you tell Me? Once in England in the beginning they said: ‘Mother we want a very very hot summer.’ I said: ‘Are you sure?’ ‘Yes Mother, very, very hot summer.’ And there was, you remember one summer We had in London, famous summer, what year was that?
Shri Mataji: 76. I said: ‘You’ll have it.’ Then the situation was so bad, that there are no fans, nothing. I mean, at least in India we have air conditioning, if not the fans. No arrangements are there. And the windows so small. We went to buy fans. They said: ‘You have to apply, and we’ll give you after three months. And there was a queue for fans. And everybody was going hah, hah, such a bad summer. Such a bad summer. And autumn was very beautiful after that. So then they said Mother: ‘Sorry.’ I said: ‘You said very, very hot. Very, very hot’. I was telling you you are a Sahaja Yogi, don’t say like that, but you were saying, very, very hot. Very, very hot. So now it becomes very, very hot. You should have said warm, but you said hot. And I think for three months. Scorchingly hot, it was. I said you had it. Nature knows the balance. Not too much. Little bit is all right. I think some Sahaja Yogis must have asked for rain. And it rained and rained and rained. All right. We have to be thankful to Mother Earth, the Australian Mother Earth, for giving such a beautiful time to Us. May God Bless You.
I have a good film about Shankaracharya. If you want to see, you can see it. After you will know what it is to get Self-realization, in those days. He died very young.
So that film is available if you want to see you can see it tonight.
Yogi: Tonight is the music program. 9 o’clock. [HINDI]
Shri Mataji: [HINDI] You should show them Shankaracharya in Sydney with Me. Everybody can see.
[Musical Gap and then a short talk during the music program follows]
Shri Mataji: It was such an unexpected, joyous event for Us that Shrimati Padma Menen has agreed to give this beautiful performance. And to again remind Us what We saw in Madras. Actually, her guru was there and We went to her foundation where there were 50 ladies who danced before Me. It is a great pleasure to see you here, that in a foreign country you are spreading the art of [Ragantri?]. I am sure you must have understood most of her actions but what you have to see is her mastery over rhythm, firstly. And secondly, on the abhinaya, means the [mai?]. Such a master she is and it’s such a vigorous vibrant dance. I’m seeing one better than the other, as I would say. I saw lots of them in Madras and now to see here it was a great pleasure to Me. And to all of Us, because We know a lot about Ramayana and We know a lot about Mahabharata. But to weave it into such beautiful patterns is something of a great art and a great talent. It’s not possible for everybody to dance like this. Neither, even if you practice you cannot dance like this. It’s something innate, some inner force, that works it out so well. For such a long she danced. I mean, one would feel completely exhausted. But with such vigor, with such power, she’s shown different expressions. One minute she is this, one minute she is that. It’s really very remarkable. I’m really proud of her that she has come to Australia to spread this beautiful dancing pattern and to teach others here. May God bless her.
H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi