Radio Interview in Hongkong 1992 March 6th
Interviewer: Shri Mataji, from the information I’ve read about You, You were born in India, a Christian. How was that ?
Shri Mataji: I was born a Christian, that’s all.
Interviewer: There can’t be many Christian families in that country.
Shri Mataji: There are lots of Christians. Apart from that I was born a Christian.
Interviewer: Which part of India do you truly come from ?
Shri Mataji: Just the centre of India. Absolutely the centre of India.
Interviewer: Is there anything specific about this being the central point ?
Shri Mataji: It is the central point because I have to be in the centre to do my job. That’s why I was born in the centre of India.
Interviewer: When You were a child, though, being born in the centre of India, did that mean anything to you, as a young girl ?
Shri Mataji: I did not know it was the centre or anything to be discovered about it. I just knew what My mission was, what I was. I knew I was to be born at the right point. I took all these things for granted. I knew this was to be so. I knew this very well.
Interviewer: How old were You when you realised that You had this mission ?
Shri Mataji: All my life. As you realise you are a human, in the same way I knew I had to do all this. I knew I was different.
Interviewer: And did You start fulfilling this mission ever since You can remember ?
Shri Mataji: Yes of course. I knew I had healing powers and I knew I had curing powers. I knew I could raise the kundalini; all that I knew. But I knew I wanted to do something to know all the combinations and permutations of the problems of human beings. That’s how I studied that. I wanted to find out a proper time (that) I could find out a method by (which) a mass happening could happen they could achieve it.
And of the 5th of May I was sitting near the sea there. I decided that is should happen and it worked out that the last centre as they call it, the limbic area above, that resides the opening for the Divine, what we can call what we call in the bible as the baptism. The baptism we had was just a ritual. The real baptism is that when the residual force within us called as kundalini, when it rises and pierces the fontanelle bone area, which is a soft bone you had as a child, that time is the real baptism and this baptism was to be achieved.
But I wanted to make a way by which we could make a mass happening, because, you see, if it happened to one person, say, Christ was a Realised Soul, a great incarnation he was the Son of God no doubt, but nobody recognized Him. And when He tried to explain they would not understand because he was at such a height that they could not understand what He was seeing, what He was talking about and ultimately it was very wrong to crucify a man of that calibre. He was the incarnation.
Interviewer: So it was on the 5th of May, of what particular year ?
Shri Mataji: 1970.
Interviewer: Let’s go back to when You were a child. Was there anything about the way You were brought up that might have led You to ?
Shri Mataji: Very much. From My very childhood I knew I was to be conceived by My mother. They told Me lots of things. What happened to My mother.
But one of the main things I remember now was this. She wanted to go and see a tiger when she was eight months pregnant and My father said: “That’s funny that you want to go and see a tiger at this advanced stage of pregnancy”. But she said: “No, I must go and see a tiger”. And so My father was a big well-known hunter is those days and one of the Rajas sent a word saying there was, man-eater perhaps in the forest and we would like you to come and help us. “See now I’ve got a message and now I have to go”. And My mother said: “Alright, if you have to go, I am coming with you”. “How will you come at this stage ?”. “No, I must come to see the tiger moving”. Then he went there and she also.
We use a kind of platform on top. They build it in a tree. And these villagers, you see, they drive the animal towards the hunter. My father and mother always sitting on top of the (platform), and suddenly the big, huge tiger appeared, and My mother said he had never seen such a big one before, it was coming in the moonlight and walking very stealthily in his own grace and dignity. And My mother was so enamored, you see, that she just looked at it. She was so happy as if her child has seen. She felt very happy, she said. My father wanted to kill the animal and mother said: “No, if you are going to kill the animal, I am going to jump. You are not going to kill the tiger”. Then the tiger disappeared. They don’t know where the tiger went. So My father knew that it would be some powerful personality that is going to be born. And My father, being a Realised Soul, knew it was something extraordinary.
Interviewer: What about when You were actually a child ? Did they treat you as something special and teach You some special things to help on this mission of Yours ?
Shri Mataji: No it was not like that. You see it was a very free sort of an expression of a personality. People accepted. I was very loving, compassionate and generous. I was a unique person to have as a child, but it was different; but only thing I would say that My father understood Me much better because he was a Realised Soul. When grew up he told Me: “No use talking about it to anyone. First of all find a method by which people get en masse realisation. That is Your work. As you know, unless and until you find that, there’s no use talking about it. They’ll create another Koran or Bible, what’s the use ? You must give them an experience or they will never understand”.
Interviewer: Did You continue this idea of Yours of trying to get this message going through Your work with Mahatma Gandhi ?
Shri Mataji: No, that time it was very different. It was an emergency. In a small way I contributed. He loved Me very much. He used to call Me Nepali. It is our face you see, because I have a broad face. He always used to call Me Nepali. But he was a man born for an emergency and when India wanted to be politically independent. But there was this thing.
And a political leader needs not worry about Spirit and Religion, but he considered our country to be a land of Yoga. He always based his theories and philosophies and activities on the fibre of the people. We are a very religious people and how to create an atmosphere of satisfaction in the people. He had that within him. But he didn’t talk of Realisation and when I was a little child of 7 years I used to play about with him and (he) was very fond of Me so I would make some orange juice for him and he would discuss with Me small things and remember once I told him: “Why do you make everyone get up so early ? If you want to get up you can, but why do you make everyone get up so early ? It’s all right for Me, but why do you have to make everyone ?” (He said:) “Everyone should be made to get up we are passing through a crisis. We have to fight the British and get our independence and if people are lethargic how are we going to do it ? So we have to be disciplined and we must have discipline and it will be all right”. And then I told him: “We need to have inner discipline” and so he knew that I was a wise person.
And he used to love Me and respect Me in a very fatherly manner. He would discuss things with Me. He impressed Me by many things. He had a sense of integrity within himself. He was absolutely honest to himself. That was something I appreciated. He never cheated himself. This is the greatest thing about him. In money matters, anything, he was so integrated. What he said he did, he criticized himself. But for him Realisation was not the problem at that time.
But after independence we should have taken to Realisation. That was the main problem. But after independence we had problems of, say, partition. And the diversion of the whole attention was on the wrong things. We had to solve this problem and nobody thought of Realisation at that time. It should be so.
Interviewer: How much do You think Mahatma Gandhi influenced the way Your Sahaja Yoga developed, Your way of thinking now, Your technique maybe ?
Shri Mataji: You see it was no question of influence because you see this is another realm I am talking about. Sahaja Yoga takes you to another realm where these problems do not exist. These problems work out with Divine power, not with human powers. And Divine power is there and they work it out eventually in such a smooth manner that there is no need to used these human powers. But his main contribution, I think, was to establish balance in people. Balance in people was the main thing. And make them more Indian and to take out all the slavish mentality that had trickled down into us, make us feel our own self-neglect all these things were there.
But the realm in which I was was different from his. So the question of influence doesn’t come in. But, I would say that certain things influenced by My choice, say, of different prayers. I told him according to the different centres within us. I said you do this one, then this one, and he said: “All right, it’s a good idea” and he changed. It was so smooth and silently done that it was not made obvious to anyone that we had any rapport on these things nor did he ever ask me about Spirit nor did he ever meditate. He did not meditate because he was not Realised. At that time he was not a Realised Soul. His main attention was for this and he will be born again and he will be Realised. He will be born Realised because he was very, very great. He was a Great Soul, no doubt. He was extremely great as a human being. But Realisation is very different. It’s another realm into which human beings go. His meditation was to ponder about things and to guide oneself, but not the kind of meditation where we become thoughtlessly aware. It’s a different dimension in your awareness.
Interviewer: Is this then what Self-Realisation means, what You mean as a Realised Soul ?
Shri Mataji: Yes, Self-Realisation means when the Self, which is talked about in all the scriptures, starts emitting its manifestation in our conscious mind means that time when we become aware of it. To this extent our central nervous system starts recording the power of our Spirit, of one Self. And we start feeling the breeze-like vibrations of the Spirit which is called in the Bible as the Cool Breeze of the Holy Spirit.
Interviewer: You’re saying then that when a person is Realised he feels some actual physical things ?
Shri Mataji: Yes, the energy that’s flowing through him he can feel it. It’s flowing through his body. Not only that but he becomes. It’s not lecturing or any brain-washing. He actually becomes collectively conscious, means in his awareness he can start feeling another person’s centres and also his own centres and he can start correcting it.
Interviewer: Is it like finding what one can, or what people have loosely described as the Soul inside one ?
Shri Mataji: Yes, but they are quite confused people. They don’t know what is Soul, what is Spirit. But these are all precise things. Soul is the thing which is not only Spirit but is the body, the personality, except for the element of earth in it. We are made of five elements out of which the element of earth drops out; then you become the Soul, because you cannot be seen but you exist in another plane.
Interviewer: Was it before You decided to start, truly started, Your mission You also took some courses in medicine ?
Shri Mataji: Yes, I did some medicine because I knew I had to talk to doctors and explain to them what is all this because I knew, but I didn’t know what to call it because the names are given by human beings. So I had to study. I also studied one dictionary on psychology because I knew I had to talk to psychologists, doctors and scientists who have to know about it to say what they call it, you see.
Interviewer: The theory that scientists say that man came from a little cell from heaven knows where. How did you feel about those ?
Shri Mataji: It’s a fact, it’s a fact. He (man) came through a cell, evolved through a cell. How did he evolve ? Why did he evolve ? What is the purpose of his life ? (It) is not all answered by science. What is the power that makes you evolve ? Also, that is not answered. So in Sahaja Yoga you know all that not only you evolve but with the same power you go higher.
Interviewer: What is Your theory about that then ? Why are we here, or, why are we so long in the process ?
Shri Mataji: You see, anything that you create, even human beings for example, you have created things. A beautiful lamp is to give us the light, isn’t it, the power. So that’s how God has created us, to give His power to us that we feel Him and know Him in our awareness and understand and we emit His powers and enjoy it. To say in the words of Christ: “To enter into the kingdom of God”.
Interviewer: Are You talking about the same God as every religion talks about ?
Shri Mataji: Absolutely, there’s nothing else.
Interviewer: Is Sahaja Yoga a sort of new religion ?
Shri Mataji: No, it is the integration, it’s the Enlightenment that proves all the religions and all the incarnations and their integration.
Interviewer: How does it prove it ?
Shri Mataji: So, in the sense that you can see, in the room there are many things. When it’s dark you see this thing as something different and another thing and you say it is something different, (or) this is mine, this is mine, this is the truth, because you see that and another sees another thing. But in the light you see the whole thing belongs to the same. Sahaja Yoga just gives you that light of the Spirit by which you start seeing it’s all just the same. For example, now, once you are connected to the Spirit you start getting those cool vibrations in your hand. Now, you want to ask: “Now is there God ?”. Immediately you start getting a lot of cool vibrations coming to you. The questions are answered like this. You start feeling them, and every question. If you ever have a problem, you can ask and you can know because you are connected to the Absolute. All such questions you are asking. Say you are a Realised Soul. You can get the answers on your hands and you can know if this is true. Whether Christ was. Now they say He was the Son of God. People challenge, I can understand that because they were not Realised souls, that’s why they couldn’t understand that time. But when you’re Realised, you just ask: “Was He the Son of God ?” and you’ll see that the vibrations will start flowing. You’ll know who was really a real saint or a prophet, a fake one. Everything you can find out through these vibrations because a rapport is established now you are connected. Like this (microphone) is connected to the mains. Unless and until this speaker is connected to the mains it is useless. You are to be connected to the mains. Unless and until this instrument, that is created from amoeba to this stage, is connected to the mains you will not know yourself. You are not going to know your meaning, neither are you going to know the function for which you are created.
Interviewer: Surely it’s a matter of what stage of Your development that You can even start to question about these things.
Shri Mataji: No, not necessarily, because the time has come. There’s no need to have a question. I find it everywhere. I find it has different styles. For example some countries have problems they are facing. They are so speedy. Cancer is one of them which can be cured after Sahaja Yoga, otherwise you cannot cure cancer. So many things are there. Developing countries have their own problems, they start thinking: “What about us ? How are we ?” For example, India, we have problems, they get so confused. They don’t know how to solve these problems. They try to solve one problem, so they start thinking about it, now what is it, what’s going wrong ? You do not have the light. You are walking in the darkness. You are bumping at each other for nothing at all.
Interviewer: Will people be able to handle this Sahaja Yoga do You think ?
Shri Mataji: Yes, by all means. You see once you are Self-Realised you have to, a little bit, establish yourself that’s true. You take about, at the most, one month or two months. Once you are established you become so powerful and so wise. The vibrations tell you and you just don’t do wrong things. If you start doing it you don’t like it because you start getting the pain in the fingers. Something happens to you, you enjoy this, so blissful.
Interviewer: Don’t You think that perhaps it might go the same way, say, for instance, if You talk about Christ teaching His love idea and how we should love everybody, that some people just didn’t accept that.
Shri Mataji: It does not matter. But that may not be possible now because who cannot accept will have problems. They will have to accept or they will have problems. Gradually perhaps they have to accept it. This is because this is the solution to all of the problems; because you have problems you have to accept it, otherwise human beings are not easy thing to accept it. Christ, you see, at that time, didn’t come for Self-Realisation. He just came to prove that there is Spiritual power. Resurrection, which cannot be killed, is His message. My message is not Resurrection or anything. Mine if your Resurrection. Resurrection of the whole human race, (it) is their Evolution. (This) is My message. This is My job.
Interviewer: How are You going to convince hard-boiled cynics that this is the right way to go about things ?
Shri Mataji: You see, this nature will work it out in so many ways. These cynics are there. They are cynics because of certain reasons. There would not be so, but they are conditioned. You can find out because they must be having problems with that, mental problems, also problems with the family. Cynics will always have problems with the family. I do not say that they always have problems; some say that only those who are happy can come to Sahaja Yoga. Not necessarily so. There is a category of seekers. There is a category of people who are seekers. First I have to worry about them those who are real seekers. It’s a category. And that’s why they are unhappy because they are a different category. They will not be satisfied with anything. They will try everything. They will try to get some money, to get power. They’ll try this, that. But they’ll not be happy, because they’re a different category. Then they will seek God, so they’ll seek again, God.
They’ll go to wrong people and spend money here, there. Do this, that. Everything they’ll try, and then they’ll find out. Still they haven’t found out what they were (seeking), so they’ll come to Sahaja Yoga. So, first, my attention is on the seekers. It’s a category. As I told you these people know that William Blake has written about, he calls them: “Men of God”. And these men of God, he says, will become prophets. And these prophets have a special power by which they will be giving Realisation to others and making them into prophets.
Interviewer: Are You saying then that William Blake was a Realised Soul.
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course.
Interviewer: How can one be a Realised Soul when You’re here now ?
S.M.(laughing): You see, there were many Realised Souls before also, and it’s the power (which) is all-pervading; is eternal, is all-existing. All of these great Saints like we can say John the Baptist was a Realised Soul, Shakespeare was a great Realised Soul. He was tremendous, the way he tried to show the futility of life. He definitely was a Realised Soul. And this you will know by feeling the vibrations of these people, whether they were Realised or not. You can feel the vibrations that they were Realised Souls. And these Realised Souls (existed) thousands of years back. Like on a tree, there are only one or two flowers to begin with, then gradually the blossom times come and there are many flowers and there are many fruits for growth.
Interviewer: What does it take to be a Realised Soul. Is it a mature person, or is it somebody who appreciates mankind for what it is ?
Shri Mataji: No, it’s not a mental status that’s important. It is the desire within you, the pure desire to be one with God, to be one with beyond. This pure desire; it may exist, also the desire that you see it’s not everything.
You get fed up. It’s a drama and you get bored. You try everything, but you are not happy about it. You see, it’s the pure desire, be one with your Spirit. You may not be educated; You may be a street urchin. You could be living in a remote place but still the pure desire may be in you completely existing and that works it out. But you are not aware of the pure desire, but it works out. But you are not aware of the pure desire, but that works it out because you do not feel happy with other things you feel frustrated. And what ever you try, so what ! It’s an economic science. You see, in particular, you may satisfy a want but in general they are not satiable. So even the matter teaches you.
Interviewer: Two very interesting thoughts come to my head at this point. One, is it through being Realised that one gets knowledge of what’s on the other side of death, as it were. And, two, whether one really, through this Realisation, that one finds a little bit of God inside oneself.
Shri Mataji: That’s the point. Second point is correct. You find God within yourself then your priorities change about knowing about things. You don’t want to know what is beyond life because you come in the present. You are not worried about the past and the future but that also you know because gradually your vision improves. You start seeing what happens after death. You see the patients coming to you and you start seeing they are spirits and this and that and they are possessed by the spirits and then you talk and find out such a lot about them, what all that is. So it comes to you as an experimentation with your truth that you have found out.
But the main thing that happens to you is that feeling that universality; just start feeling in the sense (that) it becomes a part and parcel of your awareness. Just a part and parcel of your awareness. As a human being you have a special awareness for flowers, a special awareness for cleanliness. Animals don’t have. In the same way you go to the point where you just become aware of that you start feeling them around. You start feeling what is right and wrong. For example, if I start telling people, this is sin, then they will do it a hundred times. If I give them Realisation they will not just do it. They will se it. In the night, I am sleeping in this room and there is this snake up here and someone will say there is a snake and I say, no it’s not there. I can’t see it. But if you put on the light I’ll just know it’s a snake and I will run away from it.
Interviewer: How does one know what’s right and what’s wrong though ?
Shri Mataji: You see, because you have not found the Absolute that’s why there’s a problem. But if you have found the Absolute, you’ll just know it. But it is not knowledge by your rationality, but in your being. You just feel it on your fingers. You just know what is happening to another person. You start feeling it. Just feeling it is not good. You know something is not right in this house. There’s some centres catching on your fingers. You ask someone, you find there is something wrong.
Interviewer: You’re talking about feeling things now through the fingers, a part of the body. How did you come about this particular idea, it is through the fingers that one has this knowledge of oneself ?
Shri Mataji: I knew all these things beforehand. It is too (laughing) to say, … now, it is true, what to say now ? I knew this. This is My knowledge, as you say. I knew all this.
Interviewer: You feel You are sent here by God or, say, as the next prophet in line ?
Shri Mataji: I don’t want to say all that because I don’t want to get crucified for nothing at all. No, I am quite wise. But there is something special, no doubt, something very great, according to human beings. But for Me, it’s nothing great. It’s just the same. Say the sun gives you light. What’s so great about it ? It has light, so it gives you light. Supposing I have this power, yet I cannot do many things, I cannot even play My own radio. I am so hopelessly bad. But I knew Kundalini. I know how to do this work. There’s nothing to feel I am higher or lower. This is My job. I am here for that job, finished, that is all.
Interviewer: A lot of people in the last few years particularly have come up who have ideas along Your lines. A lot of yogas, a lot of yogis. People have got this misconception about yoga.
Shri Mataji: You see, yoga, in simple words, means union with God, with Spirit. All other things are nonsense. You see, you stand on your head, you do this thing. It’s a spontaneous process. It’s a living process of the living God. It has to happen within you, like the sprouting of the seed. Now, if you stand on your head, can you sprout a seed ? Can you turn a flower into a fruit; can you ? By doing some sort of exercise ? You see, this hatha yoga was practised in India thousands of years back when we had another system of life, where students were sent to the guru, to the teacher and the students lived with the teacher in the forest. And some students were selected and they were given this self-knowledge. But the first thing in the real Patanjali Yoga is you must have is Ishwar Pranidhan you must establish your God. If you have not established your God it is just people becoming actors and actresses, that is all. It is never so important. All these so called exercises are just like different corrections of your different centres, physical corrections, and they are to be used at a particular time (for) a particular trouble. If, you see, you have troubles, for example, of the neck, what is the use doing exercises for the stomach. But the way people do this hatha yoga these days is like taking the whole medicine box at the same time. By that, they thin down. And the thinning down they think is very healthy. And this thinning down is not correct because the kind of thinning down actually comes because they become dry people. Alright, you put attention because you are paying attention to your health. But health is not everything. They become very fidgety. They become very nervy. They may be very hot-tempered or they can be terrifying, you see. Or very big bores. They could divorce their wife, beat their children. All kinds of things they can do. We had such yogis in our India in ancient times. They curse people to make them die. Is this the way to achieve yoga ?
Interviewer: So this is misconception of yoga, or malpractice ?
Shri Mataji: No, this is not malpractice because, you see, I am a Mother. I will give them benefit of the doubt. They did not have the complete knowledge so they went on one side and another went on the other side. Like, you see, devotion dancing and singing in the name of God. They go mad with it. I have seen them go mad with it. That’s another extreme. One extreme of this side is to be a sort of fanatic or an erratic and other extremes start. But God is in-between. He’s not in extremes.
Interviewer: People, being what they are, tend to be distrustful and some people might say, well how are we to know She won’t rip us off or lead us down another blind path ?
Shri Mataji: Very true. I would be very happy if they would not trust people. If they are mesmerized they are. Very much . If anyone asks for money then they are much more for (money). There’s a competition. Recently we had somebody in India who has made 2 crores of rupees out of such people. It’s not that they do not trust but they are stupid. They have always doubted the people who are real and always trusted people who are unreal. They are being stupid about it.
There are certain things by which we can judge a person if he’s (real) or not. First and foremost thing is, you cannot sell God. You cannot make money out of God. You cannot sell your vibrations. You cannot sell these things. This is very precious. You cannot value it. It is invaluable. It is God’s love. So you cannot have a regular organised religion whereby you sell it in the marketplace. It is shameful and so insulting. It is so shameful. You do it because you love them. They are part and parcel of your being. That is why you just cure them because they are part and parcel of your being. You don’t say, if I cure this hand I’ll give a little relief, do I pay that hand ? Or do I feel any obligation. You just do it because they are part and parcel of your being so it has to be compassion. It cannot be money and all these things that are going around. People are more enamoured by these things.
And all the circuses will have the hypocrites and dress up in all kinds of dress. People are very impressed by that. You see, people care more for superficial things. If you, sort of, sit in a square and sit down in one loin cloth and the snow is falling, (they will say)/ “Oh, such a great saint has come.” What do we have to do with ascetics when we are living in a household. If they are ascetics we should not have anything to do with (them). We are householders and householders are the best people for Sahaja Yoga. And those who have run away from their lives, let them go to the Himalayas and station themselves. They have no reason to come and live like parasites on our earnings. They are parasites of the worst type. Dealing in opium, (using) other people’s money. That’s what they are. And they have no self-respect. Some of them are so cruel. They have made people so poor and they have taken away all the money. Not only that, there are smugglers, doesn’t matter. But they have put such spirits into people, they are falling of epilepsy. They have troubles, kidney trouble. They are having all kinds of trouble. These horrible people, they are Satanic.
Interviewer: You are devoting Yourself completely then to Your mission, mind, body and finances ?
Shri Mataji: You see, I would say that I’m only one person. I’m not heart and soul and all that, so whatever I do, I do the whole thing. I’m not separated. There’s no question. As far as finances are concerned I don’t need much finances. And My travelling and all that, mostly My husband should not pay for their salvation. It’s a bit too much. They will also become parasitic. Even that’s to be paid. It’s alright if they pay me for my travelling at the most. My needs are very little and by Gods grace, in this life I am not a carpenter’s wife. But I am a wife of a well-to-do gentleman. It’s alright.
Interviewer: You are now on Your mission to try to inform more of the world about Sahaja Yoga. How many followers do You have presently ?
Shri Mataji: I have no record. I have no record. I mean if you ask Me now, for example, this gentleman (points to a Sahaja Yogi), you met him here. I would never, says, I would never remember that he’s one of them or something because I don’t keep any record. You don’t count every leaf you give light. You just don’t do it. You just like to give it, that’s all; don’t count. For what are you going to count ? You don’t want to take anything so why count ? You take a person who just wants to give. Now these flowers are giving fragrance. Do they count how many people they have given fragrance ? (Anyone who comes) will take fragrance from them. Their job is to give fragrance so they are giving fragrance. It’s very simple.
Interviewer: Won’t You destroy some of that giving factor if you put Yourself on a pedestal, which is probably what You might be doing if You start to approach a wider audience, a larger group of people ?
Shri Mataji: I never think of these things. It always works out in such a way that I have managed so far. The other day we had a village of 6000 people and they all got Realisation. Just like lightening ! All of them. Can you believe it ? They all got Realisation ! So that’s not the thing. You see, think of this Divine Power that converts flowers into fruits. Now the flower of a mango will become a mango. How these things are worked out ? Into what details, how delicately ? How every character is preserved ? If I’m talking of that power, why should I ever (count) ?
Interviewer: This Divine Power, this God, why did He put us here ?
Shri Mataji: Oh, He loved you so much. That’s why He put us here. And in just a little transition you had to learn what is good and what is bad. That’s all just to make you grow a little, that’s all. In this you all got so frightened ! Its was nothing to be frightened. All He has given us is such a nice thing (but) you don’t want to see. We don’t want to see anything, you see, that’s the trouble.
Interviewer: But why even put us in such a situation ? Why not just create us like Himself, or Herself ?
Shri Mataji: Or whatever it is. The thing is you have to grow, isn’t it ? Now, it would be like a little bird (which) is born to the mother bird. Now the mother bird has to teach the little bird how to fly, isn’t it ? Now she makes it fly by calling the little bird. And the bird says, why not make me like that as you are ? Then how will you learn ? You have to master it. How will you do it ? Unless and until you learn yourself, I mean, one can cook for you and put it into your mouth but you have to taste it. It is for you to taste. If you don’t have any taste, how will you enjoy ? Just develop your taste buds that He has to make. You have to grow, is necessary.
Interviewer: What are we growing towards ?
Shri Mataji: You are going to be the lights of God. Beacons of light of God’s love that is going to flow in this world.
Interviewer: Are we eventually supposed to grow to be just like Him ?
Shri Mataji: Yes, very much. He’s made you in His image, of course, in His Collectivity and all that to become the ocean by not becoming the ocean, just falling into it.
Interviewer: How do we seem to grow, or do we really grow ? After all these years we haven’t learned very much about war.
Shri Mataji: War, I mean, whatever you say, we haven’t learned about war. What we haven’t learned, I mean, that’s a very good situation that man has reached, that he has not learned very much because if God has told you before that you haven’t learned anything you would not have believed it because you have freedom to decide. You haven’t learned much. Now, we haven’t learned, so now you settle down. That’s one of the styles of God, to make human beings learn otherwise they would not. If you had created an atom bomb, you would never have learned. What nonsense we have done by all our experimentation with science it means that it is like a Satan on your head. So you know what you have done to your self, so you come back. All these shocks are important otherwise you may never go to God, never think of it, because this freedom gives you ego and people become so ego-orientated. There are so many people who just don’t believe in God. They think it’s trash.
Interviewer: Are we going to have so much freedom that eventually we’ll destroy ourselves ?
Shri Mataji: No, we can never destroy. You see God’s creation. He has created you and He’s not the one who is going to destroy His own creation. You don’t do anything. You just don’t do anything. You see, this is the wrong impression human beings have got. What they do is a dead work. Now see, the flowers are dead so you have arranged them. The tree is dead so you have made the furniture, that is all. Dead to the dead. Any living work can you do ? Any living work ? Nothing. Only after Realisation you can do it, by awakening the kundalini. Then you can do it. Then you are entitled to become the master.
Interviewer: Then we can create things ?
Shri Mataji: Yes of course. You start creating. You start creating a new personality by raising the kundalini.
Interviewer: What is achieved once this awakening happens ? I mean, why are we better for it ?
Shri Mataji: You see like I told you we are like a light. Now when you are Enlightened what happens to you. You see the light. In the light you see yourself. All confusion is finished. You know the Truth, and you feel so blissful and happy because you know everything. There is no chaos, no nothing. You are so relaxed and the power starts flowing through you all the time. It is never lost and you see in that light whatever is good and whatever is bad. And you understand everything so well. And when you become the light, what do you do ? Is to give the light to others so that they should be Enlightened also. But this dead light cannot give light to others in such a way as that light can give to others. But you can, once you are Realised, you can make others Enlightened. The whole confusion of disintegration, quarrels and political problems and these economic problems and religion, everything will subside. Absolutely, when you are Enlightened. Human beings have to be Enlightened because they are in darkness. That’s why all these problems are there.
Interviewer: What the world as we know it cease to exist if we all become Enlightened in such a way ?
Shri Mataji: .. it will be flowering then. It would take another shape of beauty and enjoyment, happiness.
Interviewer: The heaven that is so talked about in religious books .. ?
Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s it. That’s promised is to be brought in. Everything they have said is to be proved. All that is the job Sahaja Yoga has to do. That’s why it is the Maha Yoga. It’s the great Yoga.
Interviewer: Now long is it going to take to get us there ?
Shri Mataji: You see it depends on human beings, how they work it out. That’s all. It’s for them to decide now. You see, they have to take a decision.
(recording ceases at that point)
H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi