Conversation on Islam

Montfermeil Ashram, Montfermeil (France)

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Conversation on Islam, Montfermeil ashram, Montfermeil (Paris), France, July 11th, 1994

Indians are ancient people; they travelled all over the world. They went to, even to England.
But the best part is the timing: six hours difference. And this six hours difference comes in with the exact timing in India and here. And another I will tell you, the way they give degrees to the studies, Bachelor of Arts. “Apne a brahmachary tatva”, masters of arts, Brahmins.
These are the things of ancient times, guru [?]
Dr Rustom Banjorjee: Like laureates.

Shri Mataji: You are surprising Me. Even in, near Peru or somewhere, there were mountains called Shiva, Vishnu.
Sahaja Yogi: I don’t know Shri Mataji.
Arnaud de Kalbermaten: Even in Bolivia.
Shri Mataji: Bolivia, what do you have?
Arnaud: In Bolivia, there are some ruins, Shri Mataji, which is unexplained and they think that the people came from a very far away country to build this ruin. And it was a city in the Altiplano.
Shri Mataji: What did they build?
Arnaud: It was all the city. It’s not the Maya it’s a city which is quite close to La Paz. Tiwanaku.
Shri Mataji: Best part of it, I’ll tell you, is that we went down to Bogota. And what is that port called? You have got a port in Bogota?
Sahaja Yogi: Cartafel?
Shri Mataji: Hum, Cartafel. So we went there and they were having a party, reception party. So I asked them: “Why do you have a condor, Garuda, as your emblem for name, why do you have a condor?” So one fellow- still they have some aboriginal people there, quite a lot. He told Me that: “Our forefathers told us that Shri Vishnu came from your country on a condor.” Now C.P. might say: “Go to a stand”, you know, I don’t know [unsure]. Really they told. And amazing he was; and then I made a little mistake, in a way. They said: “Mother these Americans are just torturing us and troubling us so much and they are taking our wheat at a very low price and we don’t make any profit. We don’t know how to exist in Bogota. So can you bless us with something that we can also exploit them? And they got the cocaine. My Goodness!
Rustom Banjorjee: But maybe that was not your blessing Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, I’d rather say. [Laughter]
It’s a destructive force of that thing.
Rustom Banjorjee: But actually, Shri Mataji, in the old days, in the 19 century, Coca-Cola used to contain cocaine.
Shri Mataji: I know, I know.
Rustom Banjorjee: And the women used to drink it and it didn’t harm them.
Shri Mataji: I don’t know but I could never take Coca-Cola once upon a time.
Never could touch it. Then somebody said that now: “You‘ll like it.” I said: “Why?” He said: “There was cocaine in it before.” So I said:” All right, I taste. Now I can drink it.
[Inaudible] doesn’t harm because this – because we have got this “avidya” now. In winter, it doesn’t harm these people because it is very cold and they eat it and they feel alright.
Rustom Banjorjee: This is right.
Shri Mataji: It’s adjustable.
Rustom Banjorjee: But they eat the leaves.
Shri Mataji: Then they can adjust themselves to this climate. Not meant for Americans.
Whatever goes in one country like if you go to the Himalayas, there’s one Yak, it’s a big animal, it’s very big what you call, hair. Now if you make a coat of that and give it to a South Indian, what will happen to him?

So, so this “Kaaba”, Kaaba [Black stone in Mecca].
Now we should try to understand this Kaaba. Now, if it is Makeshwar Shiva, if it is Shiva, then sooner or later, we’ll reach it by the end of their wanting road as he enlightens the road, those who do not even believe in the uniqueness of God. Uniqueness of God.
Rustom Banjorjee: What he is trying to say Shri Mataji-
Shri Mataji: It’s time to say that those who believe
Rustom Banjorjee: In one God.
Shri Mataji: In one God,
Rustom Banjorjee: Monotheist, yes.
Shri Mataji: They will reach first, is not possible.
Rustom Banjorjee: It’s not that they will reach first, but that they will all reach.
Shri Mataji: No, no, ultimately, they will all reach. But those who claim themselves as monotheist are indeed like government that are equipping their own ways and through different paths. This is a wrong idea.
Rustom Banjorjee: The idea that it is inevitable.
Shri Mataji: For two things, you see, most important thing for a religious life is “zila” character, “zila” [or śīla], means morality, which is preached by Buddha, is that at first, you must have a pure character. Those people who follow widely one God, openly, are these three [religions]. What they lack is morality. Though they will be the last to reach, to be very frank, unless and until they get transformation. Because, say, I’m saying it today, you can find out also, there are two genes which are protective in us, which have got protection against the sin against the Mother and sin against the Father, so they protect us. And, say, India, Indians have these still intact not to most of Indians but I am just saying “dharmanga” [whose body is the law]. But otherwise, these genes have gone into mutations everywhere. So they are immoral, I mean Indian’s ego take, I think, ten thousand years to take to something nonsensical, like this, their child abuse.
Rustom Banjorjee: This is unbelievable.
Shri Mataji: I mean you can’t think [inaudible]
C.P. asks Me: “What do they do?” I say: “Do I know what do they do?”
I don’t know what they do, and what is- as soon as you see the child, you develop a feeling of what’s Hell.
Rustom Banjorjee: I feel see what has happened now Shri Mataji, it has reached such a degree that even people who are innocent in their hearts are afraid to hold children because someone would say they are abusing them.
You told us this story once about this woman in America who came to you and said she is afraid to kiss her own son.
Shri Mataji: Ha.
Rustom Banjorjee: Small boy.
Shri Mataji: She would not even hug him and kiss him.
Rustom Banjorjee: Because people would say-
Shri Mataji: But I can understand because you see there they follow Freud. But what about Muslims? And what about Jews? Jews follow Freud because he was Freud. But Muslims? They rape women they do all kind of violence why do they do it? But poor women how Muslim are maintaining. I don’t know how they live with men there. But at least they are dharmic.

Rustom Banjorjee: How did they, Shri Mataji, if they form very close relationships among themselves, the women. Yes and they protect each other. Once, I was in the hospital in Arabia Shri Mataji, in the women’s ward, and all the women were sitting, talking to each other and they were all laughing about their husband: “Oh he’s like this, this one is like this, he thinks he is like this” and they all have a party and they laugh at their husband and that’s how they protect themselves, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: But they are doing this with their husband and their [inaudible]?
Rustom Banjorjee: No, they just bare it, like.
Shri Mataji: I don’t know if I told you my experience. I was once going to this place, what’s that, it’s a, that place was actually Daulatabad [Maharastra] where our car stopped. Daulatabad, Daulat, but little further on. I don’t know the way where we were going, Mashwari or something.
On the way, it stopped where there was a little pipe of water. And I saw only Muslim ladies and children so poor, so poor. I mean in India, I’ve not seen such poor people as they were. And they were wearing all torned saris and children were all naked. Ameshwari is the name. And such a dirty, filthy appearance of everyone there. The hair was not washed or anything.
So I got down and I had such feeling for them, and I got down and asked: “What the matter with you? Why are you living here? Why have you come all the way?” They said: “What we are living? We are just living like a beg gipsies here, all the women.” “And who are these children?” They said: “A lady had eight children from one husband. Another lady who remarried had seven children. Another one has six children. All the children of this man are there. They say: “Talaq, talaq, talaq [repudiation]” And I said: “You didn’t get your “meher” [dower]? Meher was something, hundred rupees. What is it? And so many of them were there, I can’t understand such human tragedy.
Rustom Banjorjee: It’s very common there.
Shri Mataji: They treat their women so badly.
Rustom Banjorjee: And their children. And one of my patients was the son of one of their kings. And I asked him. And how did you get on with your father? He told me: “I never saw my father in my whole life.”
Shri Mataji: Why?
Rustom Banjorjee: He just ignored his son, the father has no interest. He had produced the child, divorced the mother, marry someone else, produced a child, divorced- he would divorce before they gave birth to their children, he would never see his own children.

Shri Mataji: This, I’ve seen Myself. So as he says that it’s not written in Koran that you ill-treat your wife. And talaq, in between one talaq and another talaq, there should be some time.
I was thinking why Muhammad Sahib would do that for a talaq on women.

Rustom Banjorjee: Also it is written Shri Mataji all the things that is allowed.
Shri Mataji: He?
Rustom Banjorjee: It is written of all the things that is allowed to human beings. The one that God hates the most is divorce.
Shri Mataji: Acha.
Rustom Banjorjee: Yes it is written in the Koran.
Said Ait Chalal: It’s an injustice.
Rustom Banjorjee: Yes. This divorce is only being used when it is impossible for a man and woman to stay together.
Said Ait Chalal: Or if there is a serious reason.
But Mother, the women are responsible in a way for their status, because they are accepting anything and so the men are taking advantage of the thing.
Rustom Banjorjee: Actually Shri Mataji, the women are more conservative. In Omar, when I was teaching-
Shri Mataji: Hum, they are.
Rustom Banjorjee: The people who were against me were the women. Not all of them but some of them.
Shri Mataji: Now in Bangladesh, these new women have started and all the women have come up with the protest. But there are also some women who came out to say that: “You kill this writer who is spreading all these things.” But there, they had suspicion on a woman that she was having relation with another one, they buried her in the thing halfway and hit her with stones and then, [inaudible] three cases like that.
Rustom Banjorjee: They kill them, they hit them with stones until they die.
Shri Mataji: Now, what I am saying, these people talk of everything. They say that there is aggression of the- say, Hindus or the Christians or whatever. About that they protest. But when in your own community such cruelty is going on, why don’t you talk against it?
Said Ait Chalal: People are afraid to talk about that.
Shri Mataji: What I am saying, they should talk that they are your mothers, they are your sisters, they are your daughters.
Rustom Banjorjee: But Shri Mataji, words don’t have the same meaning in those countries. A mother or a sister or a daughter is like a servant. She’s not important. She is there to be used, especially your sister or your daughter. She’s there to marry the man you want. She’s there to do what you tell her. There’s no relationship.
Shri Mataji: But not in Koran.
Said Ait Chalal: No, it’s not. They are justifying that by Koran but in Koran, it’s not said.
Shri Mataji: Where is the thing written down?
Rustom Banjorjee: It’s not written.
Said Ait Chalal: It’s not written but they say they pretend that Koran says that woman is inferior and they should submit to the man.
Shri Mataji: Acha?
Rustom Banjorjee: But in the Koran, it is written that a woman‘s brain is not as good as a man’s brain.
Shri Mataji: But heart is better.
But Muhammad Sahib used to listen to his wife, to his daughter. If it was so, why did he not kill his wife or his daughter any time?
Rustom Banjorjee: Muhammad Sahib was very attached to womanship [womanhood].
The thing about him, Shri Mataji, is he was only active for about fifteen years.

Shri Mataji: There is one thing I’ll tell you. Now, what difference I find, that, you see, in the South India, I mean, below the river Narmada, they respect their wives, they love their children, they love their daughters, women have a position. Because in Sanskrit is written: “Yatra naryastu pujyante tatra ramante devatah” “where the woman is respectable and respected, there remain the Gods.”
But in the North, where there are Islamic rules, Punjab, U. P. [Uttar Pradesh], Bihar, Bengal, Odissa [unsure], all these places you find is just like Muslim- not like Muslim it is impossible! But still, position of women, is bad. But there are women who are, either will be dominating or absolutely suppressed. Indira Gandhi comes from the same religion. So you can imagine. And also, normally I’ve seen now in my own family, in my husband’s family, women have no position as such.
But the Hindu fought it so much that now they have equal rights in the property. When the daughter is married she is given the equal part of the thing. Every reform has been made in Hindu marriages. But nothing in the Islam because we are using the Shariat in India. Why should they?
Said Ait Chalal: Because they are giving a religious significance to these rules. And so they say: “You cannot change them.” You know, women will have half part of the heritage if there is a boy. Boy gets two parts and the woman one part. It’s always half of a man. Because they say it’s religious, you cannot change anything that is religious, which is completely stupid.
Shri Mataji: Is it in Koran to give half?
Said Ait Chalal: Oh yes, yes. Men are not, have the double of a sister for example.
Shri Mataji: Now what I am trying to tell you that in India, stupid ladies, Nehru dynasty, accepted the Muslim laws for India, for the Muslims. You see, it’s nowhere, in India, if you are there, you have to follow English, whether you are Muslim, Hindu, Christian.
Rustom Banjorjee: Yes, here Shri Mataji, even in Pakistan, by law, you cannot marry more than one wife.
Shri Mataji: By law?
Rustom Banjorjee: Yes, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Really?
Rustom Banjorjee: That’s what they told me. I asked one Pakistanis, I said why-
Shri Mataji: They marry.
Rustom Banjorjee: They marry, yes.

Shri Mataji: Now one thing is their part, you see, we should go to the practice of the religion. In the practice of the religion, what happens? That- I’ll give you the one example very important; I was once coming from Ryad to London in a Ryad Air aeroplane. And I went off to sleep, you see. When I got up, I saw very smart men with the Burda and this and that, smocking, and the women dressed up in half-skirts. I said: “Where did we stop?” [Laughter]
I tell you, I asked the lady: “Where did we stop in between airport?” She said: “Nowhere” “We didn’t stop anywhere? Then how these people have come?” “You see, they are the same.” [Laughter]
So that means all this force doesn’t create any change but hypocrisy.

Rustom Banjorjee: I used to see it Shri Mataji when I used to fly. Just after the plane would take off or just before it came to land, there would be a big rush to the toilette to change the clothes.
Shri Mataji: Apart from that, if you happen to see the way they drink, ??. Drink like Hell in England.
Rustom Banjorjee: Oh, yes, like a fish, Shri Mataji. Not only in England, in their own country.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Rustom Banjorjee: Even in Oman, alcoholism is very common.
Said Ait Chalal: In a private.
Rustom Banjorjee: In a private circle. When people used to visit me, the first thing they’d say: “Do you have any alcohol?”
Shri Mataji: So, what this gentleman can do is to divert the attention of the fundamentalists to their own force by putting Koran at the top and Muhammad Sahib right on top and showing what are we doing? Just by spreading Islam, you’re not going to get the real people.
If he could have that much courage I’ll give him marks.
Rustom Banjorjee: But even that, Shri Mataji, they can kill him for.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Rustom Banjorjee: You don’t know these people. Look at Salman Rushdie, he just wrote some silly book and they want to kill him.
Shri Mataji: I think he too is- I gave him Realization
Rustom Banjorjee: Salman Rushdie, he came to see You.
Shri Mataji: Salman Rushdie! God bless one. I don’t like him because he said against Muhammad Sahib. That I can’t bear. Who is he to talk of Muhammad Sahib? What does he know about spirituality? On that point, I will not give him any marks. Whatever is happening is good for him. But I don’t think that somebody should kill somebody for that. But in India, they write so much against Rama, Krishna, this, that, about everybody about Christ also they write.
Say, if you see in Europe, especially in England, they say that Christ was homosexual. Now, what do you say to that?
Rustom Banjorjee: What was the evidence Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Rustom Banjorjee: What evidence?
Shri Mataji: Because he never married.
Said Ait Chalal: Lots of people don’t marry.
Shri Mataji: They can’t think of a person who can live without marriage.
All right.
So that is one thing which is definite that if you are talking about understanding, you see, what could they do better than granting themselves with mutual understanding, without which any peaceful coexistence is hopeless? He’s aiming at something that doesn’t exist.
Said Ait Chalal: Just compromise, Mother.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Said Ait Chalal: He is looking for a compromise.
Shri Mataji: For compromise-
Said Ait Chalal: “Don’t attack me, I won’t attack you.” This not religion.
Antonio: It’s lack of courage. You do whatever you want, I do whatever I want, I don’t disturb you and you don’t disturb me.
Sahaja Yogi: They all do the same.

Shri Mataji: Now, all right. I am also willing to do looking for compromise.
Firstly, they will never even compromise, maybe on some points. But whatever defects they have in the name of God, who is going to cure that?
This I tell you, this is a typical human character. It’s absolutely typical.

You see, now, supposing, there are Sahaja Yogis, two types: some are identified with Me and some are identified with others. They want more Sahaja Yogis to come, more Sahaja Yogis to come, whatever may be compromised, it’s all right, they are here someway or other, inside the [full?], it’s all right, we’ll manage. They are like that. I’ve seen it. They’ll be identified with, all right, how many Italians are coming? The Italians will be happy. How many French are coming? They’ll be happy. How many these things are coming? They’ll be happy. How much are they identified with Mother? They don’t say.
Said Ait Chalal: Quality.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Said Ait Chalal: Quality.
Shri Mataji: Why? Because you see, they get a position. They get a position. [Hindi] They get a position that they are leaders, you see, “you’re something, you know”, something like that. So they are more identified with that. And they never tell what’s wrong with the other people, never, because they are afraid to lose their popularity. It is typical that type, don’t you think so?
Antonio: Exactly Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: You see, it’s more of these monotheists; the prophets of Islam spend all this energy in this way. In the presentation of the saints Commandments, He always insisted in presenting monotheist religions as the truth beyond doubts, without any taint or defect. Why?
Why Muhammad Sahib did it? Because before Him there were people who were worshipping all some sort of barren gods and things like that. It was just wit. So He had to put juxtaposition of that.
But I would not say Sahaja Yoga will prohibit even people who are atheists, no. Atheists are better than theists like Russians. They don’t even believe in God. You see, on the contrary, those who believe in one God or believe in this and believe in that, are really conditioning because it’s not a pure knowledge, it’s just a – because you are born as a Muslim, you are Muslim. It’s not a reality for them.

Said Ait Chalal: Mother, it’s worse in Islam. When you are born in an Islamic family, you cannot leave Islam. If you leave it, you are killed. You become an apostate.
Sahaja Yogi: This is so frightening.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes, it is. [Speaking in French]. Tu ne peux pas changer de religion tu es là.
Shri Mataji: It’s true I tell you-
Sahaja Yogi (Michel Cernay): As a result of that, the Catholics, for instance, cannot make missions in Islamic countries.
Shri Mataji: Catholic also do the same?
Michel Cernay: No. They cannot convert people in Islamic countries. For instance, they cannot build churches in Egypt where there are Copts people.
Shri Mataji: But how do you call, churches?
Michel Cernay: In Egypt, they cannot build new churches, because that means that they are going to be more in numbers and that means that some Muslims have left their religion to become Christians. And this is prohibited.
Shri Mataji: So you don’t want to have Muslims.
Michel Cernay: So they don’t, they are, they don’t have a religious right to express themselves and try to convert people.
Another Sahaja Yogi: Because for them the only true religion is Islam and other religions cannot come and explain.
Shri Mataji: Why is he saying about Catholic is the same?
Michel Cernay: No Shri Mataji. They forbid to the Catholics to try to convert people to Catholicism.
Antonio: But in the Koran, the Prophet-
Michel Cernay: It’s a law
Antonio: was recognizing the Christ. It’s written down.
[Sahaja Yogis talking at the same time]
Shri Mataji: If you are born as a Catholic.
Michel Cernay: If you are born as a Catholic
[Sahaja Yogis talking at the same time]
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible] they converted in India?
How did they-
[Sahaja Yogis talking at the same time]
Shri Mataji: They converted all the people all over the world these Catholics, what are they talking about?
Said Ait Chalal: Yes but the reverse is forbidden.
Shri Mataji: Acha. [Hindi] I did not know this. Reverse is not allowed.
Rustum Burjolee: Even Shri Mataji, in South Arabia, you can’t even have a Christmas tree in your window, if they see it they get upset.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes because it is a symbol of religion.
Sahaja Yogi (Prakash): My Goodness it’s terrible.
Arnaud: This is for me- I’m stunned Shri Mataji. I’m stunned Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: Catholics are, if you are a Catholic you cannot get out of it.
Michel Cernay: No, Shri Mataji, I’m sorry, it’s the opposite. If you are a Muslim you cannot leave Islam. So that means that in the Muslim countries, it is prohibited to any Christians, Protestants, or any Christian-
Shri Mataji: All right.
Michel Cernay: To try to convert Muslims into Christians.
Shri Mataji: Acha. [Hindi] Now, what about the Christians Catholics?
Rustum Burjolee: They can be converted.
Shri Mataji: You can leave them.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes.
Shri Mataji: How many-
Michel Cernay: Those who are born in a Jewish family or in a Catholic family can keep up with their religions.
Shri Mataji: But supposing Muslims-
Michel Cernay: or they can
Shri Mataji: Muslims leave, then what do they do?
Rustum Burjolee: They kill them.
Michel Cernay: They kill them, it’s prohibited.
Said Ait Chalal: He cannot leave Islam.
Shri Mataji: That’s why I understand this man.
Rustum Burjolee: That’s why they have this Fatwa against Salman Rushdie. If I wrote that, they cannot kill me because I’m not a Muslim. But because he is a Muslim and he wrote it, it means he is giving up the religion, that’s why they have a right to kill him. That’s the legal basis of a Fatwa Shri Mataji.

Arnaud: Every thing is based on hatred.
[Sahaja Yogis talking at the same time]
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible, Sahaja Yogi speaking at the time. Shri Mataji speaks in Hindi to Rustum]
Shri Mataji: Bakhgiar?
Rustum Burjolee: Bakhtiar.
Shri Mataji: Bakhtiar!
Rustum Burjolee: In Paris, in France.
Antonio: He was killed here.
Said Ait Chalal: The Prime minister of Iran. The former Prime minister.
Shri Mataji: He was killed here.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes in Paris.
Another Shri Mataji: He wrote all these books?
Sahaja Yogi: No, no, no, no. He was Prime minister of Iran. He was the first Prime minister of Iran after Khomeini.
Antonio: During Bani Sadr. When Bani Sadr was President he was the First minister.
Shri Mataji: No, no. But, the one who was the writer-
Antonio: Salman Rushdie?
Shri Mataji: I’ve read a book.
Antonio: Salman Rushdie?
Rustum Burjolee: No, no, not him.
Shri Mataji: Who has written only, who is a Shia has written a book on Islam. Very, very nice book he has written, he’s a Shia.
Rustum Burjolee: I don’t know this one Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: No? Something like, name like this only.
Said Ait Chalal: There is a woman also in Bangladesh
Shri Mataji: Ah.
Said Ait Chalal: Doctor Nusrin.
Shri Mataji: She is with the American embassy now.
Sahaja Yogi: Ah, she lives! Ah, finally. So she is safe now. Cause I saw a film, a report on her. She is so courageous this woman. Really, that’s a woman!
Shri Mataji: They are saying that the Americans gave her a bribe.

Rustum Burjolee: Shri Mataji if they want to give bride they can take any number of people and bride them, they would be very happy to take it.
Said Ait Chalal: Especially in Bangladesh.

Shri Mataji: The Prophet of Islam spent all his energy in this way. In the presentation of the saints Commandments, he always insisted in presenting monotheist religion as the truth beyond doubts, without any faint, tint or defect. Therefore, in his presentation of Moses’ piety, Abraham’s faith and [?] and Jesus Christ piety, holiness and charity, Allah’s Spirit- that He is the Spirit- so that He is different difference.
Rustum Burjolee: It takes different forms.
Shri Mataji: God, you see, is expressed in Moses’ piety, Abraham’s faith, Jesus’ piety, holiness and charity, Allah’s Spirit.
As well as other prophets sent by God, He showed more ardour than their own followers, this is the point.
This he should also do.
If one believes in the principles of historical evolution, and if one considers prophets as genuine messengers of God, one has to conceive the prophet’s mission as one of the real criteria of spiritual evolution and one has to try to guide the monotheists’ world towards this great, monotheists must come towards this great goal. How can we reach it? Try!

Rustum Burjolee: Shri Mataji, what does he think you are? I mean this chap Ruhani.
Shri Mataji: Might be thinking at the most, prophet starter or something.
Antonio: Now he is recognizing that Shri Mataji is bringing a message that is of the same calibre of the Prophet’s one, but he is still far from recognizing Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: What does he-
Rustum Burjolee: Same calibre and same level?
Antonio: Same level, yes. He recognizes your message that is what he says at the beginning: “Your message is the same as the Prophet was.” So he recognizes You for that and he would like to be with You.
Shri Mataji: Ah.
Antonio: But he doesn’t recognize You as the incarnation of God Almighty.
Shri Mataji: You know, they told him that we believe that She is the Grand Imam who is going to give Realization. Because he was telling them the twelve Imam has- what qualities you tell Me?
Antonio: The first is that about making some miracles.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Antonio: Making miracles?
Shri Mataji: Making miracles.
Antonio: Yes and curing and also then he told me that he was not learned, he has no- he couldn’t write, he couldn’t read and although he couldn’t write and read, his own message was spread all over the world in a very short time.
And so the point for him is that if a message is true then it spreads all over the world in a very quick manner [way].
Shri Mataji: Not necessarily. What does he think of Hitler?
Antonio: I didn’t ask him Shri Mataji. I didn’t ask him t all.
Shri Mataji: Hatred spreads faster than anything else. That’s what human beings are.
Antonio: And for him the prophet himself was not divine.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Antonio: According to Koran, prophet Mohamed was not divine. He was just a man who could capture some divine message.
Shri Mataji: Like a loud speaker.
Antonio: Yes, somewhere [something] like that.
Shri Mataji: Just imagine! Now to say such a thing, I mean to accept it. He was telling lies because I have to also tell lies because you want to protect yourself. If you say you are divine, the way they are hunting out good people, they would have finished him long time; as it is, they did.

He was divine that’s all I’ll challenge.

Shri Mataji: How is he going to do? I don’t know. “If he admits that borns [unsure] different forms of fanaticism so and so and political reflections prevent us from achieving this full and acute union, should we not at least- all the time he comes to the “at least”- out of this link try to create a rare forming and bringing together a unique and powerful – for which one if this?- of installing an universal peace-
Arnaud: Bla, bla, bla-
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible] in this troubled world [inaudible]
Arnaud: This is bla, bla, bla
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Arnaud: The great bla, bla, bla
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible] Bla, blan, bla I can’t- [inaudible]
Michel Cernay: It’s kind of a Red Cross
Praksh: He doesn’t connect to Sahaja Yoga Shri Mataji. I don’t think at all. He doesn’t see that it’s the power of Sahaja Yoga which is acting in this way.
Antonio: He didn’t see Sahaja Yoga.
Shri Mataji: No, I think-
Antonio: He just saw You and he likes You very much but he didn’t see the all the power.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Antonio: He just sees You Shri Mataji. He didn’t see Sahaja Yoga. He didn’t see the power that is behind You. This, he didn’t see. Just see You and your message. He likes it.
Rustum Burjolee: That’s enough.
Shri Mataji: He has to go deep down.
Said Ait Chalal: But still, Mother, he is talking about prophet. These prophets have an implication over the population.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Said Ait Chalal: He is limiting these two prophets, only two people who have a message. That means that they are talking about the whole world without having an effect on the world.
Shri Mataji: No, no. You see what he is saying, we should try, this is the Prophet, you see. Now Prophet is here, here are the people who don’t understand Prophet. So by accepting Prophet and his true type, by understanding him, he wants to create mutual understanding between different religious, which is not so bad.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes but how to make the people understand the Prophet?
Shri Mataji: How to?
Said Ait Chalal: Yes but how to make the people understand the Prophet?
Which is the technique to understand, you know? Is it because somebody comes: this is a Prophet you have to follow him. People are going-
Shri Mataji: How will they found?
Said Ait Chalal: This is the question I’m asking.

Antonio: But you see, Said, the point is that in Koran, it is written somewhere that if somebody is not against it, then he’s safe. There’s something written like that.
Said Ait Chalal: Is not against?
Antonio: If people is not against Koran then he’s safe. So I think that the idea of this Ruhani is to bring people to Islam in such a way that they don’t practice Islam but they are not against it. So in his mind, he is bringing people to Islam.
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible] he comes now, after see what they are doing.
Antonio: But that’s the way
Said Ait Chalal: [Inaudible] They stick minimum to Islam
Michel Cernay: They stick minimum because he is not making an effort. Because Jesus, Moses, all of them are in the Koran.
[Sahaja Yogis talking at the same time]
He has the official authorization because they are in the Koran.
Shri Mataji: Yes. Now what is he trying to do, that I don’t understand. It would be impossible to follow Islam by other people. You see, other people who are truthful, you see? Because they see what defects it has given. See the truthful people will not now believe blindly in Islam.
Said Ait Chalal: Even Islamic people are not feeling with blind [?] that’s the trouble.
Shri Mataji: Ah! Blindly, all right.
And if the Christians are saying – I can’t imagine Christians saying that also – they will never believe in Islam.

Somehow, you know, these mediocre [unsure] get quite powerful because you know they are [?] I like [?] that’s true, I like. But still, I mean, how far it’s gone. So many were killed and this and that, there was no need. This was also done by English, you see, because they made all these plans.
Said Ait Chalal: The Jews.
Shri Mataji: Why didn’t they get them in England?
Now England is a barren country. What is the problem of Palestinians [?] in England?
Rustum Burjolee: Fifty millions.
Shri Mataji: Only?
Rustum Burjolee: Less than France
Shri Mataji: Why not get them in France?
Rustum Burjolee: They have Jews.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Antonio: Sews? Sorry? Jews, quite a lot.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, not the Jews, Musulmans.
Arnaud: No, Palestinians.
Antonio: Muslims.
Rustum Burjolee: Oh, Palestinians!
Arnaud: Palestinians You mean Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: What I say, you must take a country which has less population and put Palestinians there. Like, ours is such an overpopulated country and they have put this Lama on our head. Why not? Send him to Japan.
This I can’t understand why put some people on a country which is already overpopulated, which is poor. So why not put Palestinians in France? I think France, we came all the way, hardly one or two stations, such a long distance you see. They can be fitted anywhere. If you think that the world is one, then only! If you think world is one, then wherever there is- Germany is the minus in population. Not now, it used to be. England is minus in population, as far as the English are concerned, and Americans are dying fast. So put them somewhere like that, would be better I think.
Prakash: It’s the contrary they are doing Sri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Prakash: They are doing the contrary actually, closing everything.
Shri Mataji: Of course. That’s the trouble. Why don’t they adjust Palestinians in France?
Antonio: Pasqua will collapse Mother.
Antonio: Pasqua will collapse, this would be a very good idea. [Laughter]
Rustum Burjolee: Actually, the Palestinians are very good people.
Shri Mataji: Palestinians.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes, the ones I’ve known have been very good Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: You know, when they gave Me this peace award in the university, these boys offer to dance before Me. And they danced very well.
Rustum Burjolee: They are very good people, very strong heart Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: And Indians are poor things, you know, looking after quite a lot of them, and they are giving them education fees, this free, everything, and how can we afford it in our country?
Rustum Burjolee: In Pune, they are a lot, in Calcutta they are a lot.
Shri Mataji: Lots. But in Dehli, Dehli is full of them. Most of the students are in India.
Rustum Burjolee: In fact, one of the few countries that has a flight to Calcutta-
[Cut in the audio]

Shri Mataji: …Whether if you know bhakti.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes. It’s a [inaudible]
Shri Mataji: And I think they are the best as far as the character is concerned.
Rustum Burjolee: So they are very good people Shri Mataji. Excellent.
Shri Mataji: With Muslims, Indians are afraid of, you see, keep a driver, he’ll run away with your daughter or something like that. But that is one thing with Palestinian, they are found to be very good character, it’s surprising.
Said Ait Chalal: They are very open too.
Shri Mataji: Hum? They are very open
Said Ait Chalal: Very open. And when they get education, they are very good-
Shri Mataji: I would like to meet Arafat, that’s all. But he will be the same.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes, they are all the same. If we can give him Realization, we’ll have an effect Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji [Shri Mataji seems to read the letter]: “Whereas almost all monotheist religions ignore this identity or any similarity in their precept. Why?”
Rustum Burjolee: I don’t understand what he is saying Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: He is saying that these religions, all monotheists, again he is taking them out, religions ignore this identity, this identity that we are one.
Rustum Burjolee: Cause they’re all fighting with each other Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji [reading]: In our humble opinion, all the revealed religions have common Commandments and precepts, this knowledge can only the God of bringing together. They’ll have conferences, meetings, discussions, arguments-
Said Ait Chalal: Yes, that’s it.
Rustum Burjolee: Good way to spend money Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: But he has no money, he says.
Antonio: No, he has no money. He’s short of money. I mean he has enough to live every day but not for extra expenses.
Rustum Burjolee: But what it is Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji [Shri Mataji is reading the letter]: I’ll, “this should be think that common, we have common Commandments and precepts”, all right. “Whereas almost all monotheist religions – he’s stuck on monotheist religions- ignore this identity or any similarity in their precept, therefore not only do they miss this common thought, but in many historical occasions, they fight each other like real enemies.”
But what about Muslims? They fight among themselves.

Rustum Burjolee: Fatwa business. Once a Muslim thinks you are not a good Muslim, he can write a fatwa and say: “kill him.”
Said Ait Chalal: True.
Shri Mataji: Any individual can do that?
Said Ait Chalal: Individuals no, imams. The ones who are supposed to be versed in a –
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible]
Rustum Burjolee: In theory, Shri Mataji, any individual can do it.
Listen to me [to a Sahaja Yogi]: There is nothing in the Koran that talks of Imam or anything.
Shri Mataji: Fatwa is written in Koran?
Rustum Burjolee: Ne, ne. Not at all. But any –this is all after Mohamed.
Shri Mataji: [Hindi] Fatwa.
Rustum Burjolee: Fatwa came, I think, after Mohaya Nodi when they started having schools of Islamic religion.
Shri Mataji: Nowadays, it has to come through some- what you call- someone in charge.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Now.
Rustum Burjolee: It’s no true Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Then we can say, something, you want to do. Then you send it to the Imam and he passes it on.
Rustum Burjolee: But if you say: “I’m an Imam”, then finished! There is official-
Antonio: Anyone can be an Imam.
Michel Cernay: There is no official priest.
Rustum Burjolee: There is no official Imam, anyone can be an Imam. Just say, if all these people decide I am the Imam, I am Imam.
Said Ait Chalal: Now, they call that Olama, the people who have knowledge.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes but how do you define knowledge.
Said Ait Chalal: And these people could take these Fatwas which are decisions to be implemented.

Shri Mataji: In fact, I’ll tell you what. What about these “mutawwa”?
Said Ait Chalal: Mutawwas?
Rustum Burjolee: He doesn’t know about them Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Like police.
Said Ait Chalal: This religious police? They are spies, you know, they are spying on people.
Shri Mataji: They are, most are educated.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes.
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible]
Said Ait Chalal: Yes. In Saudi Arabia they are very powerful.
Shri Mataji: They come in, you see, you are supposed to do five times “salah”[prayer] and five times they close. And if you are in the market, you are supposed to sit down in one place, cover your head, if you are not a Muslim.
Said Ait Chalal: In 77 Mother, I have been offered a high position in the Islamic bank in Jeda. So I said I accept, but I have to come for 15 days and see and they give you the answer. At the time of prayer, at one o’clock, everybody goes to the Mosque. While I was there, I had a work to do, I didn’t want to go to the Mullah and someone came [he knock on the table] “Prayer time”. First time I didn’t say anything.
Shri Mataji: It’s like a criminal –
Said Ait Chalal: Second time, I just let him knock. The third time, I opened the door and said: “What do you want?” He said: “Prayer time.” I said: “Well, prayer is between me and God.”
Shri Mataji: That’s what they say.
Said Ait Chalal: and you want I make now-
Shri Mataji: That you go to the house-
Said Ait Chalal: That you will recognize somebody who is ? to God. So if next time, you knock at my door, I knock your head out.
Shri Mataji: Then?
Said Ait Chalal: And since, for 14 days, he didn’t come. Until I left, I didn’t like the job.
Shri Mataji: Horrible!
Horrible place. But whatever it is, that Jeda as you were staying, Jeda, what I feel is that’s a rule of dictators. Complete dictation. There is no freedom of thought nothing, you have to accept, you have to accept like that.
Said Ait Chalal: Submit.
Shri Mataji: Yes. And that is given by these mutawwas. I’m so surprised. I would even keep them as servants in my house, so filthy, so dirty and brainless.
Rustum Burjolee: This is the point, Shri Mataji. Anyone can claim to be Olama or Imam or what you are. There is no certificate, anybody can say, “ok I am this”. And then anybody can write a fatwa. And I saw this in South Arabia.
Shri Mataji: Ne, ne, but what I’m saying, this fatwa, have they got a central government or something?
Rustum Burjolee: Ne, ne. This is the point, Shri Mataji. Anybody can do it.
Shri Mataji: No, no. But they don’t have any central person?
Rustum Burjolee: No, no.
Said Ait Chalal: No, there is no central but you have some people who are- [in French, “c’est des savants”]
Sahaja Yogis: Learned.
Said Ait Chalal: Learned people.
Shri Mataji: Supposing they pass a fatwa, what I’m saying, [Inaudible]
Supposing you pass a fatwa, Imam or anyone, then, who goes and kills?
Sahaja Yogis: Anybody.
Rustum Burjolee: Anybody can go.
Said Ait Chalal: Anybody is allowed to.
Rustum Burjolee: You see what you do, you issue a fatwa-
Shri Mataji: Fatwa means general allowance.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes, like supposing I think that Antonio is not a good Muslim by my opinion. I will write a fatwa. Anybody who believes me accepts my fatwa, he will try and kill Antonio, anybody can do it.
Said Ait Chalal: No, I don’t agree with you. No, no. It’s not anybody, that would be very-
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible].
Rustum Burjolee: Yes but look at Salman Rushdie, Shri Mataji.
Said Ait Chalal: It’s Khomeini.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes, in this case it was Khomeini. But anybody, supposing, it has happened like this, Shri Mataji, in small towns, in small villages. Someone will say “ok I’m Imam, I’m Olama” because in Islam there is no definition of what is Imam –
Shri Mataji: Now what I’m trying to tell you is that it is varying from places to places.
Rustum Burjolee: Of course, completely.
Shri Mataji: But [?] this kind of things, “atme basi” they call it.
Prakash: It was from the village that it comes.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Prakash: It was in the village.
Said Ait Chalal: Before fatwas were just ignored. Nobody was talking about fatwas. It’s very seldom that you hear about a fatwa to kill somebody or to arrest him.
Shri Mataji: But nowadays.
Said Ait Chalal: Since fundamentalism has taken over, then anybody could-
Shri Mataji: Now
Said Ait Chalal: denounce a person and these so-called learned people will decide you know, either, I think, to kill him and if the decision is taken any Muslim-
Shri Mataji: Non, no, what I’m trying to say that in your country or any country, is there a central body?
Said Ait Chalal: No, no, there isn’t.
Shri Mataji: Then how do say, those who are learned people, how are they followed [unsure]?
Rustum Burjolee: Self-appointed.
Said Ait Chalal: These learned people have written about Koran, about religion, they have a learning, they are known all over the country and so the government call them: they have what you call a “Conseil religieux” [religious council].

Shri Mataji: Now, for example, in your country, it’s a socialist government.
Said Ait Chalal: It used to be, it no longer is.
Shri Mataji: Now, but that time.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes
Shri Mataji: You had anybody?
Said Ait Chalal: Well, these people who were under the control of the government, they never have taken such a Fatwa. But since two years, this party which is called FIS [The Islamic Salvation Front in French] has, by its own authority, you know, made a Fatwa to kill any men [unsure]. So these young people who have no, no religion, they say: If I kill, I go to paradise. So they go and kill, which is completely stupid.
Shri Mataji: Gangsterism.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes.
Shri Mataji: I mean there is no central body, there is no controlling body as such.
Said Ait Chalal: No.
Shri Mataji: No elected body.
Said Ait Chalal: Not at all. Mother, lately about six months ago, there was a very famous learned man in the religion, Uslimani he’s called Uslimani. They arrested him, these terrorists, they arrested him, they took him away to the mountains and they told him to write a Fatwa making the killing of anybody authorised.
Shri Mataji: Any?
Said Ait Chalal: Anybody. They can kill anybody and it’s authorized.
Shri Mataji: “Acha”.
Said Ait Chalal: So he is a good religious man, he said: “I cannot send that.” They just throwed him away [unsure].

Shri Mataji: So that means – what I am trying to tell, that instead of combining all these minimum people why doesn’t he say something about fundamentalism compared to Islam?
Rustum Burjolee: Right. That is the basic thing.
Said Ait Chalal: Absolutely.

Shri Mataji: He’s up with opinions; I think that if he gets Pop, Dalai Lama, all these nonsensical people together, then he can create unity.
Said Ait Chalal: At minimum unity.
Shri Mataji: hum?
Said Ait Chalal: At minimum unity.
Antonio: At least.
Shri Mataji: Minimum. Now, apart from him, Pop is a hopeless case and then Dalai Lama is another- Dalai Lama doesn’t even believe in God.
Said Ait Chalal: Ayatollah is the same.
Shri Mataji: And then Archbishop of Canterbury, the one who has come from Dharam [?] is now the Gana. [Hindi]
Rustum Burjolee: Ne, Ne, ne, Dharambala is retired.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Rustum Burjolee: He is retired.
Shri Mataji: He is retired? From where is he?
Antonio: Who Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: This new-
Rustum Burjolee: Archbishop of Canterbury
Shri Mataji: Archbishop of Canterbury
I said that Dharam fellow used to say that Christ is a homosexual.
Rustum Burjolee: And that there is no God.
Shri Mataji: There is no God?
Rustum Burjolee: Yes.
Shri Mataji: And he also was for the marriage of homosexuals. And now they have appointed homosexuals as a priest.
Which such people, what are they going to do with lunatics? [Unsure]

Shri Mataji: Now, this Pop also has a keep, do you know that?
[Conversation in Hindi]
According to us it’s Mooladhara.
Rustum Burjolee: He used to have a keep. Now he might be too old.
Shri Mataji: No, no, he has a keep in Poland. And she has to now Italy and she staying there.
Rustum Burjolee: He must be very old now.
Shri Mataji: He’s seventy-two only. One year older than Me.
Rustum Burjolee: Still playing around like that.

Shri Mataji: And the – you should see this picture. You got in France, that picture is “The Godfather 3”?
Antonio: Yes Mother, we watched it.
Shri Mataji: Better show him.
They have shown there how the first Pop was murdered by this Pop.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes Shri Mataji.
Antonio: It was very clear.
Rustum Burjolee: I read a book about it.
Antonio: Very clear.
Shri Mataji: No, “In the name of God”. Ne, ne, this is different.
This is Paul Marcinkus and all that they show. And what is the bank, bank of what?
Sahaja Yogis: Ambrosia [Ambrosiano] Marcinkus.
Antonio: It’s very clear, in this movie, it is very clear.
Rustum Burjolee: In English or in French?
Antonio: In French.
Shri Mataji: It begins, it begins by restoring-
Antonio: But in one year.
Said Ait Chalal: C’est un film [In French: Is it a movie?]
Antonio: Oui le Parrain, numéro trois. [In French: Yes, The Godfather 3]
Shri Mataji: By restoring, you see and avoid on The Godfather1 who donated money.
Rustum Burjolee: To the Pop.
Antonio: Seven hundred millions dollars, something like that.

Shri Mataji: Well. And what about Jews?
Rustum Burjolee: What about them Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: Jews the way they are behaving. They hate Muslims.
Rustum Burjolee: In Israel.
Said Ait Chalal: They hate every body.
Shri Mataji: Are we able to unite Jews?
Said Ait Chalal: They hate every body, not Muslims only.
Shri Mataji: Is it possible to plan to unite Jews and Muslims?
Said Ait Chalal: Not possible, not possible at all.
Shri Mataji: Is there any basis?
Antonio: Destroying Israel.
Michel Cernay: Only to get rid of all of them.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes.
Michel Cernay: They will destroy each others.
Said Ait Chalal: Because they are even against, the Jews are against anybody coming to the Jew’s faith. They are [inaudible]
Shri Mataji: All right.
Said Ait Chalal: Ils n’ont pas de prosélitisme. [They do not have proselytism.]
Michel Cernay: No, you become a Jew by birth.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes, the mother has to be a Jew.
Shri Mataji: What?
Prakash: If the father is Jew it is not enough.
Michel Cernay: The mother has to be a Jew, so the son is
Said Ait Chalal: In order to be a Jew;
Michel Cernay: But you cannot become a Jew.
Rustum Burjolee: You can, you can.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes, you can by conversion.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes.
Said Ait Chalal: But still you are not a Jew.
Shri Mataji: And Indian Jews are not Jews.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes because to be a Jew you have to have a mother Jewish.
Shri Mataji: No but the main thing, you see, the troubles with, the problems with Jews and Christians is this, that Christians believe that Jews crucified Christ, which is nonsense, there never did. Have you ever heard that a multitude can crucify someone? It’s the Romans who did it. But to save themselves, this fellow stupid, Paul, he said so. Christians-
Antonio: No, the Italians took the decision. The Romans, same.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes, Vatican 2.
Shri Mataji: How can they crucify Christ? You tell Me, They cannot because in law, it’s the person who is the judge who does that. So how they say that the Jews crucified him? This has all been managed by Mister Paul, because he wanted to avoid the blame on the Romans, because he was a Roman.

All right.

So they hated it on [unsure]. Now, their children’s children also hate. Now, the great grand children also hate because they say that these people killed Christ.
Rustum Burjolee: It’s normal to hate this one.
Shri Mataji: No, no, but this is too much. Now Jews hate so much Christ, unbelievable. Even when they come to Sahaja Yoga, they don’t like because we worship Christ.
Antonio: Acha?
Shri Mataji: Hum. In the beginning; later on they accept. I said: “All right, say Lord’s prayer.” “We don’t know.” They wouldn’t say Lord’s prayer for Agnya.
Rustum Burjolee: So their Agnya is caring on catching.
Shri Mataji: Then later on they improve. But n the beginning, Jews are very difficult. How any Jews we have also in Sahaja Yoga?
Rustum Burjolee: Very, very few.
Shri Mataji: Here, do you have any?
Sahaja Yogi: We have Alexander.
Prakash: We have Mamata.
Antonio: We have few of them, 2, 3 of them.
Shri Mataji: Who?
Antonio: Mamata that is now married to an Italian.
Prakash: In Genoa.
Antonio: Who has a Jew culture. Etienne in Cabella, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Etienne’s wife.
Antonio: Etienne. He was Jew.
Shri Mataji: Ah. Look at how he is behaving. I didn’t know he was a Jew.
Prakash: Sharon.
Antonio: Sharon is Jew.
Shri Mataji: That’s the whole family. The father was a Rabbi and he was, he has written something about Sahaja Yoga. Ray is going to give Me. His father is dead now. They were all. Rustum Burjolee: They were OK.
Shri Mataji: They have fear, just like Parsis they are. You cannot become a Parsi, but Parsis can take to other –
Rustum Burjolee: Religion.
Shri Mataji: Like they worship Sainath, many people. They worship Me also. So it’s [inaudible] Parsis.
Rustum Burjolee: Parsis, you can never loose the religion Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Rustum Burjolee: You can never lose the religion.
Shri Mataji: You can never loose Parsi [gana?]
Rustum Burjolee: Who ever you worship, you are still a Parsi.
Shri Mataji: Ah. That’s one thing. But whatever it is you are a Parsi.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes.
Shri Mataji: So if you should marry a non Parsi they don’t like. And the children become Parsi or not?
Rustum Burjolee: If the father is Parsi, yes.
Shri Mataji: Acha.
Said Ait Chalal: The contrary of the Jews.
Rustum Burjolee: But if the mother is Parsi, no. So Rajiv Gandhi was a Parsi, you see, officially.
Shri Mataji: Thus the children became Parsi.
Rustum Burjolee: Officially, they are Parsi, yes. Although, they have nothing to do with it.
Shri Mataji: They call themselves Hindus.
Rustum Burjolee: Acha. Rajiv Gandhi used to go to all these parties and ceremonies in Delhi, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: His father was a Parsi.
Rustum Burjolee: His father was a Parsi. Feroze Gandhi.

Shri Mataji: So now, this: [Shri Mataji is back to the reading of the letter]
“we have come to similarities” and what he is talking about is a question mark.
No similarity.
You see, if you just accept something which is not true and build up the whole theory, what is the use?
Said Ait Chalal: I suppose, Mother, he is talking about the origin of these religions. They call them the sons of Abraham.
Shri Mataji: Originally?
Said Ait Chalal: Yes originally they go and departed and I suppose, that’s what he calls “similarities” coming from the same source.
Shri Mataji: Now: “It’s up to the real followers to prescribe the right actions ad to ban the wrong ones.” Who are these? From where will you get? Another question.
“According to Islam, the way to follow is given by the competent religious authorities.”
Baap re! [Hindi, from “Arre baap re”, Oh my God!]
Said Ait Chalal: Mullahs.
Shri Mataji: They are the worst.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes. Ayatollahs like Khomeini. It’s ridiculous.
Rustum Burjolee: You said, Shri Mataji, Khomeini is coming from Ulna [Unsure; place in India]
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Rustum Burjolee: From C.P.’s place.
Shri Mataji: Who?
Rustum Burjolee: Khomeini.
Shri Mataji: Ah! That’s what they said. He comes from Unna [?].
Rustum Burjolee: He’s an Indian. Did you know that?
Said Ait Chalal: No, I didn’t.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes, Khomeini is an Indian.
Antonio: Khomeini?
Shri Mataji: He is a disciple of Khomeini and he came from India.
Antonio: I didn’t know that.
Rustum Burjolee: He’s probably from Kashmir, yes.
Shri Mataji: And he’s from C.P.’s place.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes, from C.P.’s place, you didn’t know it.
Shri Mataji: Ah, maybe a joke, I don’t know.
Rustum Burjolee: Ne, ne, Shri Mataji. Definitely, his father came from Kashmir.
Shri Mataji: Ah?
Rustum Burjolee: Yes Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: We don’t have these names Khomeini.
Rustum Burjolee: He might have taken it Shri Mataji.
Said Ait Chalal: Maybe. [Inaudible]
Shri Mataji: Khomeini [inaudible] wisdom, because he used to respect India very much.
Rustum Burjolee: And you know Shri Mataji, under his rule, any Parsi could enter Iran without a visa.
Shri Mataji: Acha.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Because they were originally-
Rustum Burjolee: Original. Yes.
Shri Mataji: Iranians.

Shri Mataji: There’s somebody who told Me that he comes from Unna [?] which is my husband’s place.
“We are convinced that if Christ and Moses followers, who are also experts in the coming of the Promised and who do expect their wealth of universal peace and a better understanding of Muslims, then this sacred vow might be we achieved now.”
I’m there! [Laughter]
Prakash: He did not connect it to Sahaja Yoga.
Rustum Burjolee: You have to give him a chance Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Rustum Burjolee: You have to give him a chance, see where he is coming from and what his head is like.
Shri Mataji: No, no, but what I ‘m saying, how will you know? How will you know about the person who is promised? How will they know?
Antonio: This we have to ask him again.
Shri Mataji: The miraculous photographs you should take.
Antonio: Yes, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: How will they know? Nobody has given a-mass Realization. That he accepts. Then I must be somebody different. For Jews, it’s easier because what happened, it’s written that the person who will be coming now will not have a head but a Sun. There’s a photograph, have you got that?
Antonio: Yes, Mother, right here.
Shri Mataji: And Christians believe that a Lady in white will come. She has the Moon at Her feet and the Sun on Her head. That also I’ve got. And what more you have?
What do the Muslims believe?
Rustum Burjolee: They believe Jesus Christ will come.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Rustum Burjolee: Jesus Christ will come.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes, they do believe. Yes, yes.
Shri Mataji: Christ will come.
Said Ait Chalal: Oh, yes, that’s the last one. It is told in Islam that when Christ will come, then the door of compassion will be closed. No body can be saved with that.
Michel Cernay: After. But it’s a man, Shri Mataji. They are expecting a man.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes.
Shri Mataji: A man, that’s it! [Laughter] [Inaudible]
Antonio: I asked to Runi why-

Shri Mataji: Christ if he comes, see, he will live for thirty three years and get himself hanged, you see. He has no patience for stupid people. He used to take a hunter and hit people like that. It’s only, you need a Mother. You see, this is what it is. One should understand that this work cannot be done by a man.
You see, either men are like this, what you call “ubies”, sort of very submissive, this, that, diplomatic type or –
Rustum Burjolee: Hamta.
Shri Mataji: But I’ve never known a person who is- for Krishna will come with his suddharshana, Rama will come with his mace [unsure] and Durga will come with her sword. So which one you’ll choose?
Antonio: You, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Forgiveness is a quality, even not in Ganesha. I’m so frightened of him sometimes. He hits you so hard. But I’ve told him, “leave my children [??] at least”, you can hit others.”
But everybody tries to be funny even in Sahaja Yoga he hits. It’s the Christ who hits the worst, because he said: “I have tolerated all kinds of insults against me, but I will not tolerate anything against the Holy Ghost.” Now, who is this Holy Ghost? That means he is not.
Rustum Burjolee: Definitely he is not.
Shri Mataji: He is not now.
Secondly this Muhammad sahib also has said that somebody will come do qyama, this, that. All right. That means he as not the last. To believe, because he was the last, these people are behaving like this. Somebody has to say: “No, it is not. He is not the last.” Not challenging his power but what he said that: “Another Mahadhi”- atcha in your language what is Mahadhi?
Rustum Burjolee: Arabic?
Shri Mataji: No, no. Persian.
Rustum Burjolee: I don’t know.
Shri Mataji: It’s your language. You lost? You are Persian to begin with.
In Persian language, Mahadhi means the Adi Mother.
Rustum Burjolee: I don’t know Shri Mataji about that. But there’s an Iranian here somewhere isn’t it?
Antonio: Majid is not here right now.
Shri Mataji: Then Iranians also changed. I asked him, [?] as well, and he says that this is from the ancient Persian.
Rustum Burjolee: Western Persian. That we should know Shri Mataji, it’s in our prayers.
Shri Mataji: What are those [?]
Rustum Burjolee: That’s the one we use, but I don’t understand it, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: You should find out “Mahadhi”.
Rustum Burjolee: But it’s very similar to Sanskrit.
Shri Mataji: [in Sanskrit about Maha adhi]
Rustum Burjolee: Yes, Maha adhi. Yes, it is very close to Sanskrit, Western Persian.
Shri Mataji: I think so because Gandhiji [Hindi?]
So now, you are quite prepared for Mehedi Ruhani.
C.P. said that Mehedi will also do.
Rustum Burjolee: Mehedi or Mahadi, is the same sthing Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Acha? Mehe
Said Ait Chalal: Mehedi.

Shri Mataji: What do you say to mother? “Mère”?
Antonio: Mère.
Shri Mataji: Mère.
Antonio: Mère.

Shri Mataji: Mehedi, he said Mahadi?
Said Ait Chalal: Mehedi.
Shri Mataji: Mehedi, for the coming to your house.
Said Ait Chalal: The meaning is the, somebody who is offered.
Antonio: The gift of God.
Michel Cernay: Prasad.
Shri Mataji: A poster.
Antonio: No, no, a gift.
Said Ait Chalal: A gift, somebody who is offered to another person.
Rustum Burjolee: A gift, something that is offered to God.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Offered to God or to human beings?
Said Ait Chalal: Well, here it is to human beings, because it’s given to a woman who is the mother.
Shri Mataji: That’s what I –
Said Ait Chalal: Who is the mother.
Shri Mataji: Given to human beings to kill or to do what they like.

Shri Mataji: All right, let’s see, we’ll work on this. It will- you see, you have to have a particular courage, shakti sheoda [unsure]
Rustum Burjolee: Ji.
Shri Mataji: Look at Me, I’m a woman, in Basel [Switzerland], last year, I blasted over a bank and all these Swiss [??] and thousands came.
Shri Mataji: I said you carry the white cross over the red blood of all the developing countries.
Antonio: White cross of hypocrisy.
Arnaud [laughing]: Yes Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Gregoire was sitting like this.
And he was saying: “Mother the book that you are writing, I don’t know what’s going to happen.”
“What? They can’t arrest Me. I write it up. Whatever of what is written, if you can prove it’s wrong, you can arrest Me.”
I write the truth.
Rustum Burjolee: Many people have written much worse things, you know.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Rustum Burjolee: I said many people have written things completely wrong no one’s done anything to them.
Shri Mataji: No, no, they have written. But you see, I’ll also write it about Islam.
Rustum Burjolee: Acha.
Shri Mataji: Not Islam but Muslims, how they are bringing name of Islam to dust. They cannot say anything.
I can criticize Muslims?
Rustum Burjolee: Yes, of course. Many Muslims criticize it themselves.

Shri Mataji: So this is what my idea is.
Rustum Burjolee: But if you talk about the Koran, they’ll get very upset.
Shri Mataji: Koran, I won’t talk much.
Said Ait Chalal: yes.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes Shri Mataji.
Said Ait Chalal: It can be interpreted. To give an interpretation, a sensible one, not attacking it, then there is a reaction.
Shri Mataji: No but in the translation also. If they write anything wrong, all the Muslims will kill that person who translated.
Rustum Burjolee: No, no, that’s allowed, you can make a mistake.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Rustum Burjolee: You’re allowed to make a mistake… [inaudible] didn’t know any Arabic so he wrote it like this.
Said Ait Chalal: In good faith. [Means, without knowing]
Shri Mataji: Only thing, the big difference between the Islam and other religion is this, now, today, that they have like a complete administrative powers, exhibition powers, you see-
Rustum Burjolee: Which is not centrally controlled.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Rustum Burjolee: Which is not centrally controlled and which anybody can take as his own right. They do this, Shri Mataji- Said doesn’t believe me- but in small Egyptian villages and places, someone will get up and say: “I’m Imam. This man is not a Muslim. Go and kill him.”
Shri Mataji: So what? Ignorant people, they might be. You know they can, we call it ‘piparyas’ [unsure] in Sanskrit, it’s the diversion. They can divert because, supposing I’ve not read Koran- I’ve read it- so what? I can divert it. Now, how will they know? They don’t know even how to read and write.
Said Ait Chalal: That’s what they are doing. They are using Koran for their own interest, not for the interest of-
Rustum Burjolee: Shri Mataji, when I used to stay with the Bedouins, in south Arabia, they are not educated, they can’t read or write. They have never heard the Koran. So they do what they like in college religion. They would have to pray, don’t pray in the middle of the night, and all sorts of things Shri Mataji.
Said Ait Chalal: Traditions.
Rustum Burjolee: You have no ideas what they.
Shri Mataji: What?
Rustum Burjolee: Yes. But they are OK. They were better actually, because you could talk to them.
Shri Mataji: Of course, they’re innocent.
Rustum Burjolee: Yes, Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: Sometimes I feel, all these incarnations have created a chaos for Me. If they had not done all this nonsense with these ignorant people, it would have been a much better world, you know.
Rustum Burjolee: So why did they come Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Rustum Burjolee: Why did they come?
Shri Mataji: They came to bring you to make a [?] as this, what you call a, is the step by which you have to rise. But every body seems to be completely disobeyed.
If you want to know about Christ, I was telling them, I think fifth chapter of Matthews. There is describe human- Sahaja Yogis- how far they can go in their humility and all that. Absolutely. Where will you find-
Rustum Burjolee: … The beatitude.
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible; Yogis speaking at the same time]
But we know that, after that. Of course that’s a description because he is blessing you all, that “those who will trouble you”, this thing. But after it’s written that, it’s written that you should not have a relation with another woman or something like that. But he said: “I say that you won’t have this in your mind and in your eyes.” I mean he reached the subtler points. So how many Christians are doing that? Where are they gone?

I hope they brought the good news to you about my not going to Bogotá now.
You see it appeared in the newspaper, even in England, Italy, everywhere.
Michel Cernay: Shri Mataji, we were some of us, giving bandhans about this football sucker festival. Because if Columbia had wan, it would have- football became a real religion. There was not, in the TV, something else than football, all the advertisements were about football. Children had to take vitamins to become a great player. You had to buy a TV to see the matches. It was absolutely incredible. So thanks God, they were eliminated. But it’s really a craze in this country. It’s a religion.
Shri Mataji: Colombia lost.
Michel Cernay: Yes. Completely eliminated.
Rustum Burjolee: But you heard about what they did to-
Michel Cernay: Yes. That’s the point.
Shri Mataji: What is-
Michel Cernay: So they killed the player.
Rustum Burjolee: One chap shot his own goal. So they shot him, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: That I know.
Michel Cernay: Yes, that Shri Mataji knows. But I don’t think it will go further now.
Shri Mataji: No, no. Another thing is “Grand Prix”, this hero died.
Michel Cernay: Yes, Ayrton Senna [Brazilian racing driver died in May 1994].
Shri Mataji: Now.
So others will join to die. You see, they want fame. Even with the death if they can get, they ‘re going to Hell. You see, they are catering up. I mean they were first asking for money, then for power, now for fame.
Rustum Burjolee: And preferably all three, Shri Mataji
Shri Mataji: In my own thoughts I should write it down because they never come back.

Shri Mataji: This new attitude of Pop that he is saying that: “I know that we all make mistakes and I’ve made mistakes” is just to get a fame that he is very religious. [Shri Mataji speaks in Hindi] Hindi, they say: the cat eats seventy rats and then wants to go to Hajj.”
Rustum Burjolee: It’s true. If you ask Muslims who are real-
Shri Mataji: Eat rats?
Rustum Burjolee: Ne, ne, ne.
Shri Mataji [laughing]: The way you said it I thought they eat rats.
Rustum Burjolee: I asked many of my Muslims friends: “You know, why you are doing all these bad things, you see? You know it’s forbidden in the Koran. Won’t you go to Hell?” They say: “No, no, before we die we’ll do Hajj and everything will be OK.”
Shri Mataji: Is it written in the Koran?
Said Ait Chalal: No. But I think that’s the way of teaching
Shri Mataji: Koran.
Said Ait Chalal: The principles of Koran which is completely wrong.
Shri Mataji: It is something like we had in our country also. We had people who knew Sanskrit, Brahmins, and non-Brahmins did not know Sanskrit. So whatever the Brahmins said, they used to listen. But gradually, among Brahmins only, they were very nice the foremost who came in. And they tried to put down all this nonsense. There was no marriage for window in India. They used to marry small girls and if they became widows, there was no marriage like that. So there were, at least in Maharashtra, there were three reformists who married widows themselves, [inaudible] some prostitutes and reformed so many things there.
Also about education of women, they started universities free for them.
And because of Muslim influence, our country had become sort of either at tune with them or frightened by them. Those who were frightened were starting taking burqa, urda, ugart, [?] in My husband’s family they all take ugart [?]. I also have to take.
It has an advantage, even if you are ugly, you don’t bother.

Rustum Burjolee: Shri Mataji, once I did a research in Oman, I tried to see how many of the religious people were beautiful.
Shri Mataji: About?
Rustum Burjolee: How many of the religious people were beautiful. And I found that religiousness and ugliness go together in Oman.
[Shri Mataji is laughing]: Not in Sahaja Yoga.
Rustum Burjolee: No, in Oman I said.
Rustum Burjolee: No, seriously, I did it, Shri Mataji.
Arnaud: In Sahaja Yoga, it’s just the contrary Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Yes. You become beautiful.
Arnaud: The Realization gives you the beauty.
Shri Mataji: That’s the truth, you know.
Ah! I must tell you the last, that I was listening to this Hajj thing, there was one lecture going on like a [?] “Oh, oh, oh, oh” and Alga was sitting next to Me. So I said: “Alga, do you know Arabic?” She said: “Yes, yes, you can skip this man.” He was just pouring poison saying “We are the truth and we know the truth and those who don’t know the truth are evils and must be killed and all kinds of things.” He spoke like this for two hours or say.
And I was just sitting there. So Alga said: “Mother, what is going to happen with these people who are listening to this kind of a lecture in your presence?” And there were thirteen thousand people who were stamped.
Rustum Burjolee: Killed.
Shri Mataji: That’s the official.
Arnaud: Where?
Shri Mataji: Thirteen thousands people.
Arnaud: When?
Shri Mataji: Stamped.
Rustum Burjolee: In Hajj.
Shri Mataji: Crushed with the, this is stamped, in the crowd. What you say
Prakash: When was it Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: Thirteen thousands. It’s the official news. Because after that only I had this
Lady from TV Asia. And she told Me that: “We are sorry but we shorten the program because the stamping was so great. Thirteen thousands.” They tried to hide.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes, of course.
[Sahaja Yogis talking at the same time]
Rustum Burjolee: It was in May.
Arnaud: We didn’t hear that Shri Mataji.
Rustum Burjolee: Oh yes, it was in English newspapers.
Said Ait Chalal: In the papers.
Shri Mataji: Little bit.
Antonio: No, in France, we didn’t get it.
Said Ait Chalal: Yes, in France.
Michel Cernay: I got it in Colombia.
[Conversation in French between Antonio and Said about the news on French TV]

Rustum Burjolee: Now Hajj has become like a circus Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: It is. You know they have water pipes on their heads which are pouring water, they are standing with an umbrella.

[Cut in the audio]

H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi