Professor Voronov’s talk and Shri Mataji’s acceptance of the award, Turkey, 1994
[Audio 1994-1105 Talk After Diwali Puja Istanbul Source NITL]
[No sound. Abu Bakr?] killed two more Khalifas and became Khalifa himself. And the last Khalifa before him was killed and his liver was eaten by his mother (her name was Hind bint ‘Utbah), mother of this Abu Bakr (Shri Mataji means Mu’awiyah- first Khalifa of Umayyad Caliphate). What a horrible fellow he was! And just to become the Khalifa, he did this. By that time, nobody had written Bible of this Koran (Koran, as a word means to gather, to bring together, pages brought together). Because it was not written down anywhere. It was remembered by heart because Muhammad Sahib did not know how to read and write. So, this fellow went round all the people who were the sons of the people who had learnt or who had remembered by heart, who had carried this for forty years.
After forty years, Koran was edited by this horrible fellow Abu Bakr and he did according to the way he was. He was something like our great mister Paul. But he hated women, he hated women and that is why he did a lot of nonsense in that – actually, how much of original Koran is there? One doesn’t know.
But he made it like this, that Koran is the last word and whatever is in the Koran is all right. But just see, despite everything, how the truth has come! Whatever we see, even today, is there. But the most important thing that Muhammad Sahib himself, never separated himself from other religions. He described about Moses, Abraham, he described about Christ and then he described about himself. He never separated them. He did (not) say, there are three religions, or he is the best, nothing of that kind.
Only the point where these Muslims have taken a wrong view is that he put a seal. He said, “I am the seal of the Masters of the Prophets”. Here he said, “I am not Divine”. Then he said, “I am the seal”. Now, two points in them: seal means not necessarily that he has sealed it, but it means also a style, the same style as Abraham, Moses, Christ, he is the same style. But he said, “I am not Divine”. Because if you say that you are Divine, everybody gets after you. May have said, may not have said because maybe, the great mister Abu Bakr must have done.
But if he has said that he was the seal, he was the last word, then why did he talk of the twelfth (imam) Al-Mahdî (first one was Ali and second one was Hasan) who is going to come and give you resurrection. Now, what about that?
Now you ask a question, “Mother, are you the twelfth Al-Mahdî?” That’s the test. See the vibrations! So, I’m the one who has to give resurrection and the one who has come. These, all these little things, if somebody can read it carefully, one would understand that he never said that, “I am the last one” firstly. He never said that Bible is the last word or Koran is the last word. He continued, you see, he showed one after another, all of them recontinue in that line of Divinity which he clearly said.
And the one who has edited, it’s a well-known fact that he is Abu Bakr. And my father told me all these things and then I verify from others, it’s a fact. But who dare say anything? Because they are violent people and if you say anything they’ll just come and kill you.
That too, I would say, among Muslims, there are two types. One, who are educated, enlightened people, who have read other books, they would always like to take the brighter side of the whole thing and would like to consider something else. But those who are uneducated have to be fundamentalist because they don’t understand, they are absolutely ignorant.
But now we are in Turkey where a great, another great soul came, Kemal Pacha Atatürk. He is the one who shattered all this. He could see clearly. He changed so many things, he brought about so many laws, and he brought women and men on the same level. Still, there are people who are trying to go back and change the laws and all that. What is happening is this country is suffering because they are giving up what Atatürk told. Now for us it is to reestablish that great vision of Atatürk in this country. Not only that, but to help them in every way first.
You see, they are so simple, so innocent, that they are attacked by three, four forces I find here. Firstly, Islam is a very moral religion, over moral, I told you today. So, the women were sticking onto men, men were sticking onto women. But I’m told that now many prostitutes are coming from other countries, especially Russia, very surprising. They come here and they are spoiling the family that’s one thig. Another is Kurdish people, they are still of the same level as the- we can say these tribal, just like tribal. I met them so I know. They are absolutely tribal, they don’t understand anything, quarrelsome, fighting cocks. Thirdly, at the time of Muhammad, life was so miserable and so oppressive that he had to fight. But that doesn’t mean that Muslims must also fight everywhere, wherever they go, they must fight, they must spread Islam.
Now the point is: what has Islam given them? Where are they? What it has given them? They are very immoral, extremely cruel, why? Koran never said so. Koran never said of conversion, never said that you convert people. This is a Christian madness. And from Christian, it has come to Koran. Even Christ never said that you should be converted. He said, “You have to be born again”. And Muhammad also never said, “Convert people”.
But in India, you ‘ll be surprised, the way they were so cruel in India, you have no idea. It cannot be described the cruelty there. So, one feels pity for them. They are following God, following religion. You are taking the peace, you are taking to the joy, you are going in the way of complete destruction! One way they are, say, they are against the Westerners because they are immoral. So, immoral people also are getting destroyed. And so-called moral also are getting destroyed. They are fighting among themselves. All the time, they are fighting among themselves. Wherever you find a Muslim, the father will fight with the son, the son will fight with his brother.
In our country, when Aurangzeb was ruling, horrible he was but his sons, they killed each other! Four of them. They did all kinds of things. There was one fellow who was a Realized soul, he was also killed. So, the killing to them is a religious thing, a ritual.
I would say that after seeing what they have done in India, no one can believe that Koran can do any good to them. They are the poorest people in India, poorest. When I see them, I really feel like crying. Because one man has produced say, twenty children, twenty-four children, one man. And they are left on the street because “Talaq, talaq, talaq” finished. This, never Muhammad Sahib has said. If you understand Divinity, you understand him.
Can I do such a thing? Will I permit such a thing? Will I allow such a thing? Then you judge him by Me. So, no use criticizing Muhammad Sahib because he was divine, he was divinity, no doubt about it, but the people who followed them are really mad. Like the Christians who followed Christ are mad too. If you are to judge Christ, judge Him from Me. Will My Mother do that? Will She do this? She will never do it.
So, if you start judging them by my standard, you will understand that none of them were wrong, none of them were against Divine laws. They were all together. They came to change the world to help me in such a big way. Without them, I would not have been as successful as I am. Because they have definitely created chakras within you, in a very subtle way. And their chakras, we worked out. So, don’t judge Muslims, Christians, Hindus, or Sikhs, the way they follow their religion, but the way the people who created them lived.
So, for you, an example is here. I can’t do many things which are described about this. Impossible. He had to marry all right, five wives or four wives, all right. Because that was the time when there were very few women, very few, and many, many men died very, I would say, very few men, and very few men who could marry. So, the women didn’t know what to do. He married even, he said, “You marry even a young girl doesn’t matter, but marry them. He was for marriages. He wanted that there should be marriages and that women should not become prostitutes. Now, what the Muslims grudge is that the Christians are immoral.
They are nowhere less, I can tell you, they are nowhere less.
I’ve seen them. I was travelling from Riyadh to London and I went off to sleep. When I got up, I was surprised to see that they were all different people. I couldn’t understand these dandies fandies [unsure], from where they have appeared? They were all wearing these things on their heads, you see, what I call as the Italian table cloth. And suddenly, they became very great you see, dandies. Bodh eyes, this, that, smoking and drinking, and women also drinking. So, I thought, “It must have been some other place. It might be Paris we might have touched. So, the air hostess said, “No, no they are the same people”. I said, “They were the same? ” “Yes, absolutely the same. We never touch any other port”.
This kind of hypocrisy cannot be any religion. In Sahaja Yoga, one thing, you cannot be hypocritical. If you are there you’ll be corrected, corrected, corrected till you are all right. You cannot carry on with your chakras. All kinds of defects they have and they start emitting bad vibrations and spoil the Vishwa Nirmala Dharma, means the innate pure religion we have to have.
If you follow a religion, you have to be a perfect member of that. You cannot be a hypocrite, that’s the point. In Sahaja Yoga, anybody who thinks that he can be till I live, I will know who they are. Till you live, you will know who they are. So, it’s a new race we are starting. It’s a race of Realized souls, who know what is right and wrong and who’ll go out of the way to keep the right path all right. So, the responsibility is much more. As you said, you have light, you are enlightened, now keep the lights on. You must know that you have a very big responsibility, a very big responsibility to keep this path of true, pure religion enlightened for others also.
If you say something, and do something, then we are not religious at all. That’s hypocrisy.
So please try to understand, so many Sahaja Yogis we had to ask them to go away because you know they had funny problems: Agnya, sometimes this, sometimes that. They had to go away. But still, there is forgiveness in Sahaja Yoga, there’s redemption in Sahaja Yoga, there are love and compassion and it works. The only difference is that there is no punishment, no physical punishment, no mental punishment. We just say, “All right, you cannot fit here, so go away”. Instead of having any punishment. If there is any difference between other religions and this religion is this: that there is no punishment for whatever you may do to Me or to anyone. Though maybe Christ might punish, that I don’t know. Deities might punish, that’s different. But as far as I am concerned, I am not going to punish. I’ll say, “All right. Thank you very much, you can go away”. And that becomes the greatest punishment now for people.
So, you have to keep your health all right, wealth all right, your temperament all right. Everything should be pleasant and joyous. That’s all. Automatically it can be. How we enjoy today thoroughly and how the beautiful singing, dancing, everything is so nice, so beautiful. There was nothing that was ugly or funny.
Even the modern dancing and modern music were so beautiful, you know. It was so beautiful. That, normally I got a headache from that but nothing, my headache has gone, it’s so good. So, if it is done with that purity, that understanding, the creativity takes every form in a beautiful way. Like many flowers, every flower is a beauty. So, I would request you all to remember that you cannot be hypocritical. Hypocrisy is not going to help. Don’t support any hypocrite, in no way. That’s all. You don’t have to punish, not have to say any word, nothing. It is not my job to punish them. There are so many who can punish them, so why worry?
I really feel very happy today that we have entered into that area, where I was longing to enter and that is it. And I must also say, Guillemette has done so much research work and we should give her a hand for this.
Whosoever has written this, I don’t know who has written the whole thing [the scenario of the play].
Antonio: It is Guillemette, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Guillemette has written. I could see that as I know her. She positively feels, she has married a Muslim, she positively feels that Muslims can be brought to Sahaja Yoga and can be redeemed. They should be, they are human beings, after all. I feel the same way. And this is how we are now going to enter into a new era and you’ll be happy to know that Tunisia government has invited Me, government.
Also, in Brazil, you’ll be happy to know that when I went to Brazil, at the airport of Brasilia, the mayor himself brought the key of Brazil, and gave it to Me and requesting me “Mother, we give this key to you, please look after Brazilian”.
Of course, Russia has done so much honor to Me. I was really feeling very shy about it. But, they are very sensitive and very wise people. How they could see that, this is the greatest saving for the whole world. And the way they have taken up! I tell you one day, they’ll be regarded as the greatest scientists, because they have seen the point, you see, so easily, while in other countries, I cannot expect these people to really understand what is Sahaja Yoga is. So, now it’s for you to manifest it and to think about it with a very great understanding.
You’ll be surprised that we came to Turkey because of Carla. She’s another dynamic lady. Such devotion she had. She said, “Mother you come to Turkey? ” I could never have come to Turkey. I mean, it’s an unknown place to Me in every way. But I always read the life of Kamal Pasha and I’ve such tremendous respect for him.
As soon as she said, “Mother can you come to Turkey? ” I said, “I will “. Then she’s the one who started all this. And the way she identified herself completely with it. Now she has gone to Malaysia and everybody is very happy with her. We have many great Sahaja Yoginis who have done such great pioneer work also.
But I must say that Gregoire is the one who started it. Wherever he was posted, he felt lonely so he wanted to have Sahaja Yogis and he got them. [Laughter]
So, we have many people who are pioneer and also now they are going to South Africa to other African countries and I am surprised at the way they are daring at things, working it out. Like Dulio went to Brazil and Horacio went to Argentina. And Gregoire sister, Marie-Laure, she went to this very difficult place, Bogota, and she worked it out for that country.
So, like that, we have many who are doing it and I cannot name all of them today but really, they stand out for their ability to create. Like Philippe has gone to East Germany which I suggested to him, he immediately agree. He is working it out there. And also, we have, somebody in Hong Kong who has started, doing very good work. Everywhere I was surprised that these people went there and worked it out. They did not get contaminated or they didn’t try to assert themselves. And that is how Sahaja Yoga has spread.
But the person who started with Gregoire is Rajesh who is here, who’s a very shy person himself. I don’t know how he told the address, my address to Gregoire, and Gregoire came to Me.
So, everything has worked out so beautifully like a small little stream flows and then becomes a big river and meets the ocean of the world. In this way, it has happened.
On this day of Diwali, you should really feel very happy and joyous that we have been blessed so much. That so many of us know the truth, and so many of us are enlightened. We are a strong, strong collectivity.
Thank you very much.
After two minutes, professor Voronov is here and he wants to give Me some special award from St Petersburg University. So, I will request you all to be sitted, it will take hardly ten minues for the whole thing.
So, before that, I must say the weddings went off very well despite the fact it’s Turkey and it’s very different from India where you can get everything very easily. And you all are looking very happy.
Keep this joy all the time and be kind and gentle with each other. As I’ve said you have to soothe others. You have to take up the problems of each other and don’t discuss your past, don’t talk about your past. That’s one thing very wrong, that makes life unnecessarily miserable. Past is over and, now, the reality starts. Enjoy each other’s company, try to find good points of another person.
If you want to find bad points that’s not going to give you any joy, it’s not going to help you. But if you start finding the good points of another person, that not only that you will be very happy, but also you’ll imbibe those good points. Always try to see each other’s good points, never criticize each other for small things, for petty things. We are Sahaja Yogis. We are saints, we are angels, we cannot be like ordinary stupid people who fight and create problems in their life. We are here to make each other happy and to make everyone happy; all the Sahaja Yogis to be happy.
The whole society of Sahaja Yoga should be of a very different type. And there are so many children who are Realized souls, who are great saints, seers, who want to be born and they’ll be only born to Sahaja Yogis who are Sahaj by temperament and who are peaceful, who try to seek peace everywhere, and who are very large hearted. All such people will have very great children.
May God bless you all.
Gregoire: Shri Mataji Rajesh has asked me to say a few words. Shri Mataji, You could have saved the world and You could have met your purpose, staying in India only. We don’t understand and never will how much care, tenderness and compassion and hardships you have gone through to save us in al those countries.
This place, here, is a very historical city. It was called Constantinople, then Byzantium, now Istanbul, but I think it should be called Nirmalpur (city of Nirmal) because you have opened such a dimension of joy and such a powerful Diwali. Shri Mataji, they would like to thank you very much.
And now we pray that your holy feet will touch Africa and that they will be victorious there. Jai Shri Mataji
[Simultaneous translation of professor Voronov’s talk from a Russian Sahaja Yogi]
Simultaneous translation of professor Voronov from a Russian Sahaja Yogi.
It is a great event which happens on this planet. The scientists of Russia and especially of St Petersburg pay attention to this event which happens in the society. What happened? Recently, less than two months ago, a conference has been held in St Petersburg entitled, “Medicine, Self-cognition and morality”.
With regard to this question, there was a sort of an agreement of two directions and the agreement was of love and friendship. Actually, the direction of religion and science.
Morality and knowledge, these are two things which make the whole world think award. [unsure]
There are wars now on the planet and civil wars, the blood of human beings is shed. And during this period, our holy Mother raised quite different questions of love and peace.
[Video starts here]
Our scientist, by my initiative, unanimously elected our holy Mother, Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, an honorary member of our Academy.
Last time, in Moscow, we hand it over to our holy Mother a diploma made by Sahaja Yogis, loving Sahaja Yogis. Now, this is a diploma of the Government of Russia.
I would like to say a few words about what is actually this Academy, and who is a member of it. There are members, among the members we have painters, scientists, musicians of different directions. But we have also honorary members of our Academy, but they are very few in number. One is Antonio Juan Samaranch who is the president of the Olympic Committee of the world. Two or three Ministers who, in their own countries, liquidated the illiteracy in the population of their country. All of them are men. Shri Mataji is the only lady on the world who has been elected an honorary member of this Academy.
I have to say a lot. I know that here we have the best representatives of the nations of the world. But there are some exceptions. We have to put our love first to our self-perfection, self-cognition, to put our, first, the love to our countries. We need to do everything so that the victorious ideals of our holy Mother should not have any hindrance at all. And for that, we should self-perfect ourselves. Yes, we do have something negative besides the positive things.
For example, me and also our Sahaja Yogis from Turkey, they can see how the pieces of bread are spread on the floor. It’s very bad, I consider it very bad.
My daughter by name Svetlana, she is also Sahaja Yogi, she said, “I’ve been living for a long time among the Muslims and I know their attitude towards bread. If a piece of bread has been falling on earth, then they pick it up, they kiss it and put it somewhere for the birds to pick it up”. We also have to feel respect to the laborious people who are producing this bread, to peasants.
I address to all the Sahaja Yogis who are working in the press media, who are journalists: we need to disseminate the ideas of our holy Mother everywhere, on press, television and magazines.
If we do so and behave properly, we can be a real example, we can make real examples for the nations of the whole world. But maybe, today, they started to call Sahaja Yogis who were not perhaps quite satisfied with it. Still, we have to make it better.
Taking into account an energetic activity of Shri Mataji, it gives us an idea to propose to elect Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, a laureate of the Noble Price winner for peace.
For that purpose, we have to work hard in our own countries for Shri Mataji’s ideas to be really realized, understood beyond the level of consciousness. To reach that level for the Noble Price, we need to make an example, we need to make the society, the publicity, press, to realize the ideas of Shri Mataji, how beneficial they are for the whole humanity. In Petroski Academy of Arts and Science, we have many outstanding people and perhaps we shall publish a special article for that in Nirmala Yoga magazine.
But, with all my heart and in the name of all members of the Academy of Arts and Science, I would like to make a sort of present to Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi. This is a reproduction of Dona Latte, it’s a – [aside] sorry, sorry, no, no, Mona Lisa is different. It’s Dona Latte, Madonna, from Leonardo Da Vinci, which you can find in State Hermitage by Leonardo. (Madonna del Latte) It’s different. Not Jocund, it’s different.
And the last. We have really to watch our own behaviour, not to do any negative things. For our compatriots in all our countries would say that, “Sahaja Yogi is really the best representative of humanity in all the countries”. That is our purpose. [Applause]
[Shri Mataji’s answer to this award.]
Shri Mataji: I don’t know but, how to say as to the Russian scholars and scientists. Scientists are amoral people because science is amoral. But I was surprised that in Leningrad [St Petersburg], thanks to professor, we had about two thousand scientists – I don’t know, ten thousand probably – who honoured Me so much. And I told about one centre only there, that is Swadishthan. How Swadishthan they are ruing your life.
And they were listening to Me, absolutely, with the right attention.
[You translate?] All right.
Very surprisingly, I’ve never seen such scientists, because they cannot see something beyond science and Sahaja Yoga is meta science, it is beyond science. And when I told them so many diseases are caused by one centre, they were really amazed at it. But they were open, open-minded people and a scientist means an open-minded person.
I was amazed also, the way they gave Me awards. The first award when they gave Me, I said, “What is this? I’m the tenth member of such an old university where very, very great scientists have got this award. So, how can you give Me such a honour?” So, professor Voronov told Me that, “Mother these scientists have only worked with matter. But you have worked with human beings and transformed them”. I was surprised the way he saw the point. It’s not easy to see this point that transformation of human beings is most important today. If I have achieved it, it’s nothing great, I think, because I knew how to do it. So, it’s nothing great.
But I really feel very proud of you that you have achieved it. I have not achieved anything. I was born like this. But you have achieved it. So many nations here sitting, enjoying the same beautiful feeling of your Spirit. And they are from different nations, different places, different religions, and genuinely they are feeling the joy of their Spirit.
And this is something, was my dream and vision. But I never thought of Noble Price or anything like that. [Laughter]
Because my husband has got all kind of prizes and he always, says, “All due to my wife”.
But what I really treasure is this, that in a great country like Russia where science has reached its heights, that they should accept Me as a great scientist and academician, is something really very remarkable, though I don’t know if I deserve it or not. But that’s what they feel about it.
Professor Voronov: There’s no doubt about it.
Moreover, all the false gurus are banned in Russia. But I was surprised also that they did not ban us. Apart from that, the patriarch, who is like a pope of Leningrad of the white order, he himself invited me to be there. So, we are entering into the realm of religion also. It’s something – not only science, but also religion which is, which has to open eyes and see what have they missed, all the promises that the Prophets gave, that the incarnations gave are to be fulfilled. If they can just see this point, it will be so great. I was surprised also that patriarch himself invites Me to this conference.
So, two great things, I feel, that not only in science but also in religion, Sahaja Yoga is entering and will remove the darkness of ignorance.
Another thing I must tell you that when I went to Brasilia which is the capital of Brazil, the Mayor of Brasilia came to receive Me and he gave Me the keys of Brasilia saying, “Mother, please look after Brazil”. I was really amazed.
So, on the political side also, if we start entering into, our problems should be solved. We should have no problems, we should have no quarrels, no fights, nothing. But let us live with happiness and joy.
I’m sure with this [award], I can see that vision coming through. This vision of mine of seeing the whole world in peace and joy enjoying themselves. All of you, as he said, have to help Me, have to come up as real great Sahaja Yogis.
I don’t know Sir, how to thank you very much because I have no words. But he has been meeting Me for three, four years and I was surprised, he is such a learned man, such an educated person, and how he could see the subtle side of life! And that they discussed about morality! All the time, all the subject was that of morality.
There was a gentleman who was a surgeon who is –
Shri Mataji, aside: How old is he? Eighty years.
Sahaja Yogi: Ninety-three.
Shri Mataji: Very old, but he is still doing operations. He is still doing operations and he is the one who wrote against alcohol. And I was really surprised.
Professor Voronov: Academician Fyodor Uglov.
Shri Mataji: What’s that?
Sahaja Yogi: The name of the man.
Shri Mataji: All right. He wrote a book against alcohol in a country where Vodka is so common. But just imagine! And these people listen to their elders. They are not like Western people who do not car for their elders. They listen to their elders who are very wise. One day, I’m sure, Russia will be one of the most important religious country. It will have such a big name one day because they have taken to truth and not to some nonsensical things. And I am sure this will prove to the whole world that truth is what we should ask for.
We should not get in anyway dominated by untruth because untruth will never bring joy or peace.
Actually, I am overwhelmed by what he has said and I’m happy he has made you so happy also by saying these beautiful things about Me.
But I must tell you, I’m a very humble housewife. That’s all I am. But if you think I’m more than that, I’m not going to challenge it.
Now we have to thank the Turkish people, the French people, for organizing this beautiful program and these weddings, despite all the problems. And also, to every way, work so hard because there were only forty Sahaja Yogis in Turkey and they have done such a dedicated work. And so capable they are! I’m amazed to see this kind of industrious, I should say, or very hard-working people, very hard working. And all the problems are solved here, they say, “Mother, you have solved all of the problems.”
Now I would say the marriages have been done very gracefully. Now, don’t spoil your marriages and create problems for Me. That’s all I want to know that you’ll have very nice children, and that you create a society and help the society of great peacemakers.
Thank you very much.
Thank you [to the professor]