Talk at Swiss Hotel. Istanbul (Turkey), 23 April 2001
SHRI MATAJI: So, the religion should be inside. That’s Sufizm. “Sufi” word comes from “saf” [clean].
Yogi: Mother, Mr. Emin is teaching at the Marmara University and teaching the interpretations of Holy Quran.
SHRI MATAJI: Good.
Yogi: Yes.
SHRI MATAJI: But, you see, Quran also is very much recent.
Sufi : There is a verse in the Quran. It says that if the people were abstain of Allah’s prohibitions and namely, if they followed Allah’s orders, if they did not do so (what they did), they would experience the abundances raining down on them from the sky. That is to say, if they did not break the rules and if they run the orders of Allah.
SHRI MATAJI: It’s not that way. You see.
Sufi : So I am not sure, Yes if they believed, if they believed and didn’t break the rules
Sufi : They would see the gates of abundance in the sky is going to open for them.
SHRI MATAJI: To whom?
Yogi: To the people.
SHRI MATAJI: There’s no doubt about it. But what I feel about the whole thing is that that Koran was written after forty years of death of Muhammad Sahib
SHRI MATAJI: and also-
Sufi :Not, no, He wrote it in his lifetime
SHRI MATAJI: and you cannot remember. But despite that, I find Quran is perfect. But there are many subtler things that are missing. Now, for example, Muhammad Sahib has said that he went on a white horse through the seven heavens. Now, that people don’t understand.
Sufi : They don’t understand.
SHRI MATAJI: So, that is the, he has described exactly what happens when the Kundalini rises.
Sufi :In fact, there is no one who goes or comes. He hasn’t gone anywhere.
SHRI MATAJI: What he says?
Yogi: He says that actually, he is not travelling somewhere
SHRI MATAJI: No, no, no, it is within yourself.
Sufi : By conquering worlds within Himself.
SHRI MATAJI: Within yourself, he crosses.
Sufi : That Miraj (ascend) is a completely spiritual event.
SHRI MATAJI: Yes, but that is what is Sahaja Yoga. That is what, yes.
Sufi :The same, the same
Yogi: But what has happened that
SHRI MATAJI: because of poetry, as people don’t understand and they are misinterpreting. Mainly, they are misinterpreting.
Sufi : No, people are searching the religion outside.
SHRI MATAJI: That’s the point. That’s the point. But what he has said –
Sufi :But mystics (Sufi masters) know that it is a spiritual journey.
SHRI MATAJI: Yes, of course. But the trouble is people don’t understand and they are misled. Because people want to make money out of them or they want to gain some sort of a violence or something and they are just bringing a bad name to Kuran-ı Şerif (Holy Quran) and also to Muhammad Sahib.
Sufi : But this spiritual journey is not the problem of all 1.5 billion Muslims. Every person can not return to their inner world and experience that miracle anyway.
Yogi: He believes that…
Sufi : So, this is not the problem of the common people. The common people do not have such a problem.
SHRI MATAJI: That’s it.
Sufi :We call them as havas (eminent people), Sufi
SHRI MATAJI: That’s true. That is the main thing that we talk about in Sahaja Yoga, that, “You know thyself” is said in the Quran also.
Sufi : Same in all.
SHRI MATAJI: So, when you have not known yourself, you are not a muselman. Without knowing yourself, what are you surrendering to God? It’s an important thing that first you know yourself. Can you believe that all religions have said the same thing? Christ has said the same, Krishna has said the same, Rama has said the same, Zoroaster has said the same thing, all of them have said the same thing.
Sufi :Krishna is more closer to Prophet Adam.
SHRI MATAJI: Haa?
Sufi :He is more closer to the Probhet Adam, to the first religion.
SHRI MATAJI: but Adam, they did not know “Ruh”.
Sufi :No, none of them wrote, their successors also did not write. The poets of that time did not write books either.
SHRI MATAJI: True, I agree. But, you see, whether it is Krishna or anyone of these people, they are all just the same and they are building up human beings to find out about themselves and also, Sufis are like that.
Sufi :There is no such thing in current education also. We know the (material)things, but when it comes to knowing the human being, nobody knows anything. So the education in the most advanced countries, what is taught in schools, you can tell, there is nothing also there for a human being to know himself. There is ethics, there are a set of outwardly rules. You won’t pick your nose, you won’t spit to the ground or something like that but it doesn’t give any information about our inner world, and today’s modern education also does not give anything.
SHRI MATAJI: Yes, correct. I agree with you. But outside was worked out, I don’t know but it has to be worked out inside. Because, when it is worked inside, as it is said that, “At the time of “Qiyama” [Resurrection], your hands will speak” and they speak actually. So, by outside –
Sufi : Presently our hands and feet are speaking also
Sufi :Presently speaking also
SHRI MATAJI: Haa?
Yogi: He says, “Now our hands and feet are speaking also”.
SHRI MATAJI: Ah, that’s the thing, but they are very few and they are the Sufis.
Sufi :Here it is speaking but there is no one who is listening.
SHRI MATAJI: Also, you should know what do they mean, what are they saying and that is what is explained in Sahaja Yoga.
SHRI MATAJI: You can verify it.
Sufi :Rumi has a saying.
Yogi: He is Mevlevi by the way.
SHRI MATAJI: Hum?
Yogi: He is from the part of Mevlevi, Mevlana. Jalaladdin Rumi.
Yogi: Whirling dervish.
Sufi :He says; while in a commune. He says…
SHRI MATAJI: But he also didn’t say how you become,
Yogi: She says, how you become, how you become a mevlevi (follower of Rumi)?
Sufi : Myself ?
SHRI MATAJI: how, what to do-
Sufi : It is a long journey.
SHRI MATAJI: You see, whatever he was, he was great and he has written about his own understanding and feelings.
Yogi: He should tell you about his feelings, how he became Mevlevi?
SHRI MATAJI: He didn’t say that.
Yogi: No, he says that Mevlana, he didn’t explain openly how to become.
SHRI MATAJI: No, no, no, he didn’t, he didn’t. He didn’t. I agree, what he has done, he said is- what is has talked that after becoming a Realized soul, what you think what you talk and it’s like, you can say, the Chinese system of Tao, same thing, same thing. Tao also is a system in which he describes what happens to a person who is a Tao. The one who is a Realized soul,what happens to him? How he is above everything, how he works out, how he has no fear. But that is what you are saying how it is. But how to achieve it? They never told.
Sufi : They elucidate, they elucidate. It is in Masnavi (Rumi’s book).
SHRI MATAJI: How human beings achieve it? And that too, collectively.
Sufi :It is difficult for communities to reach, because first of all, something has to happen, people have to have a desire, all those people in these communities, these society’s desire is for worldly blessings, worldly pleasures.
SHRI MATAJI: No, no, no. Not now. Now it’s a different thing. Because the world is so much full of struggle and strive and all that. This has started. All over the world, there are thousands of people-
Sufi :It was the same at his time also. There was war at the time of Rumi also. The Mongols were coming by invading all the Turkish provinces. Rumi also came to Konya because he escaped from war.
SHRI MATAJI: But this is a special time. It’s already predicted in our scriptures also. In Indian scriptures, that this is the time where people will get their Self-realization collectively.
SHRI MATAJI: In your Italy only, in your country only, there are so many who have got it.
Sufi :Inshallah
Yogi: He says, “Inshallah” [If God wills].
Sufi :Turkey has a different situation from other Islamic countries. It is the Sufi culture that keeps Islam alive in us.
Sufi :I mean, it is very different from Saudi Arabia, even from Egypt, Libya, and African countries.
SHRI MATAJI: But one Sufi cannot make others Sufis, it’s the point. But in Sahaja Yoga, we can make thousands.
Sufi : As those dervish lodges are closed nowadays, it is possible to talk about everything. They were doing this. They didn’t, but they all have a tread , a tree. So it goes as an upward interaction. For example, a person leaves 10 successor behind him, his thing is looking after these successors. There were thousands of dervish lodges. When only Istanbul had a population of 500 thousand, that half of it was Muslim at that time.
Sufi : There were 520 dervish lodges.
SHRI MATAJI: I know, I know that’s why it’s so important for me. But to give it collectively and to give the pure knowledge is very important.
Sufi : To give this to the masses, you can give culture to the masses, but you cannot make them Sufis. In order to become a Sufi, you also need education and a doctrine. So now, you can give a lot of hygiene information a person, you can give a health culture to the masses, but you cannot bring up an ear specialist from among the masses. This is a special education like a medicine course.
Yogini: Mr Emin, now Shri Mataji is also trying to explain this, how do you convey this information to people.?
Sufi : You give a superficial culture, but it will be very shallow. Yes, you can teach a little avoidance of sin, a little self-care etc. It’s like to teach how to avoid of microbe, hygenie culture or something like this.
Yogi: If you allow, She will tell it Herself.
Yogi: It’s spontaneous awaking, without effort. It’s not coming from the brain, it’s coming from inside and it is happening in no time, like this.
Yogi :Now there is a small difference there that needs to be captured Sahaja Yoga does not say anything different from Islam in terms of knowledge and sayings.
Sufi :No, I’m not saying it’s different, now the big crowds…
Yogi: That is what I am trying to mention..
Sufi :… There is no such thing as making the people like Sufis, that is, raising thousands, hundreds of thousands Rumis. Even the prophet cannot make his believers like a prophet, but He brings up them to a certain point. Alis was were brought up, Abu Bakr was brought up but then people leave. Then there’s a thing, that’s breaking loose from the impact of the dissipation Source when you get away from it . Prophet Abraham was a prophet and Ishmael was his son. Both of them were devoted to Allah, but it says in the Qur’an that, a time came and their children abandoned salaat, abandoned worship and fell into sin, and took the ill way .
Yogini: Now Shri Mataji knows all of them too, She will tell you a system, if you will excuse us, She will tell you how.
Sufi :You are welcome, no, this is not the work of the crowds. This is the education of those who are willing very much, very ambitious and believes in this work, who are fully committed themselves to this work, but we can just give its culture with the current communication tools. If Rumi had television, he could have reached thousands of people, not just fifteen or twenty people.
Yogi: In Sahaja Yoga, we don’t need to do big penances, tapasya, dancing, this and that. It is just a spontaneous happening. In her presence, the Kundalini awakens, goes up and we get this enlightenment and then the full knowledge of Muhammad, Jesus, comes to us spontaneously.
SHRI MATAJI: Complete, absolute.
Yogi: Now what you said…
Yogi: Without effort.
Yogi: This is the intellectual part of it. Information, cultures, that can be told on television is purely a mental job. In the presence of Shri Mataji, with the awakening of the inner energy that is called Kundalini, one gets this knowledge spontaneously in a second and automatically. If there is no pure desire, this is not going to happen in a person anyway. You are right there, but everyone who has that desire is experiencing a spontaneous awakening thanks to Shri Mataji’s Sahaja Yoga, and we can call this state as enlightenment, that occurs with the awakening of this energy that we call kundalini, when the person experiences this energetic enlightenment, it is much easier to absorb information. Shri Mataji has been saying persistently in this period, for years, in the world, this is a the case in all teachings, in Sufism, in different Hindu teachings, in other deep spiritual knowledge, there is an elite people and only this people can reach it and the masses cannot. Shri Mataji claims the opposite.
Sufi : She, herself said something, our Master, the Prophet told about the spiritual ascension, but those who listened to Him, they understand it as, He got on the white horse and elevated, and flew away to the sky in real, while the Prophet was still alive.
Yogi: Anyway…
Sufi : So there is no such thing as everyone gets it right way.
Yogi: In thousands, all over the world, they just put the hands like this
and the get awakened. You see, their eyes sparkling.
Sufi : I do not object to what She said. I’m trying to explain that issue is very difficult.
SHRI MATAJI: But he is a Sufi and he is my son.
Yogi: From his knowledge, what he thinks that, it is very difficult because he doesn’t know.
SHRI MATAJI: Ah, yes. It used to be, not now
Sufi : I am a professor at the faculty. I have been teaching children for 4 years. Let’s say in a class of 80 people for example, 8 of them understand me as a eleve at the end of four years, 70 of them still do not.
SHRI MATAJI: No, you go the other way round. Sahaja Yoga is the other way round.
SHRI MATAJI: First, we make them the Sufis and then we give them the Quran.
Yogi: Now even though there is no difference in understanding in Sahaja Yoga, but let’s just say the technique is different. First, this enlightenment is experienced by the presence and teachings of Shri Mataji and knowledge comes after this. There is no enlightenment with knowledge, but first enlightenment with energy, enlightenment with Kundalini, and then giving information to the people who attained the enlightenment.
SHRI MATAJI: That’s the way it is.
Yogi: It works the opposite way
Sufi : I understand, I understand what She is saying. Now, for example, it comes to my mind and now I ask them, for example, She herself is Hindu.
Yogi: She is not, She is not
Sufi :In India too, this Lady…, sir,
Yogi: She is not Hindu
Sufi : Where is She from?
Yogi: Her origin, She was born as a Christian, but She is very deep in these teachings…..
Sufi :I mean, She is from India, isn’t She?
Yogi: She is from India.
Sufi : Alright.
Yogi: Only after the awakening, the scriptures can be understood.
Sufi : Isn’t She from India? How effective can She be in a society where She knows it’s language and culture?
Yogi: It’s going very fast right now. Forget about India, This is happening in the whole world. In other words, when you go, you may encounter millions, hundreds of thousands…
Sufi : No, now I am not talking about partisans, She has got a lot of fans, I also sympathize to Her, for example, this is something like, I read this book and oh it’s a good thing.
Yogi: When she gave conferences, many professors, university professors, teachers of Quran, they came to Shri Mataji and they said, “The way you explain, Shri Mataji, the Quran, it was never understood before” and never had…
SHRI MATAJI: Fundamentalist, so many fundamentalists.
Yogi: I remember on thing in Delhi…
SHRI MATAJI: First, you give them the experience of the All-pervading Power of “Ruh”. Once they get the experience, then they go deep.
Sufi : So you first open the door, then turn on the lamp and put things in order.
Yogi: Exactly.
Sufi : then you are furnishing the room.
SHRI MATAJI: And then get it. It’s correct. Correct! That’s all it is.
Sufi :But not every door opens easily tough. The lock is getting rusty.
Yogi: But Shri Mataji has the key, to all the doors. She has the master key.
She has taken on a very high mission. This is not the job of every brave person. I hope this will be useful and successful. So we pray to Her,
SHRI MATAJI: He has to get many Sufis. If you want to change the world, you can’t manage it with one or two. Even to understand Quran or Bible or anything, you have to have that eyes. In Sahaja Yoga also, also “vidya” [knowledge],
Sufi : In fact, everything should be looked at from the soul perspective this flower and the tree should be looked at from the soul perspective.
SHRI MATAJI: is what are all the centres are there, what are the problems of the centres and we have seen that people have cured physically, mentally and also, they become, what they call, thoughtlessly aware. So, all the religions have talked about it. It’s not only Quran, it’s not only Bible, it’s not only Gita. All the religions have said the same thing.
Wife of Sufi : so how will this be, to get this spiritual health
Sufi : You will solve the problems, spiritual problems.
Wife of Sufi : it comes to the same place you said
SHRI MATAJI: What she said?
Yogi: She is asking, “How is that possible?”
SHRI MATAJI: It’s possible because God has made within us all the arrangements. He is a great organizer and we have within us that power, that’s the Mother Power which rises and pierces through your fontanelle bone area and makes you one connection with that All-pervading Power, the “Ruh”
Yogi: Excuse me, here in Sufizm, also there is a terminology for that moment. It is called “Enel Hak” [I am the Truth or I am not far from God]
SHRI MATAJI: In this religion.
Yogi: “Anal Haq (En-el Hak)”, saying, I am God. Saying, I am God.
SHRI MATAJI: I am religion.
Yogi: I am religion, I am God.
Sufi : No, this is not meant I am God
Yogi: In other words, I am a part of whole, a part of God. I am also part of God.
Sufi : He says, I’m the truth.
SHRI MATAJI: No, no, you become. Actually, you become.
Yogi: Yes, the Truth. I am the Truth.
SHRI MATAJI: You become. You don’t have to have a certificate. You just become. First, your hands start speaking. You know what are these centers are within you. Every knowledge, perfect knowledge within is available
.