VOA ITV Interview in New Jersey (USA). 1 August 2002.
Interviewer: … also She was promoted even by Bhrigumuni, the ancient astrologer, in Nadi Granth. And that’s what Mataji talks about all the time: how to get Self Realization, how to get the absolute knowledge and the absolute truth.
Sahaja Yoga, as we know, is the spontaneous union of the individual consciousness with the Divine Power through the awakening of our Kundalini which many times remains dormant in our system.
Mataji, it’s a pleasure to talk to You right in Your home turf, in New Jersey, and tell us … I know last four years ago I met You. It was a great experience, and I want to tell our viewers again what it is all that You’ve been doing, promoting Sahaja Yoga for the last thirty years now all over the world.
Tell us again briefly for viewers who don’t know what Sahaja Yoga really means and signifies. What does it do and how do we get that absolute knowledge through this discipline?
Shri Mataji: Saha means with. Ja means born. Is born with you the right to get this yoga, is the union with the Divine. So this is your birthright. All human beings have this right to get the awakening of their Kundalini by which they become one with the Divine Power. This is the real yoga.
Interviewer: Right, and as I said, even the ancient sages and astrologers, Bhrigumuni talks about it and You’ve written in Your book also, Meta Modern Era …
Shri Mataji: They all have talked about it, but in those days they used to work on, I would say, thousands of people. Then select one of them. Then cleanse them. And then they used to give them Realization.
Now the difference of this modern Sahaja Yoga, you can call it, is this: that you first give them awakening. Let them see for themselves what’s wrong with them. All right.
Once they find out, let them correct themselves. And then it’s perfect. Because if you try like this, then it will take thousands of years to give Realization to many people. With this method you can give collectively to thousands of people Realization.
Now we have to change the world, and how can we do it on individual basis if you go? This is the best way now; thousands are getting Realization all over. And now they are telling Me it’s in eighty-six countries working out.
So we are going to have a global race, you can call it, a global awakening. Which is very important. And without this awakening, we cannot get transformed. This is to transform you, to completely change you.
Now as you know we have, they say there are six enemies we have within us. In Sanskrit you know them. Now all these enemies, which are lust and greed, and things like that – jealousies, and all. All these can be completely destroyed by Kundalini awakening. You become a different person. You become the Spirit.
Now in all the scriptures it is written “Know thyself.” And that should happen to you, that you should know yourself. Otherwise, all gimmicks are going on. All kinds of gimmicks as I told you last time also. They are of no value. And they’re not going to give you any results. What you should do is to get your Self Realization. It’s not difficult. It’s free. Why not?
Interviewer: But Mataji, how is Your discipline, how is Sahaj Yoga different and unique from other yoga techniques for Self Realization?
Shri Mataji: Others … you see out of them Raja Yoga is called, one Raj Yog. Now Raj Yog actually happens within. What happens, when the Kundalini rises, She closes the chakras. That’s called as khumba. But you can’t do it from outside, you see?
Now supposing you move one wheel of the car. Will the car move? In the same way, your energy has to be awakened.
Now there’s Hatha Yoga which was thousands of years back they were practicing the same way – first cleansing – this, that – but ultimately, they said the same thing what I do. That they said you reach a stage which we call as thoughtless awareness and then doubtless awareness. But in Sanskrit it is thoughtless awareness they have divided in two – Savichar and Nirvichar And in this thing – Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa. They have divided. But we say you become thoughtlessly aware to begin with.
As Jung has said about it. And then beyond that is Nirvikalpa and you have no doubts about yourself. You know yourself, you know everything, when your knowledge is perfect.
Interviewer: But, Mataji, now You said it’s a spontaneous, and we’ve both said, it’s a spontaneous union of our inner consciousness along with the Divine Power. But that’s only for that brief, few seconds that you get that Kundalini awakening …
Shri Mataji: No, no.
Interviewer: But then we have to keep practicing.
Shri Mataji: No, no. You have to grow.
Interviewer: That’s what I want to ask You.
Shri Mataji: You see, you have to grow because it’s like a primule in the seed, you see, which sprouts first. Then it has to grow into the tree. And for that, hardly one month, you have to attend our programs four times or five times. You can become masters. Nothing much to be done. Because they’ll tell you the absolute knowledge. Now supposing on the hands, I told you that time also …
Shri Mataji: … that you can feel the different centers. Now, how to correct them? What are they? All this knowledge has to go to you and that takes hardly any time.
Interviewer: Now, of course You say just like the thumb is creativity and this finger is, you know, being collective and then there is wisdom over here, the integration in the middle.
Shri Mataji: Innocence.
Interviewer: Yes, innocence
Shri Mataji: And wisdom.
Interviewer: Now, but the thing is, you get that Cool Breeze for that brief period of time. But then how does one … You said, you know, you practice for one month. That means we all become realized souls? But there are people like sages and saints in the Himalayas trying to find the absolute truth, and here we do it in one split second.
Shri Mataji: That’s how. Because the times are such. This is Ghor Kali Yuga. At this time it has to happen. It has to happen that way. Of course, I must say that I did study human beings, their permutations and combinations. And when I was forty-seven years of age, then I found out the real way of crossing it. And then I started working out with others.
Interviewer: So You tried other disciplines as well?
Shri Mataji: First of all I had to find out what’s wrong with these human beings. Because I was born on a different level. So I used to study everyone: Why are they not becoming realized souls? Then I found out they had problems. Then I found out only how these combinations can be worked out and all of them can get Realization.
That’s how it has become collective. Any discovery, if it is not collective, it is useless.
Shri Mataji: All the saints have suffered. Everybody has suffered. If they had people like Me who would have said, “No, all the people should get it,” then it’s not so difficult. Though there are people who are little bit go against Me because I say they are false. That’s it.
Interviewer: We have to know the good from the wrong, and right from wrong.
Shri Mataji: Of course. We must find out. So many people are lost like that.
Interviewer: But then You said that you have to practice. Do You think that those people who have practiced Sahaja Yoga have totally transformed their lives or are they going back to their same selfish selves or does the transformation really become a permanent thing in their life?
Shri Mataji: Ninety-nine-point-nine percent are. Maybe little bit might be some person, may not. But what is My experience is that they become absolutely, absolutely all right.
Interviewer: Now, You have kind of modified it for the modern day times.
Shri Mataji: Ah, yes.
Interviewer: Now You tell me the ancient Sahaj Yoga technique …
Shri Mataji: Ancient Sahaja Yoga I told you is in Patanjali Yoga they have written down. They have ashtangas, out of which these acrobats are only wee part of one of them. So all that you do, and this and that and then the guru finds it out. He might even beat you. He might even hang you on the well, do all kinds of things just to put down the ego.
Sahaja Yoga is the other way round, first you get your Realization and then know what’s wrong with you, yourself. Like people will come and say, “Mother, please help me, my Agnya is caught.” This chakra. Means he has ego. Nobody would say that to anyone that “I have got ego,” will they say?
Interviewer: Right, right, right. So they can actually figure out themselves what the …
Shri Mataji: You become introspective. You see inside yourself that this is wrong. Take it out.
Interviewer: How long does one have to practice every day – keep the minimum time. How many hours one should practice to be introspective and get that Realization continuously coming to them.
Shri Mataji: I told you, one month.
Interviewer: No, after that.
Shri Mataji: After that, in the morning if you do about five minutes meditation.
Interviewer: That’s it?
Shri Mataji: That’s all, and evening about ten minutes.
Interviewer: A lot of people say do two hours, you know, ten percent of your time.
Shri Mataji: These are modern times, I know that. (laughs)
Interviewer: I know You feel that in Kali Yug this is the only … But they say also, Mataji, in Kali Yug, Bhakti Yoga, Bhakti Path is the right way.
Shri Mataji: Now see. On that, bhakti yog is there. Shri Krishna has talked about it. He said, “Either you do bhakti.” You see, He was very intelligent and He knew that human beings are stupid. So He tried to play with them. He said, “You do bhakti. You can give Me water, flower, everything, it’s good. But Ananya Bhakti you do – when you are not the other.” Without Realization, you are other. See how He played on the words? Now people are doing bhakti after bhakti. Nothing they get.
Secondly, He said that you do Karma Yoga ananya. That whatever work you do you put at the Lotus Feet of the Lord. Now people, many people, say that yes Mother, whatever we do, we put at the Lotus Feet of the Lord. Even if we murder somebody you put at the Lotus Feet of the Lord. What He was meaning that is not possible. As long as you have ego, you cannot put it at the Lotus Feet of the God. So, you get rid of your ego, that’s what He was meaning, means Sahaja Yoga.
The first thing that He preached is Gyana Yoga. Ours is gyana yoga. By you being sthitaprati, realized soul, ours is Gyana Yoga by in you get all the knowledge.
Interviewer: Even when you say when you bow down that’s why there you’re saying, you know, I am giving my ego away, sacrificing – that’s exactly you do when you bow.
Shri Mataji: That is it. That is it.
Interviewer: Now how does it emotionally, psychologically, physiologically change the person?
Shri Mataji: All right, now we have seven centers within us – the lowest center, the first one, is for our morality and innocence.
Interviewer: Mooladhara, right?
Shri Mataji: Mooladhara. Then the second one and third one, and fourth, fifth, sixth. All of them are responsible for our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual being. So when the Kundalini passes through them, She integrates them together. One thing. She enlightens them. She enriches them. And then She connects them to the All Pervading Power. So the problem is solved because all these problems are because of the chakras, of the centers which are in problem.
Interviewer: But a lot of people say, “Why don’t we start with the seventh chakra? Let’s go to the top chakra and start to enlighten that chakra without going to the Kundalini.” A lot of people say bypass the Kundalini and let’s go to the …
Shri Mataji: You can’t.
Interviewer: … seventh chakra and move on. Forget the other chakras.
Shri Mataji: You shouldn’t, you see, decide something like that. Actually, after Realization you, yourself, will know which chakra is catching. And then you will try to completely correct it.
You have to be honest with yourself, you know? Once you know that, you do that. What’s the use of just somebody says do like that? Theories after theories. That’s not going to help. What is actually there, because this is the actualization of becoming. It’s not just talking and trying all tricks, you know?
Interviewer: Does, does sometimes the Kundalini may not rise in all the seven chakras. It may get stuck somewhere in the middle. That’s another … a lot of people say.
Shri Mataji: Some do. Agreed. Some do get. But you can clear it out. It’s not difficult.
Interviewer: Is it easy to clear it out?
Shri Mataji: You see others are there to help. Those who are now all right then they can remove that obstruction. Take it away.
Interviewer: I see. And I believe, Mataji, recently only at the National Institute of Medicine in Washington D.C. they demonstrated the technique of Sahaja Yoga.
Shri Mataji: Oh, they were very much impressed and forty doctors came forward. But then they wanted to test a girl … how far … because I say that on these things (Shri Mataji looks at Her fingertips) you can make out your chakra. So they asked a girl, one doctor asked, “What’s wrong with me?”
(S)he said, “Heart.”
And he had a bypass surgery two months back. They were all amazed. I said, “Don’t have to do all the rigamarole of the diagnosis, just on your fingertips you can say.”
Interviewer: Would You display the technique of Sahaj Yoga for our viewers, Mataji?
Shri Mataji: This first?
Interviewer: The technique of Sahaja Yoga … how to … if a person who wants to be initiated into this technique, what they have to do. If You can demonstrate it for us?
Shri Mataji: Yes. That’s why you have to spend about one month knowing about it, not continuously. I think they have four sessions or five sessions. Immediately you are there. But the American mind is different. I must tell you this. That first they said, “We should have course. Now there cannot be a course. But these boys tried to make it “First chakra, second chakra,” like that. Seven courses.
Then they said what next? Now this is a stupid question, because if you become a master then you don’t say, “What next?” You are a master, you teach.
It’s given all free. Why? Because you have to give it to others. You have to change the whole world, isn’t it?
Interviewer: So, how do you get it. If you can explain to our viewers how. If you can show it to our viewers – the technique.
Shri Mataji: Just like this, you see. Can you take out your shoes?
You’re getting it. Getting cool breeze. In this hand also. See on your head.
Interviewer: That’s it?
Shri Mataji: You got it. That’s it.
Interviewer: Oh. That’s simple. That’s like you put your hands and then you put the Cool Breeze over there. Now what if I don’t get the Cool Breeze?
Shri Mataji: Then I’ll have to work it out.
Interviewer: Then You have to work it. Then, Mataji, You have to come everywhere to each person.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no. You see in a collective them come, in a program. I have My Sahaj Yogis with Me. If there’s someone who doesn’t get, I said, “All right. Look after them.” They come to the stage and they get it.
Interviewer: But does one have to always get that Cool Breeze over the head?
Shri Mataji: Of course. That’s the sign that your nerves are passing that All Pervading Power, you see.
Interviewer: You mean the Ida, and the Pingala and the Sushumna Nadi all are in sync together.
Shri Mataji: Yes they are in balance. And from the Sushumna this has gone up. You see, and then when you are in balance, you get perfectly all right.
Interviewer: Then how does one discover the problems that they may have inside …
Shri Mataji: On your fingertips, here …
Interviewer: Oh, through the fingertips.
Shri Mataji: You can make it out.
Interviewer: Whether it’s hot or cold.
Shri Mataji: Because these are five, six and seven. Five, six and seven. And now this is for the left side (Shri Mataji touches the interviewer’s left hand), is for your emotional side. And this is for your mental side and also for physical side (Shri Mataji touches the interviewer’s right hand). So that’s how you decide.
Interviewer: Oh, so you know which side is giving me the problem.
Shri Mataji: Where is the thing, where is the problem is and what chakra is catching in particular.
Interviewer: Oh, so you can even know from the chakra?
Shri Mataji: Ya, you can know.
Interviewer: Let’s say I have a problem coming in from the middle, middle finger – meaning like I feel as heat over here.
Shri Mataji: This is left Nabhi. This could be when you have diabetes or could be when something wrong with your mother, your relationship with your mother.
Interviewer: I see, that’s how one determines it. So each finger will tell you what is the problem.
Shri Mataji: Yes, what is the problem.
Interviewer: Oh, I generally get heat over here. (Interviewer points at left palm – Sahasrara)
Shri Mataji: Here You get? Here is My, this is Myself here.
Interviewer: Okay, so I’ve got You here.
Mataji tell us, I know You come here touring all the time, tell us, if this is the way to go for Self Realization, what would be Your message to our viewers.
Shri Mataji: Now, the message is like this, now, because this is the Last Judgment, and in this judgment, if you don’t get your Realization, you’ll be lost. So all of the people should take their Realization. This is the Last Judgment time has come.
This is very important to understand. You cannot go on – there are people – there’s a rat race of seeking going on. From one guru – guru shopping, guru shopping, like that. Stop it. And also we Indians are going to the temple, this thing, that thing. Stop it now. There’s nothing wrong in it, but first you get your Self Realization.
Interviewer: Now do You have centers all over USA, do You have one in Manhattan as well they can come to?
Shri Mataji: I don’t know, all over quite a lot, and also I’ve been to Canada. Yes, we also have disciples in the South America we have here and also in Canada. Also, here we have thirty-five centers.
Interviewer: Thirty-five centers. So they can just come to any center, say, “I’d like to learn about this technique” and it’s free of charge.
Shri Mataji: Absolutely free they have to just come, give some time and work it out. If they want this, it’s very easy.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. And is there a number that they can call if they want to …?
Shri Mataji: Ya, ya, there is a number, but I must tell you, very unfortunate in America that mostly the Americans come, Indians are few. I don’t know where are they.
Interviewer: Yeah, it’s funny sometimes we take it as our birthright but we never really practice it. And we go away from our roots and then non-Indians come in and when they adopt everything: Maybe this is the right way to go. And it’s a very sad way of …
Shri Mataji: A sad way. You see, for you people it should be the easiest. You being Indians, it should be the easiest. I don’t know where are they lost. Very few, very few Indians come.
Interviewer: From this program I guess they will understand that they can…
Shri Mataji: Now I am finished with all My programs and I’ll be going back very soon. But when I come next, I would like your listeners, who are mostly Indians, to tell them, “Now don’t lose your time, why don’t you get it? It’s all free.” It’s better to warn them.
Interviewer: Right. Now you said, Mataji, very quickly, You said that you know the problem, can one then fix the problem, like, you know, treat that problem through Sahaja Yoga itself?
Shri Mataji: Of course. You can also fix your problem once you are at that level. Others can fix it for you.
Interviewer: Right, so they’ve got to be little bit more …
Shri Mataji: You treat yourself. I mean, with your own energy. This energy is your own Mother. Your individual Mother, you see. She looks after you. She’ll do everything. She’ll suggest to you. I mean, tremendous things.
Interviewer: So we are actually keeping in touch with our inner dharma.
Shri Mataji: Of course.
Interviewer: Our inner state of righteousness.
Shri Mataji: Inner dharma builts in. You cannot be adharmi after this. You cannot. If you become, your hands will start burning. You cannot. And people give up everything.
You know now they are going to … they have offered us that we should do something for the drug addicts. So many drug addicts have been cured. Ah, drinking, drunkards, everything.
Interviewer: All addictions and compulsive disorders.
Shri Mataji: Ya.
Interviewer: I see.
Shri Mataji: Very, very, you see, important thing is that you have to become your Self.
Interviewer: But also the important thing is once they have gotten that Realization, they have to continue practicing every day.
Shri Mataji: A little bit grow. And then you give it to others, then you understand it much better. You want to do it because you become so compassionate. See, you become so compassionate, you want to do it.
Interviewer: Do they get some sort of an experience also, like a spiritual experience once they get Realized? Like, You know, when they say when you are meditating you through some sort of enlightened kind of path and you get these spiritual experiences. This is not that way.
Shri Mataji: No. No. You become absolutely silent. And experiences are like there are lights you see around Me and photographs like that, miraculous. Lots of photographs are there. So the Paramachaitanya is trying to convince people that now take your Realization from Me.
Interviewer: Right. So that itself You’ve come to know that you are the soul, you know, Atma, Paramatma, the relationship.
Shri Mataji: Yes. Yes.
I knew it from the day I was born. As you know you were a human being, I knew this. But you have to have humility. To do this work you cannot show off and make a big band out of it. It has to be very humble work. And that’s why I think the people were not so much impressed because here you see a big show, people do all kinds of things. What’s the use? All this is all absolutely I think is duggery. That’s not the way.
Interviewer: You’ve kept that path of humility …
Shri Mataji: Ya. Of course.
Interviewer: … and brought so much of Self Realization to people.
Shri Mataji: That’s the thing you should have. People talk of Self-Realization. There was one fellow who met Me, he said, “I was trying something for twelve years for Self-Realization.” I said, “Now, all your search has going to be finished here.”
Interviewer: So no mantras, nothing just …
Shri Mataji: Nothing.
Interviewer: … be yourself.
Shri Mataji: Later on. Later on for a chakra, you might need a mantra, but you will know, yourself, what mantra to be used.
Interviewer: I see, the Realization comes from within you.
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, no. I mean this chakra is like this, that chakra is like this. Now, so who’s the deity, accordingly you do.
Interviewer: That’s great, Mataji. Well, I wish you all the very … all the big success that You’ve been having in all the centers, and when I say success I hope all our Indian viewers also join in Your Sahaja Yoga technique.
Shri Mataji: And now you see also so many diseases we have cured – cancer, everything. Except for AIDS and this Alzheimer’s. Not that we cannot cure, we have cured. But they’re extremely rude people, specially these Alzheimer’s people are. They abuse you, say all kinds of things. And the other ones think they’re martyrs. AIDS people think they’re martyrs. Now what to do with them? Unless and until they realize there’s something wrong in it. It’s difficult.
Interviewer: So you’ve treated people with cancer even in the state of remission, when the disease is in remission or when it’s full blown?
Shri Mataji: Quite.. I mean one we have cured at, absolutely at the galloping state.
Interviewer: Is that right? I see.
Shri Mataji: Can be. But we are not doctors, we don’t want to do that. But it can be cured. We have a hospital, also, in India, a very big hospital in Vashi, very near Bombay. And also we are doing other social work like destitute women.
Then also we are working for the … we have an academy of music and all kinds of things. So we are also socialistic that way because we want to give it to everybody – the peace, the joy of life.
Interviewer: Thank You very much, Mataji.
Shri Mataji: May God bless you.
Interviewer: It was a pleasure to talk to You.
Shri Mataji: Thank you.
Interviewer: Our guest in Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, in Her ashram, Mataji Nirmala Deviji talking about the path of Self Realization using the central nervous system to awaken the power of Kundalini. And using Sahaja Yoga to become enlightened and treating yourself and becoming free of disease.
I’m Rita Lobo. Thank you for watching.
H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi