Interview

Vienna (Austria)

1982-09-28 Interview Vienna Austria DP Opt HD, 22'
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1982-0928 Interview Vienna Austria

Interviewer: Aww that’s interesting, that’s most interesting. I listen to All India radio quite a lot at home at short wave. [Shri Mataji laughs] wonderful. Fine, but I think we can record. 

The interviewer addressing to the cameraman/Technician: You are ok? Are we running? Good.

The time is ten past seven which is the evening rounds up on Blue Danube radio with Alan King My guest tonight is Shri Mataji Nirmal Devi Indian spiritual leader and teacher of Sahaja Yoga. She lives in London and she married to the Secretary General of the International Maritime Organisation of the only UN Agency based in England and she is here in Vienna for just a couple of more days. 

Mataji many welcomes to Blue Danube radio, thank you for joining us here.

Shri Mataji: Thank you very much.

Interviewer: Now there are many types of yoga, your particular form, what is its purpose, what is particular and special about it?

Shri Mataji: Sahaja- Saha means with and ja means born with you. So, it is a Yoga means the union with the Divine is born with you. This right to be united to the Divine is born with you. And is spontaneous. Means it happens through a living force of the living God. It is a living happening, the living happening of any evolutionary process. So, it is the breakthrough of the last which Yung has described as we have to be collectively conscious. So, when this thing happens to you, this happening takes place within you, you become collectively conscious. 

It is no brain washing, it is not organising something but it is actually happening and you can see with your naked eyes that at the sacrum bone you see the residual power of Kundalini pulsating, you also can see its raising, you can feel it on top of your head in the fontanelle bone area and you can also afterwards when it breaks through feel a tremendous cool breeze blowing out of your own head. So, one must know that the living processes are done by the power which is All-Pervading power of God’s Love. And we cannot do it. We cannot do our yoga. It has to happen through this spontaneous happening of God’s blessings. 

Interviewer: You mentioned there the power of Kundalini. What is that mean?

Shri Mataji: Power of Kundalini is that, that within us is placed the UNCLEAR(primula/primuled) – the Germinating power of this happening in the sacrum bone. Now, the Sacrum itself means sacred. That means Greeks knew about it that this bone is sacred and in that this Kundalini, the power is placed. It is coiled in three and half coils. And this is what we call is the reflection of the All-Pervading power of God, which we call in Christian languages – Holy Ghost. While this spirit which is the reflection of God Almighty resides in your heart. But the seat of the Spirit is on top of your head. So, when this Kundalini rises, She touches the Spirit and then you reach a subtler awareness which is higher than human awareness by which you become collectively conscious. You become. 

Interviewer: I would like to discuss with you in a few minutes exactly what feeling you get and what affects you but you mentioned also the word spontaneous something which you can’t make happen or simply occurred but don’t you help people to achieve this?

Shri Mataji: Yes, it is something like this-one enlighten light can enlighten another light. 

Interviewer: Aha.,

Shri Mataji: For example, if you get your realisation, if you become realised and you know how to raise the Kundalini, such a person is called as a Sahaja Yogi, if you become that you give realisation to people. There was one gentleman who got realisation and he gave realisation to ten thousand people in Indian villages. One person.

Interviewer: But how long would that take?

Shri Mataji: That takes a very short time.

Interviewer: Really?

Shri Mataji: Is a split of a second actually. But if you have some hangs up, if you are a problematic person or you are complicated then it takes a little time. But it works out with everyone I have seen, it has worked out. 

Interviewer: I believe you have a very strong views on some of the other gurus or so-called gurus some who appeared to disappear with large sums of money. People would charge their followers to come and see them. What are your views on that?

Shri Mataji: You see, western people are so naive, they don’t understand that how can you pay for anything that is the gift of God? For example, now you breath. Do you pay for that? Do you pay for a seed being sprouted by the Mother Earth. But the Mother Earth has got the quality- if you put the seed in the Mother Earth, it sprouts by itself. In the same way when you place yourself in front of a person who has the quality to raise the Kundalini, the Kundalini raises whether it is me or you it does not matter. 

Interviewer: But I think the gurus who do charge would say that to do their work they need money, they need premises, they need buildings so the money has to come from somewhere? 

Shri Mataji: No, they live on it. They are parasites. They live on it. They do not just collect money only for the buildings or anything, they collect money because they want to have nice time. They enjoy that money. Its parasitic. I mean any person would not accept a parasitic life. Means they are even lower than you. So, how can they be your gurus who take money from you? You cannot charge money for it. That’s one thing you is sure. 

Interviewer: How in that case do you personally financial work? 

Shri Mataji: See, I don’t need much finances. For example, now I am working in London. My husband is posted there, he looks after me and he pays also partly for my travelling mostly and I also there are some books that are written and little money comes out of that and it can be managed and the boys have taken some place on hire where they live and they manage their own show. I don’t need their money at all. What is the need? 

Interviewer: So, you feel that it’s something you should do for no payments and obviously you are doing this work do you feel a  compulsion to do it? Do you feel you must go out and do what you are doing?

Shri Mataji: Yes, it must be shared otherwise, you don’t enjoy it. It is to be shared. It’s like I would say I am the greatest capitalist in the sense that I have all these powers within me and I am the greatest communist because I can’t live without sharing it.

Interviewer: How do you discovered you have these power?

Shri Mataji: As I would say that as we discovered we are human beings in the same way I knew that I was like that. 

Interviewer: And what did you do about it when you made that discovery? 

Shri Mataji: You see actually my father was himself a realised soul also and I could discuss with him and talk to him and he told me that first of all you must find out a method by which you can give a mass realisation. Because anything that is done individually, is always in danger of being destroyed. Like one person is saying something and the others don’t understand, that is a very difficult situation. Supposing somebody is born in the tenth floor and he sees something in the tenth floor and others are all on the basement, they can’t see that. So, it is better to raise them little higher to see that there is something beyond. Otherwise, they will never understand it. 

Interviewer: I believe for one time in your life you worked with Mahatma Gandhi?

Shri Mataji: Yes, I was with him when I was a child absolutely in my childhood and I worked with him in the sense that he used to be very kind to me and he asked many questions about how to deal with the spiritual 

Interviewer: talks over a phone …

I am sorry I will ask you a question again will take that point I had to cut the tape afterwards, I will ask you once again. I believe in your childhood you worked with Mahatma Gandhi and you knew him. What sort of experience was that?

Shri Mataji: Mahatma Gandhi was a very practical man and we needed him very much for the emergency to had to get our freedom and he brought the, we can say the ship to the shore but now we cannot carry the ship with us. Now we are free people and we have to think about our spiritual growth. 

Interviewer: What sort of man was he? What sort of memories do you have with him?

Shri Mataji: Tremendous. One has to learn a lot from him specially about money as you were asking me questions about money. He was so particular about his public money that he used to save it more than his own blood. And I have seen him doing it even one single pie could not be wasted. He was a very honest man. Extremely honest person for the public money. 

Interviewer: Now, lets get back to your work as a spiritual leader, when somebody comes along to one of your lectures, what exactly do you teach them and do you do anything practical at that time?

Shri Mataji: Yes, very much. It is all practical. First of all I explain to them what it is and how it works out, what subtle centers we have within us, also I give them the medical  gross names which are manifested by the subtle centers and explain to them scientifically all those things, and then I just tell them put their hands towards me just like as you do Namaz sort of a thing. And when they put their hands towards me, suddenly they find a cool breeze starts coming out of their head and they start feeling the cool breeze in their hands. But there is a big mechanism behind it. Like a switch if you put on here, you see, it is not only just a switch that you put on it works out, it has a big organisation behind it. 

So, there is a big Divine organisation. Then gradually I teach them what are the Divine laws and how it works out and also, I teach them how all other incarnations are related to each other, how all other religions are related to each other in their essences and how human beings have killed all of them, and our fighting about the dead things. 

Interviewer: And when you actually do the practical work when people put out their hands towards you, does it work for everybody? 

Shri Mataji: Practically it works for everybody. But some people take more time. Supposing somebody is a patient of cancer, they takes time. More time than others. Somebody who is supposing a mad man, even mad people have been cured with this. So, you will be amazed that even a mad person can get realization. So, they take more time, their reactions are little different. But practically everyone who has come to me has got it. 

Interviewer: And when this actually happens? What feeling does a person get apart from the cool breeze, what long term gain is to the person?

Shri Mataji: See, the cool breeze is long term all the time is the cool breeze is nothing but the all-pervading power of God. And this all-pervading power first time we start feeling it because it is subtler and we have to become subtler. And when our awareness becomes subtler, then only we start feeling it, we start using it. Now, this power has got a power above all other powers I would say. Obviously, you can see that you can feel another person’s centers. You can feel your centers because the fingers denote which problem you have because these centers are represented on the finger tips and as I would say Mohammad sahab has clearly said that your hands will speak when resurrection time will come. Like that our hands start reporting. Supposing, you want to ask a question ‘Is there God?’. Immediately tremendous breeze will come and say yes. If you want to ask about a guru, whether he is a fake guru or a real guru, just put your hands and you can see that it becomes hot. Sometimes even you get blisters on your fingers you see if he is a horrible evil genius, you get blisters for a short time like that. Apart from that, you get the power to raise the Kundalini of others. 

Interviewer: Its not something which you would think people should do that if somebody has this enlightenment this ability something they should go out and do, to help other people?

Shri Mataji: Yes – You see, it is like you don’t put the lamps under the table once you are enlightened you want to give. Because you become so relaxed and so blissful and your tensions all disappear and you become a different person. Like an egg becoming a bird, you see the bird must fly. 

Interviewer: Ahaa, and when you are actually, when you taught somebody how to achieve themselves, how to realise themselves, how do they then continue your teachings in their day-to-day life? Is it a long time consuming process of exercises every day? What does one actually do?

Shri Mataji: You see, there isn’t much exercise in our Sahaja Yoga but, we do use exercises in case you have some physical problems with your centers because also the centers are placed in your spinal cord and there could be some problem, physical problem there. So, we tell them the exercise which is to be taken for a particular center, then also we tell them how to raise the Kundalini of your own so that more strands of Kundalini open up to give you greater vision of Sahaja Yoga. And also, we tell them how to maintain and establish it. Once it is established, it is there. But it makes a person absolutely dynamic because he is so relaxed. Even the enjoyment of life is so great and the satisfaction is so much that it’s a different life altogether. 

Interviewer: But if somebody is so relaxed, doesn’t it make it difficult for them to perform in their job if they have a job which puts them under stress?

Shri Mataji: Oh, they are much better off, because those who are in tension are creating trouble themselves and for others. But when you are relaxed, you can see it much better. You are a witness of a whole thing. You know how to solve the problem, you know how to do it and your dimensions are much more. 

Interviewer: You’re based Mataji in England normally in London I believe and you are here just for short time, will you give the time and dates of when people can see you in a couple of moments, but when you are working, whatever the parts of the world you are in? What sort of age group most of the people who come to you see you?

Shri Mataji: I would say from any age to any age. I just can’t say. But mostly these are the young people I would say from about sixteen to forty years of age or forty-five years of age mostly they are. But we have elderly people also, and very small children, newly born(s) also can be realised souls born, because these there are so many children who are born realised. People don’t understand what they are like. But we know what they are because they give vibrations, they understand vibrations, they suggest vibrations. So, we have all age groups. And you will be amazed to know in England we have two boys UNCLEAR, and one gentleman who has studied theology and all that who got realisation. Three of them went to Ireland, a place with such violence and all that. And that is the place where they went and give realisations to seven hundred people.

Interviewer: Really?

Shri Mataji: Yes, it’s tremendous. And the whole thing will change when this takes over.

Interviewer: Do you think that will happen, do you foresee that happening within perhaps our lifetime?

Shri Mataji: Of course, of course it has to happen. The time has come. This is the solution of all our problems. 

Interviewer: And when you, which is obviously an international thing once talking about, when you are travelling, I know you have been travelling to Australia and other countries, do you find an equal acceptance of what you are teaching people wherever you go?

Shri Mataji: Of course, in India it is much more because they know what to expect. They are educated in it you see, they are more cultivated. But not the westernised Indians, it is the Indians who are really Indians- the villages. So, I work in villages and we have thousands of people as my disciples and they are curing people, they are giving realisations, they working it out on their own and they lead a very normal life. But even Australia I would say is another tremendous country which has shown lots of potential. And we have now about seven centers in Australia and twenty-six centers in England. 

Interviewer: But you must be having to finance those centers somehow which brings us back to subject of money? 

Shri Mataji: No, they finance themselves. You see it is like this as I told you they takes some place say ten boys together or boys and girls, they take a place on hire and they stay there and they just do the work. Nowadays in the west, especially, they are all unemployed people. So, what they do, they take a place, live there and they get employment with God. And they don’t feel that frustration of unemployment. 

Interviewer: Now, when you are giving a lecture on demonstrating yourself, do you ever feel, oh I am tired and I don’t feel like it? Or do you always enjoy what you are going to do?

Shri Mataji: Oh, I love it.

Interviewer: Every time? Really?

Shri Mataji: Yes, I feel released. When I give them, I feel released. Because it’s like a load on me. I must release the vibrations. That’s very important for me. 

Interviewer: I believe you once actually cured the president of India of an illness?

Shri Mataji: Yes, in a way I did cure him. He had gone to America for his treatment and I had gone with my husband to see him and in the aircraft. I mean when he was coming he was very serious, absolutely serious as if something is going to happen to him. And then his wife realised, somebody told that I am so and so and she had heard my name, so she asked ‘why don’t you cure my husband?’. He was a great man I should say because I just put my hand on him for ten minutes and he felt absolutely alright, relaxed. He said ‘I’m going to sleep now’. And he walked down. When the plane reached here, he walked down. And he told me that even the line of his operation is alright. This doesn’t show. So, it is true. It’s true.

Interviewer: That must be a fantastic gift to have. So, how do you feel about it?

Shri Mataji: Oh, I just feel it just thing that happens. It’s a nothing to be proud of in any way, nothing to be to think that you have done something because if you are the part and parcel of someone, you are part and parcel of me supposing, like my finger is supposing I tried to sooth my finger, I don’t feel I have done something great for my finger. When there is nobody is the other, then you don’t have such feelings, you just feel its to be done because it’s part of me.

Interviewer: But don’t you feel it’s something you can do which very few people can do with it, you have to get some sort of a recognition of fame or claim some way for it?

Shri Mataji: No, for what should I get claim? Because you see the thing is just recognition, I am not seeking elections, I am not seeking money and as you know by God’s grace my husband has very big fame so that also we don’t need. I just don’t understand why people run after fame which is false. One should not run after fame which is false because they all drop off. There is no need to have fame. What’s the need to have fame also, I just don’t understand.

Interviewer: Well, what about the future? When you finish here in Vienna, where do you go to? Back to London?

Shri Mataji: No, we, after London I mean this is the third time my husband is again unanimously is elected and somehow they like him very much perhaps all these countries who have elected him and I hope they found to re-electing but I hope he retires now 

Interviewer: Aha,

Shri Mataji: because he is very hard worked and I would like to go to India, but I don’t know what is his future is, but I travel so much and he also travels a lot that practically I am in England for at the most three months or so. 

Interviewer: So, you must be busy, must be tiring I would think?

Shri Mataji: It doesn’t tire me so much but sometimes this over travelling sometimes one feels that one should rest but when I am tired, I am better off my vibrations, I may not be able to talk much when I am tired but the vibrations emitted are much more. 

Interviewer: Now, you got one more lecture to go here in Vienna, you have given to already. How well have they gone?  Have you heard a good response?

Shiri Mataji: Very good response. Yesterday we had one and we had lots of people, very good quality people and about eighty people got realisation, wonderful people. I was really amazed. I didn’t hope on the for the first day I didn’t expect it apart from that this is the first visit to Vienna. First time I have come to this place. 

Interviewer: And is there anybody welcome to come and see you who wants to come along?

Shri Mataji: Yes please, I would be very happy, they can come and see me here or in London I am there and we have two Ashrams. In London where they have given us two Unclear (co-ops) two big places where we are operating also. 

Interviewer: Oh, thank you very much for joining us,

Shri Mataji: Thank you very much.

Interviewer: Anybody who would like to see our guest tonight Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, the time is 6:30 tomorrow which is Thursday no, it’s not. The time is 6:30 on Thursday which is 30th of September and the Urania volkshochschule which is at Uraniastrasse number 1 here in Vienna and thank you once again to Mataji Nirmala Devi for joining us on the evening round for from Blue Danube from me, Alan King, thank you for listening and I will see you tomorrow. Have a good evening, Good bye now. 

Shri Mataji: Oh, Thank you very much, very nice talking to you.

Interviewer: It was lovely to meet you.

Shri Mataji: Lovely to meet you. 

Interviewer: I would like to…

Shri Mataji: I hope you will come and see me sometime. 

Interviewer: I was going to say, I would like to very much.

Shri Mataji: Yes please. Should I give you my phone number?

Interviewer: Could you please, that would be so great..

Shri Mataji: Alright, I am so bad at it, I will ask her to tell you my phone number, I am really hopeless in all these materialistic worldly things. 

They will tell you my phone number. Please come and see me. And we have lots of people there, you would like to meet your friends there, and very good clever boys, very intelligent, and the way they are fighting all these gurus is really remarkable

Interviewer: Really?

Shri Mataji: We have such problems of gurus you can’t even imagine, you must put your attentions to it you see, all your young generation will be ruined if you don’t. Drugs also we have corrected, drug addicts and all that but worst are the gurus. 

Interviewer: Yes, that is very bad.

Shri Mataji: Can you give him my phone number?

Yogini: Yes, Shri Mataji. 

(Shri Mataji asking a yogi about the interview.)

Shri Mataji: How was that?

Gregoire: I felt he asked three intelligent questions.

Shri Mataji: Oh, he is an Englishman, I always….Discontinued…